Fear God or Presume acceptance

[Eternally Grateful]

Rhetoric is usually in the present tense. According to your view, the present tense would prove one of two things:

1). John and all his listeners have never been cleansed of their sins, and are therefore, not Christians.

2). John's was present tense speaking to the Gnostics in that church that believed that they had no sin that needed Atonement.

The first makes John contradict EVERYTHING else he says in this Epistle. The second I the only contextual meaning that makes EVERYTHING John says in this Epistle to be true.

or the third

That he was telling people like you not to be so PROUD to think you have made it, And claim you no longer sin, And in fact, telling believers, when they DO SIN (and they will) not to fear. Because they have an advocate. in Christ Jesus that we can go to him, OPENLY CONFESS our sin. and be healed or cleansed from that sin.

But hey, If you want to think your sinless. Feel free. But if you think this, I feal sorry for you. Not even PAUL thought he was totally free from sin, And Peter showed he continued to sin,

I guess they had no victory either huh??

And its not rhetoric, it is fact

WE WE CLAIM WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES

Now I will not Judge you, only God can do that, But John said who is deceived, Its not me who is saying who is decieved

 

[Episkopos]

Spoken like a true catholic.

Whats sad is, I do not think you are catholic are you?

By catholic do you mean someone who reads the bible...or just believes the word?

See we all have different definitions to words.

So you see the believers who read the bible away from a Protestant type of indoctrination as catholic?

Interesting.

No. I am called of Jesus Christ to follow Him. No man or organization as a middleman.

Do you comprehend that?

 

[Candidus]

Spoken like a true catholic.

Whats sad is, I do not think you are catholic are you?

So, you deny the Trinity! Sad.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

By catholic do you mean someone who reads the bible...or just believes the word?

See we all have different definitions to words.

So you see the believers who read the bible away from a Protestant type of indoctrination as catholic?

Interesting.

No. I am called of Jesus Christ to follow Him. No man or organization as a middleman.

Do you comprehend that?

I mean taking the catholic interpretation of Grace

Like it is some form of magic or something.

Amazingly. Not even catholics believe a person is sinless..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And where do you come up with this idea?

 

[Candidus]

or the third

That he was telling people like you not to be so PROUD to think you have made it, And claim you no longer sin, And in fact, telling believers, when they DO SIN (and they will) not to fear. Because they have an advocate. in Christ Jesus that we can go to him, OPENLY CONFESS our sin. and be healed or cleansed from that sin.

But hey, If you want to think your sinless. Feel free. But if you think this, I feal sorry for you. Not even PAUL thought he was totally free from sin, And Peter showed he continued to sin,

I guess they had no victory either huh??

And its not rhetoric, it is fact

WE WE CLAIM WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES

Now I will not Judge you, only God can do that, But John said who is deceived, Its not me who is saying who is decieved

Option #3 is an impossible interpretation. It is an invention designed by people who want their unbiblical sin-and-win theology.

EVERYTHING John writes in this Epistle is against sin, against the existence of it in anyone who would call themselves a Christian.

The argument you float is just a modification of option #1. where 1 John becomes a hopeless contradiction, and embarrassment to what is called Inspired Holy Scripture.

John says, "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin." The word for "sin" is singular. He continues... "And if anyone sins..." (2:1).

You say, "And in fact, telling believers, when they DO SIN (and they will)"... John says "IF" we sin, not "when" we sin (a singular time), does he not? He says the exact opposite of what you claim.

Paul never said that he continued to sin. Peter stumbled, that is where 1 Jn. 1:9-2:1 comes in. There is no proof that Peter was a constant failure, that God is too weak to work His stated will in the believer. When Peter fell, he confessed his sin, he was forgiven his sin, and on top of all that, he was cleansed from that sin. It was not a mere wiping the slate clean, but a real change, a freedom from that sin. "And "IF" anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (2:1).

If a believers sins are already a done deal, then why do we need an Advocate with the Father? Why is there a condition of confessing our sins before we are forgiven our sins? John repeats over and over that sinning is incompatible with being a Christian. There is nothing in this Epistle that says or implies that sin is a necessity and that it continues in the Believer. Yes, John tells us what to do, and how we can be reconciled to God "IF" we have that unexpected incident of sin. The admitted possibility of committing a sin is stated in this Epistle; the expectation of a Believer sinning is not found anywhere in all of Scripture.

 

[Candidus]

And where do you come up with this idea?

From you!

If believing something that a Roman Catholic believes makes it inherently wrong, you cannot possibly be in agreement, or close in agreement with Roman Catholicism on the Trinity and not impugn yourself!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Option #3 is an impossible interpretation. It is an invention designed by people who want their unbiblical sin-and-win theology.

EVERYTHING John writes in this Epistle is against sin, against the existence of it in anyone who would call themselves a Christian.

The argument you float is just a modification of option #1. where 1 John becomes a hopeless contradiction, and embarrassment to what is called Inspired Holy Scripture.

John says, "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin." The word for "sin" is singular. He continues... "And if anyone sins..." (2:1).

You say, "And in fact, telling believers, when they DO SIN (and they will)"... John says "IF" we sin, not "when" we sin (a singular time), does he not? He says the exact opposite of what you claim.

Paul never said that he continued to sin. Peter stumbled, that is where 1 Jn. 1:9-2:1 comes in. There is no proof that Peter was a constant failure, that God is too weak to work His stated will in the believer. When Peter fell, he confessed his sin, he was forgiven his sin, and on top of all that, he was cleansed from that sin. It was not a mere wiping the slate clean, but a real change, a freedom from that sin. "And "IF" anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (2:1).

If a believers sins are already a done deal, then why do we need an Advocate with the Father? Why is there a condition of confessing our sins before we are forgiven our sins? John repeats over and over that sinning is incompatible with being a Christian. There is nothing in this Epistle that says or implies that sin is a necessity and that it continues in the Believer. Yes, John tells us what to do, and how we can be reconciled to God "IF" we have that unexpected incident of sin. The admitted possibility of committing a sin is stated in this Epistle; the expectation of a Believer sinning is not found anywhere in all of Scripture.

So lets put it all on the table..

Do you think you have stopped sin?

When was your last sin?

And do you believe you will never sin again?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

From you!

If believing something that a Roman Catholic believes makes it inherently wrong, you cannot possibly be in agreement, or close in agreement with Roman Catholicism on the Trinity and not impugn yourself!

Nope

I just stated he got his view of grace from the roman church, I stated nothing about the trinity or any other doctrine.

For someone who thinks he does not sin, and is perfect, You sure do assume alot!

 

[marks]

It is God that sees two types of sin, and I believe Him.

When we parse sins, there is more:

Sexual sin is against your own body. This presents another class. Sins against your body.

So we have:

Sins unto death.
Sins not unto death.
Sins against the body.

Are you remembering that both lying and stealing, under the Law, were able to be atoned by sacrifice? So that these sins, which are both, at least to me evidently deliberate, willful, not unto death?

So then it seems to me that there would be:

Sins unto death.
Intentional sins not unto death.
Unintentional sins not unto death.
Sins against the body.

Although you've said that the sins not unto death are those that could be atoned by sacrifice, because they are unintentional.

Again, In Him is No sin. Not some sins.

Why can we not be righteous in Him in all respects? But be it to us according to our faith.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I agree.

Then at the center of it all I don't see where we're not on the same page, but we talk about things differently, which is something I've thought before.

Much love!

 

[Joseph77]

If believing something that a Roman Catholic believes makes it inherently wrong, you cannot possibly be in agreement, or close in agreement with Roman Catholicism on the Trinity and not impugn yourself!

What's to impugn ? That's a good position to be in!

 

[marks]

Yes, I see what you are saying. If Jesus hadn't obeyed God and allowed His crucifixion, we could not be justified of our past sins after we repent unto Him. That is the beginning of our walk. From then on, we, ourselves, obey because His Spirit that did not sin is now in us.

Hi CL,

Concerning our justification.

You know that Grace is more than the good will God shows us in forgiving our sins and adopting us as children, it is the power of God in us to enable us to stand in this life. Grace is God's power that gives us gifts and ministries, ability and understanding, would you agree?

Justification is more than God's declaration that we are righteous.

Justification is the act of making us righteous. Recreation and justification are in a way saying the same thing in two different ways.

This phrase from Romans 6, we are freed from sin, literally, we are justified away from sin. Separated completely from sin forever. Which sins are excepted from that? None, in my view.

We are justified away from sin, that is, we are separated from sin, sin from us, sin is put away from us entirely. How else would our Holy God come and live in us? Share us with sin? I don't think so.

Our lives are training in faith to overcome all sins, to come to see all temptations as provings that show who we are.

Temptations, same word as trials. Contrary experiences that cause the born again to exercise their faith and thereby grow in it. Contrary experiences that either cause us to look to God for what is needed, or that cause us to try to fill the need on our own.

A contrary poster on the forum, an opportunity to feel angry, get snarky, put them in their place, or the opportunity to experience a little more fully the depths of love in loving the unloveable.

In either case, to the regenerate, as we continue in love, God continues to build us into His image. Should we fail from that, it's the opportunityf for us to realize that we need to approach things differently, realizing that God is with me, wanting to love others through me, and to not get in the way of that.

Justification is what happens when we are crucified in Christ, buried, and raised with Him, a new creature, righteous, and truly holy. This is what the new man is, being justified, the condemned sinner is dead, a new man is alive, alive in Christ. If that is the life I am living, there isn't any sin at all. Because, like @Episkopos says, we walk as He walked, without sin, the Spirit living through us.

The only caveat is that generally speaking, I think, we've been taught in all manner of ways that no one lives that way, so there is a general lacking of faith. And be it to us according to our faith.

This is one of the primary disagreements I have with Episkopos is that he teaches that only by God basically grabbing you and pulling you into this faith, you don't have it.

But what I know from both the Bible and life is, that's not true. We've been given an abundant life full of good works there for us to walk in, and we spend all our lives learning more and more how to do that. But just the same, at any moment we are trusting Jesus, not looking to ourselves, but simply knowing that we are at peace with Him, He is our God, He will guide, and deliver, we walk in the Spirit.

Falter in this faith, forget to trust, and just react, that is not of faith. Whatever we do apart from faith in God is sin.

But the bottom line is in our justification. Justification and a new creation. There is no power of the flesh over the new creation. Being empowered by God we are completely free.

The power to live in this life, I think is what we call grace. And the freedom to live in this live, I think is what we call justification.

Much love!

 

[marks]

My post is just following the dogmatic assumptions and logic that some are making, and taking it to it's logical end.

Hardly!

Can you correctly restate the view you argue against?

Just wondering.

Many people seem to like to debate against views they don't actually understand, and that is why they say erroneous things about it. Others just want to make other views look stupid, but still are not able to actually restate someone's view without being insulting.

For myself, if we're going to have a good and meaningful discussion, I find it important to be able to actually understand someone well enough that I can restate to them in my own words what they think to the point that they will agree that I'm correct.

Sometimes that's enough for me to realize I agree with them. Sometimes I continue to disagree, but at least I can talk about what they actually think, and not some derisive parody of their view. I don't find derisive parodies as useful.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your Gnosticism cannot defeat the overwhelming words of God in Scripture. You are correct that God is not blind:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 Jn. 3: 6-10.

God sees! God knows!

In speaking of abiding in Christ, does the Christian always abide? Curious how you would answer, so I can better understand your view.

Much love!

 

[marks]

David was lost for at least 9 months until his son was born. David was only a man after God's own heart in his repentance; not his sin.

Aren't you parsing where Scripture does not parse?

What does it mean, "a man after God's own heart"? The sort of man God would choose for king? A man who's heart perfectly relfects God's heart?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You missed it all, so busy trying to be a good child, David was a man after Gods own heart because HE want Perfect and understood who God was. HE was what God desires us to be, but christians need to boast.

Hi mjrhealth,

Something I realized reading through Kings, you remember that all the kings are compared to David, as either they did or didn't do right like David did. What I realized what that those who were compared favorably to David were those who didn't go after idols. Those who were compared unfavorably to David were those who trusted in idols.

David, for all his faults, for all is sins, never stopped trusting in God. Never went after false gods.

The just shall live by faith.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You can take people to 1 Jn. 1:8 all day long. If they are Christians, it has no application to them at all! You can take people to a single wrenched verse, I can take people to hundreds that say that Christians are to be holy, that sin is incompatible with saving faith... and I have the entire Bible from cover to cover that proves it!

The modern day Gnostic influence is strong in the Church where there is more to be said for sin than against it!

So to be clear, you do now and continue to live a sinless life, this is your testimony?

Much love!

 

[marks]

We CAN abide in Christ for more than a few hours. We can REMAIN in Christ...as in NO LONGER I... for extended periods of time...weeks, months and even years.

At any time that we trust in Jesus, that we've been justified in Him, we will walk in the Spirit.

OF course, being "in Christ" is something all believers are. If we are not in Him, we are not born again.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Grace is unmerited power...in the NT. You are relying on the human understanding...but not God's word.

2 Corinthians 12:9
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

OK...God is speaking...not some theology student. And this is about grace.

Grace is power. The power of Christ. The power of His resurrection. His power in our weak vessels. We have this treasure (grace) in earthen vessels (these mortal bodies).

Philippians 3:10-14
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

His great power usward who believe.

Ephesians 1:19
“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,”

That is what grace is.

But the modern anemic interpretation that denies the power of God goes like this...."for my favour is made perfect in continual sinning?"

So then you are trying to show how forgiving God is by remaining a sinner. Hey...God doesn't need believers like that. He has the whole unbelieving world to show that kind of grace to. But who actually knows the Lord?

These are good too, just wanted to add one of my favorite passages showing power in grace, By the grace of God I am what I am. His grace has made me what I am.

Much love!