Grailhunter’s Corner
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there are not three gods in one god head
there is God who is God to anything not God, there is God's Word that is God to anything not God and there is God's Presence also known as Holy Spirit, that is God to anything not God.
there is you that is you to anything not you, there is your word (that such would give) that is you to anything not you, and there is your presence that is you to anything not you. you are what you are and you spoke in your presence
man you don't even understand the basics of a living entity, do you?
there is God who is God to anything not God, there is God's Word that is God to anything not God and there is God's Presence also known as Holy Spirit, that is God to anything not God.
there is you that is you to anything not you, there is your word (that such would give) that is you to anything not you, and there is your presence that is you to anything not you. you are what you are and you spoke in your presence
man you don't even understand the basics of a living entity, do you?
@Grailhunter certainly likes his book writing! :)
That's what the Mormons also believe. Which makes you and them into Polytheists.
BTW, there was no need for a lengthy post. Had you just said "I am a Polytheist" we would have applauded your honesty (if nothing else).
FROM THEOPEDIA
Polytheism is belief in, or worship of, multiple gods or divinities. The word comes from the Greek words poly+theoi, literally "many gods." Most ancient religions were polytheistic, holding to pantheons of traditional deities, often accumulated over centuries of cultural interchange and experience.
Present-day polytheistic religions include Hinduism, Shinto, some forms of Wicca, Vodun, and Asatru. Buddhism is regarded by some non-practitioners as polytheistic although this view of the religion is rejected by most adherents. Some Jewish and Islamic scholars regard the Christian doctrine of the Trinity as bordering on polytheism, a view that Christians strongly reject.
However, there are some serious philosophical problems when thinking about the definition of God in relation to polytheistic beliefs. By the broadest definition in most dictionaries, God refers to the supreme being that is above everything else. By very definition, this requires that it be only One being.
The reasoning is that if this being was just another one of many gods, He would not necessarily be the highestor supreme. A polytheist might reply that there is one highest God with multiple lesser gods (i.e. Henotheism). However, this is still in contrast to the definition because those lesser beings cannot be referred to as "God", simply because they are not the supreme being. The definition of a supreme God demands that He is One.
Does truth become false because the Mormons believe it. I have given a detailed explanation of the truth. Take it or leave it, I am not offended either way.
We know truth does not change. And mormons do not believe the truth.
So if they believe it, and if you believe it, we know that about you also.
Too many "if"s though.... can you make it more simple ?
Is this the one man church talking? 1900 years later you stand up and say you have it right. The most junior on the block knows it all. I have teenagers that try to do that to me all the time. You have a book that tells you of the first 65 years of Christianity...God did not die after the close of the Bible, or go in hibernation waiting for you to be born. I think we have been over this before. Catholicism is a valid religion and Mormonism is a valid religion. You represent one opinion and if your "likes" tell anything, you do not have too many people agreeing with your opinion.
And of course I should add that Protestantism is a valid religion...lol...
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*****************FOR ATHEISTS AND SCIENCE HATERS*************
I have some humorous stories about scientists and Christianity but I am only going to bore you with a couple of them. Christians, when the going gets rough they cannot resist believing in science. Likewise when the going gets rough the atheists cannot help believing in religion. A had a friend that was a Quantum physicist and she was having complication with her pregnancy when we were alone in a elevator one time, she asked me in whisper to pray for her and her baby. Likewise it is like the preacher that rushes to the hospital to be saved. Least to say there are some misconceptions about the people of science and some Christians have a love / hate relationship with science.
Many Christians think that scientists are atheists, but not all of them are. Then again the methodology and scholarship has to be. If not, there would be no reason for science. All questions would be answered….God did it. Job done! There would be no science, no discoveries, and no inventions. We would still be riding horses and your home would be lit with candles and the world would be starving and dying from plagues and not know what was killing them.
Thomas Edison invented his version of the light bulb in 1879 and went on to develop electrical grids for cities. Ninety years later we landed on the moon. Science works. If we keep telling our kids that science is all bunk (that is if they are listening while they are on their smart phones) they are just going to think we are old fogies and don’t know anything and the religion we believe in, is also all bunk. If we keep doing this we are nailing the coffin for Christianity because our youth is the future of Christianity. Make it unbelievable and you are doing no service to Christ.
And the funny and Ironic thing is that the fogies do a juggling act in their beliefs of science, accepting some of it and not accepting other parts of it. They will drive to church in their Ford pick-up that has 32 plus processors in it and the OnStar option that can communicate through cell towers and satellites. But they will go to church and preach that science is bunk. But…but, if they have a heart attack they will reach for that science driven smart phone and call the science mobile... ambulance ….and be taken to a building of science hoping they can save their life….now if the doctor at the other end is a Sunday school student of his and he picks up a Bible instead of treating him….he is going to die! So that is not what he is wanting. He wants someone that believes in science and is expecting it to work. By the way if you took a modern doctor or pharmacist back to the 1400’s they would have burnt them as witches.
Now atheists are just as hard headed, they do not see any proof in the Bible. Nearly all religions have sacred texts….right? So none of this is convincing to them. But I will tell you a secret….most of them want proof because they want to believe.
Due to my career I have spent time in some very interesting places and I can tell you that it does not matter if it is Caltech, JPL, Los Alamos, or Oakridge National Laboratories …the topic of Christianity comes up. And I can tell you that not too far in the future that science will prove that God exists…at least in the broadest sense.
Genetics: When DNA and RNA was discovered, they were thinking, Oh boy, we have the explanation for everything! But as they went along they realized how complex DNA and RNA is. In loose terms DNA is like a biological computer program. The building blocks of life, but not like the blocks we played with. There is no way I can convey the complexity of it, you would have to spend years studying it to understand. But what they realized was that it was to complex to happen by accident. Not that they are admitting it, for now. They do not even have a theory for this. It has to be nearly perfect or it does not live or cannot reproduce and it has to be consistent or you end up with ten legged cats. That is a scary thought! DNA strands; it is not just the strands but also the connections and binding force and its relation to the organism. They like throwing large amounts of time at things to explain it, but even if you gave it a thousand trillion millenniums, it still would not produce a worm by accident.
There was nothing about that they liked…and then it got worse…there are layers within DNA and its association with RNA that are even more complex. The communication between RNA and DNA is an evolving science. Intelligent design is something that will be made public eventually. Not that it has not been theorized before.
Astrophysics and Quantum Mechanics: This has several elements, but one of them is that for sometime now they have wondered why the universe does not look like a junkyard of suns and planets. Now as it is, objects do collide but not as frequently as you would expect. Besides the material, time, speed, light, force, and distance makes up the observable universe. As they observed the physical objects and analyzed the energies involved, they were noting a harmony. Time becomes a continuum…that has a binding affect…fabric of space. Energies transform to solids. Light become effectible by force. Speed transforms solid to energy and back. All this is going on and if there was not a force or power of harmony in the universe things would go very bad….Not all things orbit, objects are going in all directions, intense gravity attracts so all this would end up being a sequence of collisions, explosions, or implosions. Or in the case of Black Holes, mass absorptions.
There is a force…a rule…they are trying to figure it out mathematically. And the same thing with Quantum Physics and the atom and subatomic particles....the deeper they look the more complex it becomes….ever heard of intelligent subatomic particles? The complexity of all this expands as more is known and the idea that it all fell in place by accident or sustains itself by coincidence becomes ludicrous. They are like a big bass fighting the hook in its mouth. The outcome is inevitable but they do not like it.
So ultimately science will at least prove intelligent design and I do not think it is going to take too long. Over the last few years I get calls from my buddies at Caltech that begin with, “I hope your happy now. We have reached another dead end!” As it is the theories of Astrophysics have come to dead ends. Not that they cannot come up with other theories…but they keep coming up with the fact that something has to be controlling this. So for the atheists, this will be the first step, that is, science is eventually going to have to admit it. Its funny, if you pull up the documentaries on this, the most noted Astrophysicists will slip and refer to nature as an intellect. For the Christians they will be able to look on science in a different light.
I have some humorous stories about scientists and Christianity but I am only going to bore you with a couple of them. Christians, when the going gets rough they cannot resist believing in science. Likewise when the going gets rough the atheists cannot help believing in religion. A had a friend that was a Quantum physicist and she was having complication with her pregnancy when we were alone in a elevator one time, she asked me in whisper to pray for her and her baby. Likewise it is like the preacher that rushes to the hospital to be saved. Least to say there are some misconceptions about the people of science and some Christians have a love / hate relationship with science.
Many Christians think that scientists are atheists, but not all of them are. Then again the methodology and scholarship has to be. If not, there would be no reason for science. All questions would be answered….God did it. Job done! There would be no science, no discoveries, and no inventions. We would still be riding horses and your home would be lit with candles and the world would be starving and dying from plagues and not know what was killing them.
Thomas Edison invented his version of the light bulb in 1879 and went on to develop electrical grids for cities. Ninety years later we landed on the moon. Science works. If we keep telling our kids that science is all bunk (that is if they are listening while they are on their smart phones) they are just going to think we are old fogies and don’t know anything and the religion we believe in, is also all bunk. If we keep doing this we are nailing the coffin for Christianity because our youth is the future of Christianity. Make it unbelievable and you are doing no service to Christ.
And the funny and Ironic thing is that the fogies do a juggling act in their beliefs of science, accepting some of it and not accepting other parts of it. They will drive to church in their Ford pick-up that has 32 plus processors in it and the OnStar option that can communicate through cell towers and satellites. But they will go to church and preach that science is bunk. But…but, if they have a heart attack they will reach for that science driven smart phone and call the science mobile... ambulance ….and be taken to a building of science hoping they can save their life….now if the doctor at the other end is a Sunday school student of his and he picks up a Bible instead of treating him….he is going to die! So that is not what he is wanting. He wants someone that believes in science and is expecting it to work. By the way if you took a modern doctor or pharmacist back to the 1400’s they would have burnt them as witches.
Now atheists are just as hard headed, they do not see any proof in the Bible. Nearly all religions have sacred texts….right? So none of this is convincing to them. But I will tell you a secret….most of them want proof because they want to believe.
Due to my career I have spent time in some very interesting places and I can tell you that it does not matter if it is Caltech, JPL, Los Alamos, or Oakridge National Laboratories …the topic of Christianity comes up. And I can tell you that not too far in the future that science will prove that God exists…at least in the broadest sense.
Genetics: When DNA and RNA was discovered, they were thinking, Oh boy, we have the explanation for everything! But as they went along they realized how complex DNA and RNA is. In loose terms DNA is like a biological computer program. The building blocks of life, but not like the blocks we played with. There is no way I can convey the complexity of it, you would have to spend years studying it to understand. But what they realized was that it was to complex to happen by accident. Not that they are admitting it, for now. They do not even have a theory for this. It has to be nearly perfect or it does not live or cannot reproduce and it has to be consistent or you end up with ten legged cats. That is a scary thought! DNA strands; it is not just the strands but also the connections and binding force and its relation to the organism. They like throwing large amounts of time at things to explain it, but even if you gave it a thousand trillion millenniums, it still would not produce a worm by accident.
There was nothing about that they liked…and then it got worse…there are layers within DNA and its association with RNA that are even more complex. The communication between RNA and DNA is an evolving science. Intelligent design is something that will be made public eventually. Not that it has not been theorized before.
Astrophysics and Quantum Mechanics: This has several elements, but one of them is that for sometime now they have wondered why the universe does not look like a junkyard of suns and planets. Now as it is, objects do collide but not as frequently as you would expect. Besides the material, time, speed, light, force, and distance makes up the observable universe. As they observed the physical objects and analyzed the energies involved, they were noting a harmony. Time becomes a continuum…that has a binding affect…fabric of space. Energies transform to solids. Light become effectible by force. Speed transforms solid to energy and back. All this is going on and if there was not a force or power of harmony in the universe things would go very bad….Not all things orbit, objects are going in all directions, intense gravity attracts so all this would end up being a sequence of collisions, explosions, or implosions. Or in the case of Black Holes, mass absorptions.
There is a force…a rule…they are trying to figure it out mathematically. And the same thing with Quantum Physics and the atom and subatomic particles....the deeper they look the more complex it becomes….ever heard of intelligent subatomic particles? The complexity of all this expands as more is known and the idea that it all fell in place by accident or sustains itself by coincidence becomes ludicrous. They are like a big bass fighting the hook in its mouth. The outcome is inevitable but they do not like it.
So ultimately science will at least prove intelligent design and I do not think it is going to take too long. Over the last few years I get calls from my buddies at Caltech that begin with, “I hope your happy now. We have reached another dead end!” As it is the theories of Astrophysics have come to dead ends. Not that they cannot come up with other theories…but they keep coming up with the fact that something has to be controlling this. So for the atheists, this will be the first step, that is, science is eventually going to have to admit it. Its funny, if you pull up the documentaries on this, the most noted Astrophysicists will slip and refer to nature as an intellect. For the Christians they will be able to look on science in a different light.
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Just a bit of trivia:-
Over a 100 years ago, a gas engineer said that the electrical light bulb would not work properly to provide enough light nor replace the Gas lights that lit the cities around the world.
Well within a few years the gas lights disappeared and were until recently a part of our camping gear kit.
Now with the advent of LED light sources, LED light bulbs have replaced the fluro light tubes as well as the incandescent light bulbs as well as the gas and kerosene camping lights.
The efficiency of generating light has improved so much that a 500 watt flood light has been replaced by a 25 watt LED flood light, a 95 % reduction in required energy for the same luminous output, for electrical light bulbs. The energy efficiency over a gas light is much higher again.
Now with solar panels, the need to be connected to an energy supplier is reducing our reliance on the provider, but because of the unreliability of consistent solar energy we will remain connected until a better system comes along.
Over a 100 years ago, a gas engineer said that the electrical light bulb would not work properly to provide enough light nor replace the Gas lights that lit the cities around the world.
Well within a few years the gas lights disappeared and were until recently a part of our camping gear kit.
Now with the advent of LED light sources, LED light bulbs have replaced the fluro light tubes as well as the incandescent light bulbs as well as the gas and kerosene camping lights.
The efficiency of generating light has improved so much that a 500 watt flood light has been replaced by a 25 watt LED flood light, a 95 % reduction in required energy for the same luminous output, for electrical light bulbs. The energy efficiency over a gas light is much higher again.
Now with solar panels, the need to be connected to an energy supplier is reducing our reliance on the provider, but because of the unreliability of consistent solar energy we will remain connected until a better system comes along.
Paul Christensen
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You have written a book. Looks interesting. Shows a lot of hard work and good research. I have written several Christian Ebooks, and had a very good mentor who gave me many good hints on how to make them very readable and easy to follow. I would like to pass what I have learned on to you. Would you like me to do that? I can do it by PM if you are happy. I think that your text could be fashioned into a very readable book and your research would be very much appreciated. It is important to put our insights down in writing, and in doing so, we have a permanent record of them. So let me know if you are happy to receive my suggestions.
I wrote a 1200 page book. Probably will set it up as an Ebook in volumes. So far people say my writing are very readable and understandable. Besides that I have written hundreds of articles, sermons, and essays. But always good to hear suggestions. Here it is a challenge to take a large volume of information and condense it....and it still comes out large.
As time goes on we learn more and more about Christian history. The Vatican is in the process of digitizing their secret library. Books and text that go back as far as the 1st century. They have collected everything...correspondences between early Christians and even Gnostic. If they release that it will be a treasure trove of information...if they release it.
Cooper
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Someone has in their signature "if you cannot explain something simply, you do not fully understand it" (paraphrased.)
A three legged stool is a trinity. Leg one is not leg two or three, leg two is not leg one or three, and leg three is not leg one or two, but it is one stool.
.
A three legged stool is a trinity. Leg one is not leg two or three, leg two is not leg one or three, and leg three is not leg one or two, but it is one stool.
.
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Paul Christensen
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There are two different meanings of the word "respect" here. I am not sure that you are making these two different meanings clear in your text. When God says that He is no respecter of persons, it means that he treats all people the same and does not have favourites. The other meaning of "respect" is to honour, love, treat people as valuable individuals in themselves. The confusion in meanings could be the difficulty in translating the Greek words. I suspect that there are two Greek words involved.
Paul Christensen
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I had a good, close read of your article and enjoyed it immensely. You certainly have gone very deeply into the things you have set forth here. You have certainly done a comprehensive survey of the different interpretations of Scripture, the origins of many beliefs and practices, and shown that many things don't have a definitive answer and will be debated until time immemorial I don't have anything to add to it, and I wouldn't want to, even if I had. This is your work and nothing should distract from it.
............................ARE WE JEWISH CHRISTIANS?*******************
The short answer is, No. But as Paul Harvey use to say, “Stay tuned for the rest of the story.” And another Paul is going to figure very prominently in that story.
First a little background….
The Jewish religion is very much defined by the 613 Mosaic Laws. The Jewish religion was set in a very brutal warlike era. David became King around 1010 BCE and Solomon died around 931 BCE. So the height of the Davidic Kingdom only lasted 79 years. If you want to add Saul to this you can add 27 years to that. Shortly after the death of King Solomon the Kingdom went into decline. Before this period is the era of the Judges and after the era of Kings. In 722 BCE the northern kingdom was destroyed by the Assyrians and the population deported as per Assyrian military policy (resulting in the so-called Lose of the Ten Tribes of Israel). Judah was destroyed by the Babylonians in 598-582 BCE and the most influential citizens of the region taken to Babylon.
To stand back and look at it, Israel became an army and spent most of their history fighting….winning and loosing and drawing God’s wrath a lot of the time. Because of this, it reflects in their religion. What they do, is driven by Laws….their religion is about fearing God and women are property and the desire to make their religion the dominate force in the world….
Polygamy and concubinage was regulated by Mosaic Law. Selling of one’s daughter into concubinage was regulated by Law. Killing all that breathed and don’t forget the babies was stated in the Mosaic Law. Upon the conquest of a battle the women were taken, and non-virgin women where killed and they kept the virgins for themselves, this was directed by Mosaic Law. If a woman did not scream while being raped, she was killed along with her rapper, again Mosaic Law. Life for a life was part of the Mosaic Law. The killing of beasts and ritual process for the blood, entrails, and organs that were smeared on themselves and the altar are prescribed by the Mosaic Law. As whole the Law is extremely legalistic and in some cases requires death sentences. This sets the overall spirit of “ancient Judaism.” It is nothing you want to bring into Christianity.
These are just a few of the 613 Mosaic Laws it does not matter if it is the first commandment or the 613th commandment, they are a body of Laws. If you are under the Law and observe them, you must observe them all. You cannot choose to just observe ten of them. If you go through the list you will see why it was near to impossible to follow them and the effort was less than rewarding.
Adherence to the Law did not lead to salvation or heaven. In the Old Testament, heaven was not offered as a destination.
Adherence to the Law prevented the wrath of God….and you were in good standings with Yahweh. All their hopes and prayers were dependant on the coming Messiah. As they read the Old Testament prophecies they believed they described a human warlord king that would take down their oppressors and put them in power and the Mosaic Laws would be followed forever and sacrifices would continue forever.
As it turned out, none of that happened. Instead of a human warlord, they got "The Lord." The Son of God that preached love and peace. That is not what they were expecting. They were wanting a warlord king that would take on Rome. The scriptures taught them that Yahweh was one God, one person, and no one like Him. It is truly a monolithic religion so another God was completely alien to them, even sacrilegious to them, so they rejected Him. Today the Jews stand at the Wailing Wall and pray for the human messiah warlord king to come. It is a dead end religion. The twelve Jewish Apostles did not reject Him, but they tried to combine Judaism and Christianity even though Christ warned against it. So when the Jewish Apostles wrote the Gospels they were still referencing to the Ten Commandments and promoting Jewish dietary restrictions, and they continued to worship at the Temple on Saturday. Along with this, in the Gospels, most of the time, Yeshua is speaking directly to the Jews. Answering questions, many time Jewish questions, about Judaism. He is addressing the Jews a lot, and for good reason, as He said in Matthew 15:24 "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But modern Christians have taken some of those conversations and answers as Christian beliefs and at times that is a mistake. This comes forward into Christianity causing some confusion. Most of the conversations in the Gospels were between Christ and the Jews and He was not generally talking to them about believing in Him, baptism, and salvation. Why? It would not have went over well or because it was not time. The word salvation is not mentioned much in the Gospels because full salvation was not possible until after the crucifixion.
James the brother of Christ becomes the leader of the Jewish Christians. At that time the Jewish Christians were considered a Jewish sect by both the Apostles and Orthodox Jews. The Jewish Apostles continued their ministry with great hopes of converting the Jews but their greatest success was only during the first ten years of their ministry during which time they setup a temporary commune community. This site does not last long mostly because it provides a convenient way of finding and attacking the Jewish Christians. Those attacks came from both the Romans and Orthodox Jews. Shortly after Christ’s Resurrection Stephen is stoned to death by Orthodox Jews. The event was witnessed by Saul who would eventually becomes known as the Apostle Paul. (Around 35 AD) Paul experiences a series of revelations from Christ and is converted to Christianity. Part of these revelations was that the Pagans were eligible for the New Covenant. The Bible referrers to them as Gentiles. As the Apostle Paul’s ministry moves on he finds himself under attack, at times he is stoned and beaten by the Jews and the Romans. And then as he sees the continual rejection of Christianity by the Jews he finally announces that his ministry would turn to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:45-49….43-45 AD)
This announcement causes a rift between his ministry and the Jewish Christian Apostles and the Jewish Christians, it is because of this, or maybe because of this, that some Jewish Christians did not consider Paul an Apostle. So then Paul was being persecuted on four fronts, the Jewish Christian Apostles, the Jewish Christians, the Orthodox Christians and the Romans. The rift between the Jewish Apostles and Paul’s ministry was kept in check due to Peter’s siding with Paul. James' leadership was on shaky ground. Christ did not select His own brother to be an Apostle and He said it would be Peter that He would build His Church. Regardless of the sect, most Christians saw Peter as the number one Apostle. So the Jewish Apostles were not going to openly oppose Paul with Peter standing beside him.
But Paul had other problems, bands of Judaizers were following him around and harass his group and generally disrupt his ministry. The Judaizers were mainly made up of Jewish Christians and probably included some Orthodox Jews. There demands were that the Gentile converters must first be circumcised and become Jewish through the ritual of a proselyte and observe all the Jewish dietary restrictions.
Peter was a Jewish Christian but he was kind of on the fence between the Jewish Christian Apostles and the Apostle Paul. This can be seen in the scriptures because he waivers back and forth but finally sides mostly with Paul. Some say that it was due to a mutual admiration for each other’s character, most agree that they became friends. As time goes on the Jewish form of Christianity begins to flounder. The Roman persecutions start off and even the Jews are persecuting the Christians.
Either way the various animosities between the Jewish Christians and Paul’s ministry is the reason for the first Christian counsel in Jerusalem. (around 50 AD) At this council Paul, Peter, and Barnabas squire off against some of the Jewish Apostles and apparently several others. The outcome is a set of minimal concessions for the Gentile converts. Now, opinions vary, but it appears that James gave these concessions, thinking that the Gentile ministry would not amount to much, and the true Church would remain with the ministry of the Jewish Apostles. On this he could not have been more wrong. As it is there is no evidence that the Jewish Christians ever attempted to convert Gentiles. So since most of the Jews were rejecting Christ, their efforts did not amount to much.
Of course the decision at the council of Jerusalem did not squelch all of the disagreements but it did cause the Orthodox Jews to have less of an interest in Christianity. The Jews were under the cruel rule of the Romans and welcoming Pagans into their religion was just too much for most of them. Paul and Peter continue on with their ministry and were incredibly successful. Paul’s writings dominate the New Testament texts. The Gospel of Mark was written by a disciple of Peter and the Gospel of Luke and Acts was written by a disciple of Paul and neither were Apostles…per say. Then Paul goes on to write most of the New Testament.
The short answer is, No. But as Paul Harvey use to say, “Stay tuned for the rest of the story.” And another Paul is going to figure very prominently in that story.
First a little background….
The Jewish religion is very much defined by the 613 Mosaic Laws. The Jewish religion was set in a very brutal warlike era. David became King around 1010 BCE and Solomon died around 931 BCE. So the height of the Davidic Kingdom only lasted 79 years. If you want to add Saul to this you can add 27 years to that. Shortly after the death of King Solomon the Kingdom went into decline. Before this period is the era of the Judges and after the era of Kings. In 722 BCE the northern kingdom was destroyed by the Assyrians and the population deported as per Assyrian military policy (resulting in the so-called Lose of the Ten Tribes of Israel). Judah was destroyed by the Babylonians in 598-582 BCE and the most influential citizens of the region taken to Babylon.
To stand back and look at it, Israel became an army and spent most of their history fighting….winning and loosing and drawing God’s wrath a lot of the time. Because of this, it reflects in their religion. What they do, is driven by Laws….their religion is about fearing God and women are property and the desire to make their religion the dominate force in the world….
Polygamy and concubinage was regulated by Mosaic Law. Selling of one’s daughter into concubinage was regulated by Law. Killing all that breathed and don’t forget the babies was stated in the Mosaic Law. Upon the conquest of a battle the women were taken, and non-virgin women where killed and they kept the virgins for themselves, this was directed by Mosaic Law. If a woman did not scream while being raped, she was killed along with her rapper, again Mosaic Law. Life for a life was part of the Mosaic Law. The killing of beasts and ritual process for the blood, entrails, and organs that were smeared on themselves and the altar are prescribed by the Mosaic Law. As whole the Law is extremely legalistic and in some cases requires death sentences. This sets the overall spirit of “ancient Judaism.” It is nothing you want to bring into Christianity.
These are just a few of the 613 Mosaic Laws it does not matter if it is the first commandment or the 613th commandment, they are a body of Laws. If you are under the Law and observe them, you must observe them all. You cannot choose to just observe ten of them. If you go through the list you will see why it was near to impossible to follow them and the effort was less than rewarding.
Adherence to the Law did not lead to salvation or heaven. In the Old Testament, heaven was not offered as a destination.
Adherence to the Law prevented the wrath of God….and you were in good standings with Yahweh. All their hopes and prayers were dependant on the coming Messiah. As they read the Old Testament prophecies they believed they described a human warlord king that would take down their oppressors and put them in power and the Mosaic Laws would be followed forever and sacrifices would continue forever.
As it turned out, none of that happened. Instead of a human warlord, they got "The Lord." The Son of God that preached love and peace. That is not what they were expecting. They were wanting a warlord king that would take on Rome. The scriptures taught them that Yahweh was one God, one person, and no one like Him. It is truly a monolithic religion so another God was completely alien to them, even sacrilegious to them, so they rejected Him. Today the Jews stand at the Wailing Wall and pray for the human messiah warlord king to come. It is a dead end religion. The twelve Jewish Apostles did not reject Him, but they tried to combine Judaism and Christianity even though Christ warned against it. So when the Jewish Apostles wrote the Gospels they were still referencing to the Ten Commandments and promoting Jewish dietary restrictions, and they continued to worship at the Temple on Saturday. Along with this, in the Gospels, most of the time, Yeshua is speaking directly to the Jews. Answering questions, many time Jewish questions, about Judaism. He is addressing the Jews a lot, and for good reason, as He said in Matthew 15:24 "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But modern Christians have taken some of those conversations and answers as Christian beliefs and at times that is a mistake. This comes forward into Christianity causing some confusion. Most of the conversations in the Gospels were between Christ and the Jews and He was not generally talking to them about believing in Him, baptism, and salvation. Why? It would not have went over well or because it was not time. The word salvation is not mentioned much in the Gospels because full salvation was not possible until after the crucifixion.
James the brother of Christ becomes the leader of the Jewish Christians. At that time the Jewish Christians were considered a Jewish sect by both the Apostles and Orthodox Jews. The Jewish Apostles continued their ministry with great hopes of converting the Jews but their greatest success was only during the first ten years of their ministry during which time they setup a temporary commune community. This site does not last long mostly because it provides a convenient way of finding and attacking the Jewish Christians. Those attacks came from both the Romans and Orthodox Jews. Shortly after Christ’s Resurrection Stephen is stoned to death by Orthodox Jews. The event was witnessed by Saul who would eventually becomes known as the Apostle Paul. (Around 35 AD) Paul experiences a series of revelations from Christ and is converted to Christianity. Part of these revelations was that the Pagans were eligible for the New Covenant. The Bible referrers to them as Gentiles. As the Apostle Paul’s ministry moves on he finds himself under attack, at times he is stoned and beaten by the Jews and the Romans. And then as he sees the continual rejection of Christianity by the Jews he finally announces that his ministry would turn to the Gentiles. (Acts 13:45-49….43-45 AD)
This announcement causes a rift between his ministry and the Jewish Christian Apostles and the Jewish Christians, it is because of this, or maybe because of this, that some Jewish Christians did not consider Paul an Apostle. So then Paul was being persecuted on four fronts, the Jewish Christian Apostles, the Jewish Christians, the Orthodox Christians and the Romans. The rift between the Jewish Apostles and Paul’s ministry was kept in check due to Peter’s siding with Paul. James' leadership was on shaky ground. Christ did not select His own brother to be an Apostle and He said it would be Peter that He would build His Church. Regardless of the sect, most Christians saw Peter as the number one Apostle. So the Jewish Apostles were not going to openly oppose Paul with Peter standing beside him.
But Paul had other problems, bands of Judaizers were following him around and harass his group and generally disrupt his ministry. The Judaizers were mainly made up of Jewish Christians and probably included some Orthodox Jews. There demands were that the Gentile converters must first be circumcised and become Jewish through the ritual of a proselyte and observe all the Jewish dietary restrictions.
Peter was a Jewish Christian but he was kind of on the fence between the Jewish Christian Apostles and the Apostle Paul. This can be seen in the scriptures because he waivers back and forth but finally sides mostly with Paul. Some say that it was due to a mutual admiration for each other’s character, most agree that they became friends. As time goes on the Jewish form of Christianity begins to flounder. The Roman persecutions start off and even the Jews are persecuting the Christians.
Either way the various animosities between the Jewish Christians and Paul’s ministry is the reason for the first Christian counsel in Jerusalem. (around 50 AD) At this council Paul, Peter, and Barnabas squire off against some of the Jewish Apostles and apparently several others. The outcome is a set of minimal concessions for the Gentile converts. Now, opinions vary, but it appears that James gave these concessions, thinking that the Gentile ministry would not amount to much, and the true Church would remain with the ministry of the Jewish Apostles. On this he could not have been more wrong. As it is there is no evidence that the Jewish Christians ever attempted to convert Gentiles. So since most of the Jews were rejecting Christ, their efforts did not amount to much.
Of course the decision at the council of Jerusalem did not squelch all of the disagreements but it did cause the Orthodox Jews to have less of an interest in Christianity. The Jews were under the cruel rule of the Romans and welcoming Pagans into their religion was just too much for most of them. Paul and Peter continue on with their ministry and were incredibly successful. Paul’s writings dominate the New Testament texts. The Gospel of Mark was written by a disciple of Peter and the Gospel of Luke and Acts was written by a disciple of Paul and neither were Apostles…per say. Then Paul goes on to write most of the New Testament.
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Then in 69-70 AD there was the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. After which the animosities between the Orthodox Jews, the Christian Jews, and the Gentile Christians increased exponentially. Some believe that much of it was about accusing each other for causing the destruction of Jerusalem and the Gentile Christians began blaming the Jews for the death of Christ and the initial Jewish persecution of Christians. This animosity along with the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 AD, drove the Ebionites (sect of Jewish Christians) and the majority of other Jewish Christians out of Jerusalem and they gradually lost influence and followers. Small sects of the Ebonites survive for a few centuries. But by the second century over 95% of the Christians were Gentiles and had taken the leadership of the Church. In deed it would be hard to find the writings of an early Church leader after the first century that was not a Gentile.
I have read the history and speculations vary. Bottomline, very little of the writings of the Jewish Christians survive outside of the Bible and by the turn of the first century their numbers dwindled. (Even very few of the non-canonical texts are written by Jewish Christians.) Then when Christianity merged with the Roman Empire that Gentile mold was set in stone. Catholics and Protestants alike can trace their bloodline back to the Gentiles.
The writings of the Apostle Paul can be said to be the Gospels for the Gentile Christians. (Modern Christians) Indeed he testifies that most of his Christian instruction did not come from “man” (the Apostles) but from Christ himself. (Galatians 1:11….) So he goes on to explain the details and elements of salvation and the divisions between Judaism and Christianity. Good Deeds are wonderful and a part of Christian application, but salvation is through faith alone. He explains that Christians are not Jewish, they do not follow the Jewish religion or Jewish Law. He explains that Christians are not under the Law about three dozen ways. So what follows is an explanation for this and the relevant scriptures….
Many believe that the phrase “New Testament” means New Text or New Book, when in fact the phrase “New Testament” means “New Covenant.” And there is a reason why the Old Testament is called the OLD Testament. Because it is the portion of the Bible that tells of the time when God’s people “ONCE” lived under the Laws of the OLD Covenants….the Old Agreements. As it is we are not living under two Covenants, two sets of Laws, or two religions. Christianity did not merge with Judaism.
Obviously Christ understood that as He explained that trying to do that would harm both religions. Mark 2:21-22 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”
Further more Paul made distinctions between those that are under the Law and those who are not under the Law, but rather faith. (Romans 3:19-21 & 4:14, 16, Galatians 4:21, 1st Cor. 9:20-21) The Old Covenants revealed the Holiness of God in the righteous standard of the Law. God promised his people that compliance to the Law would insure many Earthly rewards and his blessings. The New Covenant reveals the Holiness of God in His righteous Son. The New Testament contains those writing that reveals the Son of God and the New Covenant between God and Man. The New Covenant promises very few Earthly rewards but offers Forgiveness, Grace, Justification, Sanctification, Adoption, Glorification, Reconciliation with God, and Eternal Life. And maybe above all that, a relationship with the Trinity as a family, as friends, being the adopted children of God.
Under the terms of the Old Covenant no flesh could be Justified. (Acts 13:38-41, Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16-21, 3:11) Because the Law itself brought about the wrath of God. But for those that have entered into the New Covenant with God….where there is NO Law, neither is there violation, (Romans 4:15) Christians are not under the Law but under grace. (Romans 10:4 Galatians 5:18) Because apart from the Law Sin is dead. (Romans 7:8) As Christians we serve God in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter of the Law. (Romans 7:6) Because Christ, our savior was the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes in Him. (Romans 10:4, Eph. 2:15) We are Justified by faith apart from the Law. (Romans 3:28, 5:1)
The Apostle Paul referred to the Old Covenant and the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death and condemnation. 2nd Corinthians 3:6-9 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. And Paul said that Yeshua freed us from the curse of the Law. (Galatians 3:12-13)
Also the scriptures read that the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come. (Hebrews 10:1) And it is also written in Hebrews 8:6-7 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. The Old Law was set aside because of its weakness and uselessness. Jesus being the mediator for us, in a better Covenant with God. (Hebrews 7:18-22 & 8:1-13 & 10:9) In Ephesians 2:15&16, Paul had this to say; “….by abolishing in his flesh the ENMITY, which IS the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to DEATH THE ENMITY.
In Galatians Paul had a warning for those that seek to live under the Law or looked to the Law as a moral guide. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4) For those that look to the Laws for righteousness and thereby Sin under the Law, Hebrews has this to say; “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgement, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES ……IT IS A TERRIFYING THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD. (Hebrews 10:26-31) Jesus also pointed this out in John 15:22. In Philippians, Paul called those people that still preached adherence to the Old Laws, dogs, evil workers and warned against false circumcision. (Phil. 3:2-14) In Titus, Paul warned against paying attention to those that preached Jewish myths and commandments of men. (Titus 1:13&14) In John 8:17, Jesus indirectly implies that the Mosaic Law was not His Law saying, “Even in your law it has been written…”
And further on in John 8:31&32 He indicates that to be considered one of His disciples, one most follow His word, and His word would set you free from the Law and Sin; “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” And verses 34-36, go on to further illustrate that the Jewish Covenant and Laws made them slaves to Sin, but Jesus’ Covenant would set His people free of Sin and the Law. “Truly , truly, I say to you, everyone who commits Sin is the slave to Sin. “And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. “If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. And verse 24 had already indicated that the Jews had no hope of salvation unless they accepted Jesus and His Laws. “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your Sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your Sins.”
So was the Apostle Paul saying that the Law was bad, or contrary to the promises of God? No! So what was the purpose for the Laws of Moses and the Ten Commandments? The Apostle Paul offers a few explanations for this. (Romans 15:4 & Galatians 3:17-29) “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” So as it is the phrase Ten Commandments does not appear in the New Testament.
Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified.
Romans 5:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested being witnessed by the Law and the prophets.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
I have read the history and speculations vary. Bottomline, very little of the writings of the Jewish Christians survive outside of the Bible and by the turn of the first century their numbers dwindled. (Even very few of the non-canonical texts are written by Jewish Christians.) Then when Christianity merged with the Roman Empire that Gentile mold was set in stone. Catholics and Protestants alike can trace their bloodline back to the Gentiles.
The writings of the Apostle Paul can be said to be the Gospels for the Gentile Christians. (Modern Christians) Indeed he testifies that most of his Christian instruction did not come from “man” (the Apostles) but from Christ himself. (Galatians 1:11….) So he goes on to explain the details and elements of salvation and the divisions between Judaism and Christianity. Good Deeds are wonderful and a part of Christian application, but salvation is through faith alone. He explains that Christians are not Jewish, they do not follow the Jewish religion or Jewish Law. He explains that Christians are not under the Law about three dozen ways. So what follows is an explanation for this and the relevant scriptures….
Many believe that the phrase “New Testament” means New Text or New Book, when in fact the phrase “New Testament” means “New Covenant.” And there is a reason why the Old Testament is called the OLD Testament. Because it is the portion of the Bible that tells of the time when God’s people “ONCE” lived under the Laws of the OLD Covenants….the Old Agreements. As it is we are not living under two Covenants, two sets of Laws, or two religions. Christianity did not merge with Judaism.
Obviously Christ understood that as He explained that trying to do that would harm both religions. Mark 2:21-22 “No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; otherwise the patch pulls away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear results. No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”
Further more Paul made distinctions between those that are under the Law and those who are not under the Law, but rather faith. (Romans 3:19-21 & 4:14, 16, Galatians 4:21, 1st Cor. 9:20-21) The Old Covenants revealed the Holiness of God in the righteous standard of the Law. God promised his people that compliance to the Law would insure many Earthly rewards and his blessings. The New Covenant reveals the Holiness of God in His righteous Son. The New Testament contains those writing that reveals the Son of God and the New Covenant between God and Man. The New Covenant promises very few Earthly rewards but offers Forgiveness, Grace, Justification, Sanctification, Adoption, Glorification, Reconciliation with God, and Eternal Life. And maybe above all that, a relationship with the Trinity as a family, as friends, being the adopted children of God.
Under the terms of the Old Covenant no flesh could be Justified. (Acts 13:38-41, Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16-21, 3:11) Because the Law itself brought about the wrath of God. But for those that have entered into the New Covenant with God….where there is NO Law, neither is there violation, (Romans 4:15) Christians are not under the Law but under grace. (Romans 10:4 Galatians 5:18) Because apart from the Law Sin is dead. (Romans 7:8) As Christians we serve God in the newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter of the Law. (Romans 7:6) Because Christ, our savior was the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believes in Him. (Romans 10:4, Eph. 2:15) We are Justified by faith apart from the Law. (Romans 3:28, 5:1)
The Apostle Paul referred to the Old Covenant and the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death and condemnation. 2nd Corinthians 3:6-9 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. And Paul said that Yeshua freed us from the curse of the Law. (Galatians 3:12-13)
Also the scriptures read that the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come. (Hebrews 10:1) And it is also written in Hebrews 8:6-7 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. The Old Law was set aside because of its weakness and uselessness. Jesus being the mediator for us, in a better Covenant with God. (Hebrews 7:18-22 & 8:1-13 & 10:9) In Ephesians 2:15&16, Paul had this to say; “….by abolishing in his flesh the ENMITY, which IS the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to DEATH THE ENMITY.
In Galatians Paul had a warning for those that seek to live under the Law or looked to the Law as a moral guide. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4) For those that look to the Laws for righteousness and thereby Sin under the Law, Hebrews has this to say; “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgement, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES ……IT IS A TERRIFYING THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD. (Hebrews 10:26-31) Jesus also pointed this out in John 15:22. In Philippians, Paul called those people that still preached adherence to the Old Laws, dogs, evil workers and warned against false circumcision. (Phil. 3:2-14) In Titus, Paul warned against paying attention to those that preached Jewish myths and commandments of men. (Titus 1:13&14) In John 8:17, Jesus indirectly implies that the Mosaic Law was not His Law saying, “Even in your law it has been written…”
And further on in John 8:31&32 He indicates that to be considered one of His disciples, one most follow His word, and His word would set you free from the Law and Sin; “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” And verses 34-36, go on to further illustrate that the Jewish Covenant and Laws made them slaves to Sin, but Jesus’ Covenant would set His people free of Sin and the Law. “Truly , truly, I say to you, everyone who commits Sin is the slave to Sin. “And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. “If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. And verse 24 had already indicated that the Jews had no hope of salvation unless they accepted Jesus and His Laws. “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your Sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your Sins.”
So was the Apostle Paul saying that the Law was bad, or contrary to the promises of God? No! So what was the purpose for the Laws of Moses and the Ten Commandments? The Apostle Paul offers a few explanations for this. (Romans 15:4 & Galatians 3:17-29) “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” So as it is the phrase Ten Commandments does not appear in the New Testament.
Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified.
Romans 5:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested being witnessed by the Law and the prophets.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
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Roman 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ that you might be joined to another to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 8:1-2 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the Law, do you not listen to the Law….
Galatians 7:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
So then there is the question; What part of the Old Testament is reliant to Christians? To put it simply the historical content of Yahweh, but not the religion of Yahweh in the Old Testament. Proverbs and Psalms written by David and Solomon, have some inspirational sayings. But for me it is inspiring to know that the worst of sinners can still be inspired by God to give wonderful testimonies, and also play an integral part of Yahweh’s plans. And then there are the prophetic books. But regardless, we are not Jews, we follow the laws of Christ and His moral teachings and examples, not the religion of the Jews or their Laws, their customs or their dietary restrictions. The Mosaic Laws are a body of Laws, once you step into them, you are out of the body of Christ.
Romans 8:1-2 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the Law, do you not listen to the Law….
Galatians 7:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
So then there is the question; What part of the Old Testament is reliant to Christians? To put it simply the historical content of Yahweh, but not the religion of Yahweh in the Old Testament. Proverbs and Psalms written by David and Solomon, have some inspirational sayings. But for me it is inspiring to know that the worst of sinners can still be inspired by God to give wonderful testimonies, and also play an integral part of Yahweh’s plans. And then there are the prophetic books. But regardless, we are not Jews, we follow the laws of Christ and His moral teachings and examples, not the religion of the Jews or their Laws, their customs or their dietary restrictions. The Mosaic Laws are a body of Laws, once you step into them, you are out of the body of Christ.
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