Not by works - but by faith

[mailmandan]

Then my reply is good luck to you!

I don’t need luck, I have Jesus Christ as my Savior! I trust in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Praise the Lord! :)

 

[Faither]

John 1:12 is attached with "a personal surrender to Him" in Vine's definition. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. There is the personal surrender to Him. When we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance in Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him, resulting in justification (Romans 5:1) and that is the ROOT of salvation.

The FRUIT of salvation would be living by or "out of" faith, as we see 2 Corinthians 5:7 attached with "a conduct inspired by such surrender" in Vine's definition, which reads - For we walk/live by faith and not by sight. This is our continued walk with the Lord by which by or "out of" faith believers bear fruit/produce works. So faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and "a conduct inspired by surrender" which FOLLOWS and produces good works would be the FRUIT. You are misusing the Vines to mix cause with effect and the end result is salvation by works.

The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4100 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
pisteuo from (4102)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pisteuo 6:174,849
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pist-yoo'-o Verb
Definition

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

NAS Word Usage - Total: 243
believe 118, believed 73, believers 3, believes 29, believing 10, do 1, entrust 1, entrusted 6, entrusting 1, has faith 1

Pisteuo Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

It doesn't take years of study to figure this out, but only to explain it away.

Whenever I try to have a discussion about pisteuo, you disappear on me! So good luck with just believing in God's word.

 

[mailmandan]

Whenever I try to have a discussion about pisteuo, you disappear on me! So good luck with just believing in God's word.

You must be confusing me with someone else. We’ve had multiple discussions about Pisteuo on Christian Chat and you were the disappearing artist. Good luck with your make believe world of faithing.

 

[Faither]

Then my reply is good luck to you!

Ah, no! You have your group of like minded " believers ", so go be with them. You have nothing to challenge my understanding.

 

[Faither]

You must be confusing me with someone else. We’ve had multiple discussions about Pisteuo on Christian Chat and you were the disappearing artist. Good luck with your make believe world of faithing.

It was here two weeks ago. We both had a question for each other. You demanded I answer yours first, I did, then you bailed on me and left me hanging. So keep on your current path. Let someone else have a chance.

 

[mailmandan]

It was here two weeks ago. We both had a question for each other. You demanded I answer yours first, I did, then you bailed on me and left me hanging. So keep on your current path. Let someone else have a chance.

Sure, let someone else have a chance to waste their time with you.

 

[Faither]

Sure, let someone else have a chance to waste their time with you.

Talking about Christ and the only way to connect with Him is never a waste of time. Your worth the effort.

 

[Faither]

You and your household that is.

 

[mailmandan]

Talking about Christ and the only way to connect with Him is never a waste of time.

Very true, yet you don’t offer the only way to connect with Christ and continuing to argue with someone who refuses to accept the truth is a waste of time.

 

[Faither]

Very true, yet you don’t offer the only way to connect with Christ and continuing to argue with someone who refuses to accept the truth is a waste of time.

No, just proof that were in that time in history the scriptures warn about.
2 Tim. 4
"There will come a time when they will not endure sound doctrine."

 

[FollowHim]

My only reply would've good luck with that.

When one understands what Jesus is saying His heart is focused on, you know what walking cleansed and purified means.

If one believes that no human can be cleansed and purified, literally made holy then the only other option for salvation is Jesus's blood covering people. From my perspective this is not what Paul preached. He emphasised that the believers who heard the gospel where God Holy people, because of what Jesus did for them and the life they now led.

Clearly the life one leads does not justify oneself, it is our faith in Christ that does, but the fulfilment of the cross is the walk.
If one abides in a sinful lifestyle, then clearly everything is lost. If sin leads to death, the destruction of all we are in life and in Christ, one cannot compromise and say these issues can be avoided.

Jesus called us a light on the hill. If this light is just faith with sinful lost lifestyles, how can this be a light or anything different than what is in the world? If one teaches the feeling of condemnation is our only expectation in Christ, one is actually saying the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not a reality, peace, patience, kindness, love.

There are many layers to our walk, and many steps to learning what maturity in Christ looks like. Being on these forums demonstrates for some, to not respond to provocation is impossible. But in truth, it is a change of heart and listening to what our hearts desire. Do I want respect or acknowledgement, or acceptance? If Christ lives in people, yes, if not, then all I expect is anger and rejection.

The modern world wants to blur edges of sexuality, of gender identity, of rights and suffering. But the cost of denying things that cannot change, but working with our hearts and attitudes which can change in the grace of God is the message of the cross. Pain does not define who we are, love defines it, no matter the cost, up to our own lives.

When you see a caring young 16 year old, dead at 20 because of sexual exploitation and drug abuse, you begin to see the fruit of sin and how respect for people, ourselves and others is key to our lives today and into eternity. Jesus brings hope because He defines what love through Him can do in our hearts, whether we have seen it in others or not.

 

[Faither]

When one understands what Jesus is saying His heart is focused on, you know what walking cleansed and purified means.

If one believes that no human can be cleansed and purified, literally made holy then the only other option for salvation is Jesus's blood covering people. From my perspective this is not what Paul preached. He emphasised that the believers who heard the gospel where God Holy people, because of what Jesus did for them and the life they now led.

Clearly the life one leads does not justify oneself, it is our faith in Christ that does, but the fulfilment of the cross is the walk.
If one abides in a sinful lifestyle, then clearly everything is lost. If sin leads to death, the destruction of all we are in life and in Christ, one cannot compromise and say these issues can be avoided.

Jesus called us a light on the hill. If this light is just faith with sinful lost lifestyles, how can this be a light or anything different than what is in the world? If one teaches the feeling of condemnation is our only expectation in Christ, one is actually saying the fruit of the Holy Spirit is not a reality, peace, patience, kindness, love.

There are many layers to our walk, and many steps to learning what maturity in Christ looks like. Being on these forums demonstrates for some, to not respond to provocation is impossible. But in truth, it is a change of heart and listening to what our hearts desire. Do I want respect or acknowledgement, or acceptance? If Christ lives in people, yes, if not, then all I expect is anger and rejection.

The modern world wants to blur edges of sexuality, of gender identity, of rights and suffering. But the cost of denying things that cannot change, but working with our hearts and attitudes which can change in the grace of God is the message of the cross. Pain does not define who we are, love defines it, no matter the cost, up to our own lives.

When you see a caring young 16 year old, dead at 20 because of sexual exploitation and drug abuse, you begin to see the fruit of sin and how respect for people, ourselves and others is key to our lives today and into eternity. Jesus brings hope because He defines what love through Him can do in our hearts, whether we have seen it in others or not.

It boils down to what your understanding of what Faith is compared to mine. Lots of things happen when the Spirit of Christ is sealed into a faither.

So in a short paragraph, what specifically is your understanding of how saving Faith is applied that results in recieving the Spirit of Christ?

 

[RogerDC]

Keeping God's laws " or commandments " by our own will is not saving Faith.

You’re right - keeping the commandments is not “saving Faith” (whatever that is) - it is “works” - as in “a man is justified by works and not be faith alone” (James 2:24) and “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).

Why did Jesus say, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15)?

According to 1John 2:3-4, if you don’t strive to keep Christ’s commandments, you are a “liar and the truth is not in you” -
“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected”.

The law is fulfilled once our surrendered life results in receiving the Spirit of Christ.

My understanding is, Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses. This doesn't mean Christians do not have to obey any laws.

When we receive the Spirit of Christ, we receive Christ. When we receive Christ, we are seen by the Father as Christ. We are cloaked with Christ, law perfectly fulfilled!

Oh, so a believer can lie, steal, rape, murder, commit adultery and practise homosexuality and all God will see is the righteousness of Christ. Are you sure about that?

Why are believers commanded to “be holy” and warned that their “deeds” will be judged (1Peter 1:14-17)?

 

[Cooper]

It boils down to what your understanding of what Faith is compared to mine. Lots of things happen when the Spirit of Christ is sealed into a faither.

So in a short paragraph, what specifically is your understanding of how saving Faith is applied that results in recieving the Spirit of Christ?

I believe in chairs, but do I have sufficient faith to sit in every single chair I see?

Faith in a poorly constructed chair will let you down, so make sure your faith is soundly based on truth and not error or you may fall. I also believe in false teachers, but do not put your faith in them, for they will let you down.

You may believe, but is your faith soundly based?

 

[Faither]

You’re right - keeping the commandments is not “saving Faith” (whatever that is) - it is “works” - as in “a man is justified by works and not be faith alone” (James 2:24) and “faith without works is dead” (James 2:26).

Why did Jesus say, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15)?

According to 1John 2:3-4, if you don’t strive to keep Christ’s commandments, you are a “liar and the truth is not in you” -
“And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says ‘I know Him’ but disobeys His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected”. My understanding is, Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses. This doesn't mean Christians do not have to obey any laws. Oh, so a believer can lie, steal, rape, murder, commit adultery and practise homosexuality and all God will see is the righteousness of Christ. Are you sure about that?

Why are believers commanded to “be holy” and warned that their “deeds” will be judged (1Peter 1:14-17)?

I appreciate your commitment to your current understanding, but do you know what being justified means. It simply means to be " just like Christ".

 

[Faither]

I believe in chairs, but do I have sufficient faith to sit in every single chair I see?

Faith in a poorly constructed chair will let you down, so make sure your faith is soundly based on truth and not error or you may fall. I also believe in false teachers, but do not put your faith in them, for they will let you down.

You may believe, but is your faith soundly based?

Let me perfect your analogy?

The Hebrew has two words for Faith, both pictorial. One, to run to the shelter of a mother birds wings. Emphasis on the continual running towards something.

Two, the leaning on a staff with all your weight behind it. Emphasis on the continual weight on the staff.

Faith applied or pisteuo is an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence.

Your analogy was good but seem to make the " object" of our Faith , on our Faith! The object of Faith is the staff, the chair in your case. Overall, good understanding.

Let's keep going with this discussion!

 

[Cooper]

Let me perfect your analogy?

The Hebrew has two words for Faith, both pictorial. One, to run to the shelter of a mother birds wings. Emphasis on the continual running towards something.

Two, the leaning on a staff with all your weight behind it. Emphasis on the continual weight on the staff.

Faith applied or pisteuo is an act, based upon a Belief, sustained by confidence.

Your analogy was good but seem to make the " object" of our Faith , on our Faith! The object of Faith is the staff, the chair in your case. Overall, good understanding.

Let's keep going with this discussion!

The staff is the object of our faith, Jesus is my staff, the faith I have in Him is mine.

 

[Faither]

The staff is the object of our faith, Jesus is my staff, the faith I have in Him is mine.

When we begin the Faith life towards God, we are making specific decisions that make that Faith and the application ours. Specifically by courage and endurance. But as Christ perfects us, I think our Faith becomes less of us and more of Him.

What is your understanding of what we do specifically, what does the act of Faith towards God look like to you?

 

[Cooper]

When we begin the Faith life towards God, we are making specific decisions that make that Faith and the application ours. Specifically by courage and endurance. But as Christ perfects us, I think our Faith becomes less of us and more of Him.

What is your understanding of what we do specifically, what does the act of Faith towards God look like to you?

If I was climbing Mount Everest (life) and I found Jesus, I would follow him for evermore. The key word for me is follow.

 

[Faither]

If I was climbing Mount Everest (life) and I found Jesus, I would follow him for evermore. The key word for me is follow.

Yes I get that, following Christ!

But what specific acts of Faith would you fulfill to follow Him?