Fear God or Presume acceptance

[Episkopos]

Well when you find some truth, let me know

I know of know one who thinks deliverance from sin is a future event.

God delivered us from the power of sin now.

Now. whether we chose to follow God or our flesh in any given moment, That still is up to us..

But it does not mean God has not delivered us.

So then...honestly...you believe that when we abide in Christ we don't sin? That...in Him is NO sin?

Or are you being gnostic and dishonest?

And perhaps you are being confined so much in quarantine that you haven't noticed that at least half the forum doesn't believe in overcoming all sin in this life. And if you were honest you would probably be in that number.

So you may have meant that you were delivered...not from sin...but just the responsibility of being a sinner?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So then...honestly...you believe that when we abide in Christ we don't sin? That...in Him is NO sin?

Or are you being gnostic and dishonest?

And perhaps you are being confined so much in quarantine that you haven't noticed that at least half the forum doesn't believe in overcoming all sin in this life. And if you were honest you would probably be in that number.

So you may have meant that you were delivered...not from sin...but just the responsibility of being a sinner?

When we abide in Christ what happens? is our focus on self or others? Are we taking the love God gives us to overflowing and sharing that love with others?

Can we sin in that state?

Well of course not. nor would we be tempted to.

Seek after the things of the spirit and you WILL NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh

The problem is, Who does that 24/7? DO you?

If you say you do. I take you to 1 John 8,

 

[Candidus]

Whose defending living in sin... I am not ashamed, and HE knows all my faults. Nothing to hide like some.

The answer: You are defending sin!

I don’t know how much plainer God can make it! The wages of sin is death! Wages are what we earn. In life, we work for wages on a job, which gives us money. In the spiritual realm, God says that we earn spiritual wages. “His servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.” (Rom. 6:16). “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,…” (1 Jn. 3:10). “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” (Rom. 8:6). “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not after the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Rom. 8: 12-13). “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezek. 18:4). “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned” in his sin that he hath sinned, in them he shall die.” (Ezek. 18:24) Shame on the person who would discard God’s words on the issue by shoving it all off as something from the past that does not apply to Christians today! It is confirmed in the New Testament as well as the Old. “But every man is tempted, when he drawn is away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err brethren.” (James 1:15).

The wages of sin is death, whether you claim to be a Christian or not! Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death. The atonement did not change the nature of sin so it longer damns, it changes the nature of the believer so they do not sin!

 

[Episkopos]

When we abide in Christ what happens? is our focus on self or others? Are we taking the love God gives us to overflowing and sharing that love with others?

Can we sin in that state?

Well of course not. nor would we be tempted to.

Seek after the things of the spirit and you WILL NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh

The problem is, Who does that 24/7? DO you?

This is a good start! So you do believe that being filled with grace leaves no room for sins. Yes! IF rivers of life are flowing out of us then no sin can fight it's way in against that flowing tide. Being filled with the Spirit. But that doesn't happen automatically. One must seek hard for this. But we can receive His divine touch and bask in the moments we have with God as well.

And this is the first step into the spiritual life. Being led by the Spirit.

So we agree on this.:)

But there is also the faithfulness of God to consider and HIS keeping power. There are different proximities to following the Lord...and there is also the walk in the Spirit to consider.. in humility! Do you have humility?

So I would say, rather than assume you are the closest person to God in the world...or that no one's walk can surpass your own (that would be arrogant)...then LEAVE ROOM for more of God.

We CAN abide in Christ for more than a few hours. We can REMAIN in Christ...as in NO LONGER I... for extended periods of time...weeks, months and even years.

Of course to remain in that place one must also have fully forsaken this world AND be able to rise above the plots of the devil...who is very cunning in his ways. So then we retain the gift of God's purity with a growing in spiritual maturity....until we reach the full stature of Christ.

Do you believe we can attain to the full stature of Christ...the perfect man? Or do you need bible references?

BTW...the 1 John reference is speaking to Gnostics who believe that they are not responsible for the sins they do. It is NOT a verse that denies overcoming in Christ.

Leave room for God.

 

[Candidus]

When we abide in Christ what happens? is our focus on self or others? Are we taking the love God gives us to overflowing and sharing that love with others?

Can we sin in that state?

Well of course not. nor would we be tempted to.

Seek after the things of the spirit and you WILL NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh

The problem is, Who does that 24/7? DO you?

If you say you do. I take you to 1 John 8,

You can take people to 1 Jn. 1:8 all day long. If they are Christians, it has no application to them at all! You can take people to a single wrenched verse, I can take people to hundreds that say that Christians are to be holy, that sin is incompatible with saving faith... and I have the entire Bible from cover to cover that proves it!

The modern day Gnostic influence is strong in the Church where there is more to be said for sin than against it!

 

[Candidus]

You seem hard of hearing

your the one who seems to think God can not do what he said he will do, not me, I KNOW god will do what he promised, I am not the doubter you are

So why don’t you stop denying the power of God, and praising him for what he has done and will do.

Will you believe the Scriptures? Will you believe that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and to save us from our sins? (1 Jn. 3:8, Matt. 1:21). That he who sins is of the devil? (1 Jn. 3:9-10). That we are commanded, "Be ye holy, for I am holy"; not, try to be holy? (1 Peter 1:15,16). That John believed this when he wrote, "My little children, I write these things unto you that you may not sin. (Gk. One time!)? (1 Jn. 2:1). Will you believe the Bible when it says, "if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."? (Romans 8:13). Can you accept that, "the wages of sin is death"? (Rom. 6:23). God said that sin always brings death when He told Adam and Eve, "In the day you eat thereof, ye shall surely die!" Or will you choose to be in poor company by siding with the devil, chanting his soul-damning lie, "Surely, you shall not die"? May I remind you, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom. 6:16). “For sin shall not have dominion over you… (Rom. 6:14). Paul, writing to true believers, Born-Again Christians, "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”

No passage in all of Scripture says that Christians continue to sin, or that because Jesus Atoned for the sins of the whole world, God turns a blind eye to a Christians unbelief by sinning. Suggesting that God can be Just, while He meets out uneven justice, is a blight on the Character of God. You set up a system where God damns unbelievers to an eternity in Hell for the very same sins you say a Christian commits. The contradiction that suggests that God's winks at a Christian's sin, and damns the non-Christian for the very same sins, is not found anywhere in the Bible. The wages of sin is death! This "Sinning Saint" human philosophy is no more credible than being an "Honest Liar"... it just does not exist.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is a good start! So you do believe that being filled with grace leaves no room for sins. Yes! IF rivers of life are flowing out of us then no sin can fight it's way in against that flowing tide. Being filled with the Spirit. But that doesn't happen automatically. One must seek hard for this. But we can receive His divine touch and bask in the moments we have with God as well.

And this is the first step into the spiritual life. Being led by the Spirit.

So we agree on this.:)

But there is also the faithfulness of God to consider and HIS keeping power. There are different proximities to following the Lord...and there is also the walk in the Spirit to consider.. in humility! Do you have humility?

So I would say, rather than assume you are the closest person to God in the world...or that no one's walk can surpass your own (that would be arrogant)...then LEAVE ROOM for more of God.

We CAN abide in Christ for more than a few hours. We can REMAIN in Christ...as in NO LONGER I... for extended periods of time...weeks, months and even years.

Of course to remain in that place one must also have fully forsaken this world AND be able to rise above the plots of the devil...who is very cunning in his ways. So then we retain the gift of God's purity with a growing in spiritual maturity....until we reach the full stature of Christ.

Do you believe we can attain to the full stature of Christ...the perfect man? Or do you need bible references?

BTW...the 1 John reference is speaking to Gnostics who believe that they are not responsible for the sins they do. It is NOT a verse that denies overcoming in Christ.

Leave room for God.

If we need grace, We must still not be perfect

If we are perfect, we no longer have the need for Grace.

Its not to hard to understand.

But first You have to learn what Grace is and what it is for

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You can take people to 1 Jn. 1:8 all day long. If they are Christians, it has no application to them at all! You can take people to a single wrenched verse, I can take people to hundreds that say that Christians are to be holy, that sin is incompatible with saving faith... and I have the entire Bible from cover to cover that proves it!

The modern day Gnostic influence is strong in the Church where there is more to be said for sin than against it!

So John saying if WE say we have no sin (yes he included himself) WE DECEIVE OURSELVES (Again he included himself)

yet it has no bearing on christians.

There you go people. Candidus must not think John was a christian. I mean,He must not be, .If this is not to christians Yet he includes himself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Will you believe the Scriptures? Will you believe that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and to save us from our sins? (1 Jn. 3:8, Matt. 1:21). That he who sins is of the devil? (1 Jn. 3:9-10). That we are commanded, "Be ye holy, for I am holy"; not, try to be holy? (1 Peter 1:15,16). That John believed this when he wrote, "My little children, I write these things unto you that you may not sin. (Gk. One time!)? (1 Jn. 2:1). Will you believe the Bible when it says, "if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."? (Romans 8:13). Can you accept that, "the wages of sin is death"? (Rom. 6:23). God said that sin always brings death when He told Adam and Eve, "In the day you eat thereof, ye shall surely die!" Or will you choose to be in poor company by siding with the devil, chanting his soul-damning lie, "Surely, you shall not die"? May I remind you, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Rom. 6:16). “For sin shall not have dominion over you… (Rom. 6:14). Paul, writing to true believers, Born-Again Christians, "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”

No passage in all of Scripture says that Christians continue to sin, or that because Jesus Atoned for the sins of the whole world, God turns a blind eye to a Christians unbelief by sinning. Suggesting that God can be Just, while He meets out uneven justice, is a blight on the Character of God. You set up a system where God damns unbelievers to an eternity in Hell for the very same sins you say a Christian commits. The contradiction that suggests that God's winks at a Christian's sin, and damns the non-Christian for the very same sins, is not found anywhere in the Bible. The wages of sin is death! This "Sinning Saint" human philosophy is no more credible than being an "Honest Liar"... it just does not exist.

John said people born of God can not continue in sin. (1 John 3)

I have said this numerous times

You seem hard of hearing. or selective hearing?

So, You think you have achieved sinless perfection? Why have I not heard you declare this before?

 

[Episkopos]

If we need grace, We must still not be perfect

If we are perfect, we no longer have the need for Grace.

You are confusing grace with mercy. Grace IS that touch from God...it is His presence and keeping power. It is also the power that raises the dead and heals the sick. It is God's strength in us. His grace in OUR weakness.

You should do a study on grace....apart from the modern errors. :)

Its not to hard to understand.

But first You have to learn what Grace is and what it is for

Many people misuse and misunderstand the purpose of grace...which is to help us INTO the holy walk with God.

But first you need to unlearn what you have been taught by purveyors of false grace. God is merciful and forgiving. But that's not what grace is. Grace takes a person into being IN Christ. And by grace we remain there.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are confusing grace with mercy.

no. Grace is unmerited or unearned favor.

Mercy is given BECAUSE of Grace,

Grace IS that touch from God...it is His presence and keeping power. It is also the power that raises the dead and heals the sick. It is God's strength in us. His grace in OUR weakness.

You should do a study on grace....apart from the modern errors. :)

You should do a study on grace, apart from romanistic/catholic ideas.

Many people misuse and misunderstand the purpose of grace...which is to help us INTO the holy walk with God.

But first you need to unlearn what you have been taught by purveyors of false grace. God is merciful and forgiving. But that's not what grace is. Grace takes a person into being IN Christ. And by grace we remain there.[/QUOTE

The mere fact this earth still exists and men walk the fact on it is based on Gods grace.

Apart from Gods grace, mankind would have been wiped out when adam brought sin into the world.

 

[Candidus]

Seek after the things of the spirit and you WILL NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh

The problem is, Who does that 24/7? DO you?

If you say you do. I take you to 1 John 8,

The "problem is" that you do not believe that God is able to keep you from falling; that God does not really care if you sin! The "Problem" is when people deny the Bible and elevate their failures and personal experience to a level above what God says. Their theology forces them to twist the Scriptures to not really have any meaning at all. We come to God on His terms! We do not dictate to God; yet people do!

To make God accept us on OUR Terms, is a recipe for failure and missing the real thing! Even the unregenerate flatters themselves that they will be in Heaven; they just lower the bar in their "Theology" just far enough so that they get in!

 

[Episkopos]

no. Grace is unmerited or unearned favor.

Grace is unmerited power...in the NT. You are relying on the human understanding...but not God's word.

2 Corinthians 12:9
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

OK...God is speaking...not some theology student. And this is about grace.

Grace is power. The power of Christ. The power of His resurrection. His power in our weak vessels. We have this treasure (grace) in earthen vessels (these mortal bodies).

Philippians 3:10-14
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

His great power usward who believe.

Ephesians 1:19
“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,”

That is what grace is.

But the modern anemic interpretation that denies the power of God goes like this...."for my favour is made perfect in continual sinning?"

So then you are trying to show how forgiving God is by remaining a sinner. Hey...God doesn't need believers like that. He has the whole unbelieving world to show that kind of grace to. But who actually knows the Lord?

 

[Candidus]

So John saying if WE say we have no sin (yes he included himself) WE DECEIVE OURSELVES (Again he included himself)

yet it has no bearing on christians.

There you go people. Candidus must not think John was a christian. I mean,He must not be, .If this is not to christians Yet he includes himself.

Tell me, how many Christians do you know that they never had any sin that they would need the atonement of Christ for? You are correct; if John did not ever believe that he had sins that he needed to be cleansed of (verses 7 and 9), then by his own admission he is no Christian!

If 1 Jn. 1:8 means that Christians still sin, then why does EVERYTHING he writes in this Epistle deny that assumption? John's Epistle is to far too self-contradictory to have possibly been inspired by God if John is claiming what you say.

 

[Joseph77]

Yes, yet in contrast to those who think they are somehow "sinless",

How about these guys ? >> i.e. what Scripture actually does say, contrary to teachings of copelanite's.....

"Letter to Ekklesia at Corinth (NIV)


Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,


To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people,

together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:


Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus.

For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge—

God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you.

Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed.

He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Tell me, how many Christians do you know that they never had any sin that they would need the atonement of Christ for?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The "problem is" that you do not believe that God is able to keep you from falling; that God does not really care if you sin! The "Problem" is when people deny the Bible and elevate their failures and personal experience to a level above what God says. Their theology forces them to twist the Scriptures to not really have any meaning at all. We come to God on His terms! We do not dictate to God; yet people do!

To make God accept us on OUR Terms, is a recipe for failure and missing the real thing! Even the unregenerate flatters themselves that they will be in Heaven; they just lower the bar in their "Theology" just far enough so that they get in!

Nothing you stated here is fact

When your ready to actually discuss facts about what I believe. Come talk to me

I am literally sick of your false accusations and refusal to understand

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Grace is unmerited power...in the NT. You are relying on the human understanding...but not God's word.

2 Corinthians 12:9
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

OK...God is speaking...not some theology student. And this is about grace.

Grace is power. The power of Christ. The power of His resurrection. His power in our weak vessels. We have this treasure (grace) in earthen vessels (these mortal bodies).

Philippians 3:10-14
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

His great power usward who believe.

Ephesians 1:19
“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,”

That is what grace is.

But the modern anemic interpretation that denies the power of God goes like this...."for my favour is made perfect in continual sinning?"

So then you are trying to show how forgiving God is by remaining a sinner. Hey...God doesn't need believers like that. He has the whole unbelieving world to show that kind of grace to. But who actually knows the Lord?

Spoken like a true catholic.

Whats sad is, I do not think you are catholic are you?

 

[Joseph77]

The "problem is" that you do not believe that God is able to keep you from falling; that God does not really care if you sin! The "Problem" is when people deny the Bible and elevate their failures and personal experience to a level above what God says. Their theology forces them to twist the Scriptures to not really have any meaning at all. We come to God on His terms! We do not dictate to God; yet people do!

To make God accept us on OUR Terms, is a recipe for failure and missing the real thing! Even the unregenerate flatters themselves that they will be in Heaven; they just lower the bar in their "Theology" just far enough so that they get in!

True, but they want you and other to try and accept, to try and 'understand' their false ways, so that they may what? Be acceptable ? Yet it cannot be, with any false teaching or false practice, anything not of faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Tell me, how many Christians do you know that they never had any sin that they would need the atonement of Christ for? You are correct; if John did not ever believe that he had sins that he needed to be cleansed of (verses 7 and 9), then by his own admission he is no Christian!

If 1 Jn. 1:8 means that Christians still sin, then why does EVERYTHING he writes in this Epistle deny that assumption? John's Epistle is to far too self-contradictory to have possibly been inspired by God if John is claiming what you say.

John speaks in present tense, Not past

Next

 

[Candidus]

John speaks in present tense, Not past

Next

Rhetoric is usually in the present tense. According to your view, the present tense would prove one of two things:

1). John and all his listeners have never been cleansed of their sins, and are therefore, not Christians.

2). John's was present tense speaking to the Gnostics in that church that believed that they had no sin that needed Atonement.

The first makes John contradict EVERYTHING else he says in this Epistle. The second I the only contextual meaning that makes EVERYTHING John says in this Epistle to be true.