Doubting Thomas

[FHII]

which makes him faithful to the end. However, as I explained in my last post - Jesus rebuked Thomas for not having the faith to believe as those who DO believe without seeing. He represents ALL of us in our moments of doubt

It rebuked him, for sure. But only by evidence. Remember, Thomas never put his hands on his flesh.

Did Jesus rebuke Peter in John 21:15-18? Did Jesus rebuke his mother in Matthew 12:48-50? I mention these two scriptures because you and I have debated them before. It's very odd you are so harsh on Thomas, but don't see these as rebukes.

Jesus was a hard, yet loving man. He didn't come down hard on Thomas, but he did on Mary and Peter. In a loving way...if you want to argue against that, fine. We don't know without hearing the tone of Jesus's voice. But Thomas isn't noted as breaking down to tears. No offense to Peter.

As for Mary - your last statement is an attempt at forcing Catholics to prove a negative. Just because Scripture is silent about Mary not having doubted the Resurrection is NOT a case for the idea that she DID doubt.
Scripture is silent on Jesus having stood on His head at the Last Supper - but that doesn't lend credence to the idea that He DID stand on His head.

You will note I never uttered the word "Catholic". I did not refer to anything Catholic. You are forcing it to be a Catholic issue. I don't speak of the Catholic faith or Church unless it's an issue of historical relevance. So quit trying to paint what I said as anti-catholic!

Do you have a verse that says Mary believed Jesus would rise? No, you don't! I backed off and said I didn't have a verse she doubted. I offered reasons why I believe she may not have. Now you provide a verse that said she believed he would. Not some crap about Jesus standing on his head.

Fact: NO ONE went to his tomb to see him as risen.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Thomas, however, raised the ante when he made his statement that he wouldn't believe until he actually placed his fingers in the nail holes and hand in His side. NONE of the others were this obstinate - and that's why they weren't rebuked by Jesus when He appeared to them.

Thomas made his statement that he wouldn't believe until he actually placed his fingers in the nail holes and hand in His side not because he was <<obstinate>> but because he KNEW THE SCRIPTURES-- the prophesies in them which the Holy Spirit of God breathed. "Holy men of God moved by the Holy Spirit in old time spake." "Thus saith the LORD GOD, o Spirit, breathe upon THE SLAIN THAT HE MAY LIVE."

Thomas searched the Scriptures; the others did not, and Jesus rebuked NO ONE (though I said so before), not Thomas especially, saying, "be not faithless but be believing" NOW WITH THE EVIDENCE FOR WHAT YOU FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES visibly and tangibly standing in front of you.

Other difference between Thomas and the other disciples than his knowledge of the Scriptures a priori did not exist.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Fact: NO ONE went to his tomb to see him as risen.

AMEN, In fact, He, "came" to his tomb to "appear unto Mary the Risen"!

 

[BreadOfLife]

It rebuked him, for sure. But only by evidence. Remember, Thomas never put his hands on his flesh.

Did Jesus rebuke Peter in John 21:15-18? Did Jesus rebuke his mother in Matthew 12:48-50? I mention these two scriptures because you and I have debated them before. It's very odd you are so harsh on Thomas, but don't see these as rebukes.

Jesus was a hard, yet loving man. He didn't come down hard on Thomas, but he did on Mary and Peter. In a loving way...if you want to argue against that, fine. We don't know without hearing the tone of Jesus's voice. But Thomas isn't noted as breaking down to tears. No offense to Peter.

First of all - why are you comparing Peter and Mary with Thomas??
Apples and oranges.

Peter simply denied that he knew him. He didn't state that he refused to believe unless he stuck his fingers in his nail holes.
Peter was a coward - not an obstinate doubter.

As for Mary - Jesus NEVER rebukes her in Matt. 12:48-50. He isn't even talking to her.
If anything - He is praising His mother for her willingness to do the will of God by telling the people that if they did the same - they would also be considered His family.

You will note I never uttered the word "Catholic". I did not refer to anything Catholic. You are forcing it to be a Catholic issue. I don't speak of the Catholic faith or Church unless it's an issue of historical relevance. So quit trying to paint what I said as anti-catholic!

Do you have a verse that says Mary believed Jesus would rise? No, you don't! I backed off and said I didn't have a verse she doubted. I offered reasons why I believe she may not have. Now you provide a verse that said she believed he would. Not some crap about Jesus standing on his head.

Fact: NO ONE went to his tomb to see him as risen.

Once again - it's not up to me to provide a verse that says Mary didn't doubt. If there is NO proof that she did - then your only motive is to denigrate her for whatever reason. To posit that she probably DID doubt because Scripture is silent on the matter makes as much sense as trying to prove that Jesus was gay because Scripture is silent on the matter.

And - I only brought up the fact that I was Catholic because who else defends Mary in the face of negative assaults?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thomas made his statement that he wouldn't believe until he actually placed his fingers in the nail holes and hand in His side not because he was <<obstinate>> but because he KNEW THE SCRIPTURES-- the prophesies in them which the Holy Spirit of God breathed. "Holy men of God moved by the Holy Spirit in old time spake." "Thus saith the LORD GOD, o Spirit, breathe upon THE SLAIN THAT HE MAY LIVE."
Thomas searched the Scriptures; the others did not, and Jesus rebuked NO ONE (though I said so before), not Thomas especially, saying, "be not faithless but be believing" NOW WITH THE EVIDENCE FOR WHAT YOU FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES visibly and tangibly standing in front of you.

Other difference between Thomas and the other disciples than his knowledge of the Scriptures a priori did not exist.

Where are you getting this rubbish??

Show me where the Bible says that Thomas searched the Scriptures while the others did NOT.
Chapter and Verse. Where does the Bible say that he was a Scripture scholar and the others were ignorant?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thomas was a 'hero' from day one he was a disciple. He was the only disciple ever who said "I do not know"; he was the only one ever who cried out to Jesus, "HOW can I know?"; he was the disciple who despite the others' scepticism CONFESSED Jesus as his, Lord and God; and he was the only disciple who the first time he encountered the RISEN JESUS WORSHIPPED HIM WHOLEHEARTEDLY. But everyone says Thomas doubted?! Because the pope celebrates Thomas doubts! my o my...

Your constant denial that Jesus didn't rebuke Thomas for his unbelief simply shows that you don't understand the word of God.
His rebuke of Thomas couldn't be any clearer . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The fact that she accompanied the women expecting to prepare Christ properly for His burial meant that she too never expected the resurrection.

Utter nonsense.

Where does the Bible tell us that Mary, mother of Jesus was one of the 3 women who buried Jesus?? Even if she was there - they didn't prepare His body for long-term burial. That's what the women went to do on Easter morning.
There was no "lack of faith" here.

This entire thread is an abomination because it adds to Scripture what is NOT there about Thomas - and now is adding things about Mary that aren't there either.
This is a textbook example of Protestantism at work . . .

 

[FHII]

First of all - why are you comparing Peter and Mary with Thomas??

Stupid question. A denial that they did wrong.

Peter simply denied that he knew

Oh sure... No big deal....

Matthew 10:33 KJV
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Peter did "simply" that.

As for Mary - Jesus NEVER rebukes her in Matt. 12:48-50. He isn't even talking to her.

He was talking about her... She showed up late for Church and expected Jesus to pause his sermon to talk to her.

If anything - He is praising His mother for her willingness to do the will of God by telling the people that if they did the same - they would also be considered His family.

That's just garbage spin.... Jesus was not going to interrupted just because mamma asked.

Once again - it's not up to me to provide a verse that says Mary didn't doubt.

Then where was she looking for him?

then your only motive is to denigrate her for whatever reaso

Bull! Look, I admitted thAt she wasn't even in the picture. Yet I am correct in stating NO ONE stepped forward! If someone would've, would it it not be worthy of mention? Maybe she did believe. But she didn't step forward.

Are you going to say she did believe while no one else did?

No one stepped forward!

To posit that she probably DID doubt because Scripture is silent on the matter makes as much sense as trying to prove that Jesus was gay because Scripture is silent on the matter.

That is about the second or third stupidest thing you have ever said.

And - I only brought up the fact that I was Catholic because who else defends Mary in the face of negative assaults?

Now it's the 3rd or 4th stupidest thing you said. It's not a negative assault unless you think Mary had godlike qualities. She was human! Or do you believe she was more?

By the way... You said, "I was Catholic...".

Did you forsake your faith? Are you no longer Catholic?

Don't bother answering that... Or anything. Come back and talk to me when you want to talk about Jesus and Christianity. I am not interested in arguing about Catholicism.

 

[Enoch111]

Where does the Bible tell us that Mary, mother of Jesus was one of the 3 women who buried Jesus??

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. (Lk 23)...
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. (Lk 24)

Mary the mother of Jesus was among the women who were at the cross (when Jesus charged John to look after her). She was also among the women who saw where the sepulchre was and then accompanied the other women. Matthew and John mention Mary Magdalene, Mark mentions only three women, but Luke includes all the women who came from Galilee. As well as others not even mentioned in the other Gospels.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Once again - NONE of them believed until they saw Jesus risen.

They believed like they believed Lazarus was raised from the dead, just another man. Only Thomas was not there before, so you cannot say he also did not believe. Why was he not there? Obviously because he said as much as that he won't believe until he could confirm THOSE TWO PROPHETIC MARKS OF THE TRUE SON OF GOD THE LAMB OF GOD, so eight days after Jesus' first appearance and Thomas had found Scripture proof of those two sign-marks in Jesus' raised from the dead body, Thomas was indeed with the other disciples, and IMMEDIATELY, INSTANTLY, CONFESSED TRUE FAITH IN JESUS AS THE CHRIST, LORD AND GOD OF THE SCRIPTURES. Like NONE of the others had done.
To see Jesus by faith is the regeneration through which never a still born has or will be given birth. Thomas instantly confessed.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. (Lk 23)...
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. (Lk 24)

Mary the mother of Jesus was among the women who were at the cross (when Jesus charged John to look after her). She was also among the women who saw where the sepulchre was and then accompanied the other women. Matthew and John mention Mary Magdalene, Mark mentions only three women, but Luke includes all the women who came from Galilee. As well as others not even mentioned in the other Gospels.

Luke 23 "55 And the women which came with him from Galilee", refers to the two Marys mentioned by Mark and Matthew ON THAT OCCASION OF THE LAYING OF THE BODY IN THE GRAVE. "There were many women" AT THE CRUCIFIXION THE DAY BEFORE.

So the two Marys ONLY, "55 followed after, beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid .. 54 THAT DAY the Preparation mid-afternoon the Sabbath nearing." 56 And they (the two Marys) returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."

Luke 24 "1 Now upon the first day of the week, after-midnight early in the morning [orthrou batheohs], they .. the two (variant) .. came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre" like Mary Magdalene according to John 20:1,2 must have had told them after she had seen "...the stone cast away from the tomb" "while it was still early darkness - dusk" [proh-i skotias eti ousehs] after the Sabbath Day before "dusk" of Saturday evening.

Mary the mother of Jesus was among the women who were at the cross (when Jesus charged John to look after her). She never <<was also among the women who saw where the sepulchre was and then accompanied the other women>>. That is Enoch11's, fake, story.
Mark and Matthew mention only the two Marys at the grave.
John mentions Mary Magdalene not at all. That is another of Enoch11's, faked, stories.
Mark mentions three women, not at the funeral, but more than a day after it, "after the Sabbath", at the grocers, buying spices.
Luke includes "other" women (probably those mentioned in verse 11) than those who came from Galilee with, i.e., "the two" whom Mark and Matthew name at the funeral, the Marys.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

It rebuked him, for sure. But only by evidence.

<<It...>> What was <It...>? The fact Jesus said to Thomas and all those within hearing-distance, "Be not without faith, but believe"? These words of Jesus are an encouragement, saying, 'You had it right, Thomas, the Scriptures informed you well-- therefore don't be without faith, but believe, Thomas, you can trust everything the Scriptures showed you so clearly!'
Just so are Jesus' words in verse 20, no stern 'admonition', but an assurance and solace and again an encouragement, not only to Thomas, but to everyone within hearing distance like you and me, "Because thou hast seen Me (by the hearing of the testimony of the Spirit of Christ in your hearts "OF ME HE SHALL TESTIFY") thou hast believed, therefore, blessed are they that have (like Thomas) not seen (physically) YET (like Thomas did) HAVE BELIEVED (spiritually)."

The Roman Catholics have it all screwed up!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Where are you getting this rubbish??

Show me where the Bible says that Thomas searched the Scriptures while the others did NOT.
Chapter and Verse. Where does the Bible say that he was a Scripture scholar and the others were ignorant?

Lekkerrrrrrr, HERE, in John 20:29!

Roman Catholic, who said anything like that Thomas <<was a Scripture scholar>> but YOU!

And chapter and verse that <<the others did NOT .. search the Scriptures>> are John 20 all verses up to and including verse 30. Blinder than the Roman Catholic who hates being proved false you won't get.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Roman Catholic, APPLY THIS,

Once again - it's not up to me to provide a verse that says Mary didn't doubt. If there is NO proof that she did - then your only motive is to denigrate her for whatever reason.

...to what you have just scorned at me for concerning Thomas!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Where does the Bible tell us that Mary, mother of Jesus was one of the 3 women who buried Jesus??

For your correct information, Roman Catholic, the Bible nowhere <<tells us that Mary, mother of Jesus was one of the 3 women who buried Jesus>>. You, Roman Catholic, are ADDING Mary the mother of Jesus to the two Marys, "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary" (Matthew)—"Mary Magdalene and Mary of Joses" (Mark).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Stupid question. A denial that they did wrong.

Oh sure... No big deal....

Matthew 10:33 KJV
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Peter did "simply" that.

He was talking about her... She showed up late for Church and expected Jesus to pause his sermon to talk to her.

That's just garbage spin.... Jesus was not going to interrupted just because mamma asked.
Then where was she looking for him?

Bull! Look, I admitted thAt she wasn't even in the picture. Yet I am correct in stating NO ONE stepped forward! If someone would've, would it it not be worthy of mention? Maybe she did believe. But she didn't step forward.

Are you going to say she did believe while no one else did?

No one stepped forward!

That is about the second or third stupidest thing you have ever said.

Now it's the 3rd or 4th stupidest thing you said. It's not a negative assault unless you think Mary had godlike qualities. She was human! Or do you believe she was more?

By the way... You said, "I was Catholic...".

Did you forsake your faith? Are you no longer Catholic?

Don't bother answering that... Or anything. Come back and talk to me when you want to talk about Jesus and Christianity. I am not interested in arguing about Catholicism.

Once again - you missed every single point.

First of all - comparing Peter and Thomas is apples and oranges because Peter didn't refuse to believe. Thomas DID.
Tey BOTH screwed up and they BOTH made amends - but for different things.

As for Mary, mother of Jesus - your charge that Jesus "rebuked" her in Matt. 12:48-50 is a LIE. He never ONCE addressed her NOR did He even refer to her - except to say that if somebody wanted to be His family - they should do like SHE did by doing God's will.

Finally - YOUR feeble attempts at trying to "prove" that Mary doubted her Son because Scripture is silent on the matter is not only an exercise in futility - it simply shows your desperation . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. (Lk 23)...
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. (Lk 24)

Mary the mother of Jesus was among the women who were at the cross (when Jesus charged John to look after her). She was also among the women who saw where the sepulchre was and then accompanied the other women. Matthew and John mention Mary Magdalene, Mark mentions only three women, but Luke includes all the women who came from Galilee. As well as others not even mentioned in the other Gospels.

NOWHERE does the Bible tell us that the mother of Jesus was at His burial.
My point was that even IF she was there - this doesn't indicated a "lack of faith" as @FHII falsely charged.

 

[BreadOfLife]

They believed like they believed Lazarus was raised from the dead, just another man. Only Thomas was not there before, so you cannot say he also did not believe. Why was he not there? Obviously because he said as much as that he won't believe until he could confirm THOSE TWO PROPHETIC MARKS OF THE TRUE SON OF GOD THE LAMB OF GOD, so eight days after Jesus' first appearance and Thomas had found Scripture proof of those two sign-marks in Jesus' raised from the dead body, Thomas was indeed with the other disciples, and IMMEDIATELY, INSTANTLY, CONFESSED TRUE FAITH IN JESUS AS THE CHRIST, LORD AND GOD OF THE SCRIPTURES. Like NONE of the others had done.
To see Jesus by faith is the regeneration through which never a still born has or will be given birth. Thomas instantly confessed.

Lekkerrrrrrr, HERE, in John 20:29!

Roman Catholic, who said anything like that Thomas <<was a Scripture scholar>> but YOU!

And chapter and verse that <<the others did NOT .. search the Scriptures>> are John 20 all verses up to and including verse 30. Blinder than the Roman Catholic who hates being proved false you won't get.

Roman Catholic, APPLY THIS,

...to what you have just scorned at me for concerning Thomas!

For your correct information, Roman Catholic, the Bible nowhere <<tells us that Mary, mother of Jesus was one of the 3 women who buried Jesus>>. You, Roman Catholic, are ADDING Mary the mother of Jesus to the two Marys, "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary" (Matthew)—"Mary Magdalene and Mary of Joses" (Mark).

I lumped all of your ridiculous responses together because they're just angry repetitions.

First of all - you NEVER proved that Thomas was a Scripture scholar as you indicated in your previous post. YOU stated that Thomas studied the Scriptures while the others did NOT.
Where is the Scriptural proof for this, Einstein??

Secondly - I never stated that the Mother of Jesus was at His burial. That was @FHII who made this claim - NOT me.
Get your facts straight.

Thirdly - Thomas only acknowledged Jesus because He caught him with his proverbial pants down and rubbed his unbelieving nose in His wounds.
At that point - Thomas was overwhelmed and fell to his knees.

Finally - I don't not sure why you keep referring to me as "Roman Catholic". as if it's supposed to be some sort of "insult".
I wear that label faithfully and proudly - so thank you for recognizing that.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

First of all - you NEVER proved that Thomas was a Scripture scholar as you indicated in your previous post. YOU stated that Thomas studied the Scriptures while the others did NOT.
Where is the Scriptural proof for this, Einstein??

It takes someone a little more like Einstein to understand or just see the proof of Thomas' interest, much deeper, wider, higher than relativity; but it all boils down to relativity.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Thirdly - Thomas only acknowledged Jesus because He caught him with his proverbial pants down and rubbed his unbelieving nose in His wounds.
At that point - Thomas was overwhelmed and fell to his knees.

Shameless Roman Catholic. Typical!