The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Full of grace is what catholics everywhere shoehorn into that word. Even the pope that proclaimed her ic;

Ineffabilis Deus- Pius #9 1854
"When the Fathers and writers of the Church meditated on the fact that the most Blessed Virgin was, in the name and by order of God himself, proclaimed full of grace by the Angel Gabriel..."

And? Nada about any immaculate conception or being sinless. None of the lexicons say that. And will you be prepared to latch on to the perfect past participle as unbending as you are now when it refers to our salvation? Or do you pick and choose what doctrines you choose to believe so blindly?

Jerome was a scholar. Youre telling us that he didn't know of any word in latin that translates to 'favor' or 'favored'? As much as i like Jerome, he goofed more than once. He also inserted penance into the latin vulgate. Something the rcc has taken and ran with.

There is no new ark of the covenant. If you knew and understood what the old ark meant, you would be introducing heresy. But i don't think catholics think that far ahead. If they can elevate mary to dizzying heights, who cares what the actual title means?

You‘re not paying attention – or you’re just being purposely obtuse.

I never said that Kecharitomene means ONLY full of grace.
It means MUCH more, as I have shown

Does it means “full of grace”? Yes, but only partially.
It means to be COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY, and ENDURINGLY endowed with grace. To be completely and perfectly endowed with grace implies that you are sinless.

As for Jerome – he DIDN’T insert “favor”. He transliterated Kecharitomene with “Gratia Plena” (full of grace). As I stated in my previous post – there wasn’t a perfect translation for, “Hail, completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace.” – so “Hail, full of grace” was used.

Finally – as to the Ark of the New Covenant – your denials don’t mean a THING unless you can refute the SCRIPTURAL case I presented in post #1213.

Address that – and then we can have an intelligent conversation about it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you people really this obtuse? Those not redeemed have works that God says are filthy rags. Those redeemed i.e. born again have been created for good works by God. So yes, faith in God, being born again is necessary to do the work of the kingdom which as born again believers we WANT to do. Youre arguing for the sake of arguing because what youre posting is nonsensical.

You are conflating Redemption with Justification.
Christ redeemed ALL of mankind on the cross – but NOT all mankind is justified.

“Redeemed” simply means that he PAID for the sins of everybody.
Unless we cooperate with that grace, we cannot be justified or saved.

 

[Taken]

I do not have to pretend I know you , a person is known by their WORKS.

Your works...Likened to the peanut gallery who pops up in the shadows and spews out accusations with no accountability for your actions.

REREAD your post # 1358 (the dreadful beginning of conversing with you)

Glory to God (whether or not YOU APPROVE!)

Taken

 

[reformed1689]

I never said that Kecharitomene means ONLY full of grace.
It means MUCH more, as I have shown

It just doesn't mean sinless.

It means to be COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY, and ENDURINGLY endowed with grace. To be completely and perfectly endowed with grace implies that you are sinless.

I've not seen any legitimate lexicon that actually says that.

Finally – as to the Ark of the New Covenant – your denials don’t mean a THING unless you can refute the SCRIPTURAL case I presented in post #1213.

Except you build that argument on the basis that Mary was sinless which you have not proven, therefore the argument is null and void.

“Redeemed” simply means that he PAID for the sins of everybody.
Unless we cooperate with that grace, we cannot be justified or saved.

If all are redeemed, paid for, then it is unjust for any to go to Hell as there is nothing for them to receive punishment for.

 

[Taken]

Christian -Anointed of the Christ

Really?

So what is a person called that regularly sits in a Christian Church, listening, following along, believing, BUT HAS NOT become Saved or Born Again?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

AHHH NOPE, He had NO flawed flesh or blood . You would know that if you understood the OC sacrifice! A lamb with NO blemish and He was that body and soul. God could not accept anything other! The Word of the Lord!

WHAT? You think Jesus' BLOOD was FLAWED...CORRUPTED? WOW...

No wonder, your WASHING in Jesus' BLOOD was a FAIL!



False. You have been Explained this before.

ANYONE can be TEMPTED, which means ANYONE can be the TARGET of A TEMPTER.

A TEMPTER is one who OFFERS a proposal to another.

The Other is being TEMPTED, by Hearing the TEMPTER.

Satan was the TEMPTER.

Jesus HEARD Satan's OFFER.

"IF" Satan's OFFERING had been "TEMPT-ING" to Jesus...Jesus WOULD HAVE Considered Satan's Offer.

Jesus NEVER "Considered" Satan's OFFER.

Jesus IMMEDIATELY "Rejected" Satan's OFFER.

It was a LESSON to Mankind...
EVIL WILL Tempt men.
LEARN HOW to IMMEDIATELY "REJECT" Evil.

Eve was TEMPTED....and DID NOT IMMEDIATELY "reject" EVIL.
Eve "ENGAGED" Evil....she gave EVIL her Attention...LOOKING AT him, SPEAKING TO him, LISTENING TO him, and Finally SHE reached up and herself TOOK the forbidden fruit and ate of it.

That IS the ACT of "FALLING INTO TEMPTATION".



In YOUR CASE of belief and understanding, that IS your truth, Because your god IS a Human.

That is NOT my belief or understanding.
My God IS NOT a created human. My God IS the creater OF humans. My God was TEMPTED (made offers) BY His human creations and BY His spiritual creations....
And instantly REJECTED both.

Num 14:
[22] Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

Glory to God,
Taken

Perhaps “flawed” was not the best word.
What I meant to convey was that He had the same fragile human body that WE have.

And yes, even flawed, in that he could be hurt, He could bleed and even be killed.
This cannot happen in His glorified body.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So now Luke 1:28 is referring to sanctification? Youre throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. And you keep adding to the definition what is not even there. Your posts smack of desperation.

Luke 1:28 is absolutely about sanctification.

The title means “one who has been COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY and ENDURINGLY endowed with grace.”

Until you can REFUTE the implications of “Kecharitomene” – your argument goes right down the toilet with the excrement you claim I threw at the wall . . .

 

[CovenantPromise]

Perhaps “flawed” was not the best word.
What I meant to convey was that He had the same fragile human body that WE have.

And yes, even flawed, in that he could be hurt, He could bleed and even be killed.
This cannot happen in His glorified body.

Very humble of you .
John 10:17-19
Jesus the Good Shepherd
…17The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.” 19Again there was division among the Jews because of Jesus’ message.…

 

[reformed1689]

Until you can REFUTE the implications of “Kecharitomene” – your argument goes right down the toilet with the excrement you claim I threw at the wall . . .

Until you can show a reputable source that verifies your claim of what it means then your argument is already down the toilet.

 

[Taken]

Perhaps “flawed” was not the best word.

The Point was HIS BLOOD.

You said He had the SAME FLAWED BLOOD as Humans.

It is THROUGH Jesus' "UNCORRUPTED" BLOOD, a human can be Cleansed of his sins.

No. Jesus' Blood was not flawed, nor was His BLOOD the SAME as Humans.

The Sameness IS...
Both humans and Jesus the Lord from Heaven....BOTH HAD BLOOD...
But A humans blood is corrupt.
And the Lords blood was UN-corrupt.
NOT the SAME BLOOD.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

It just doesn't mean sinless.

I've not seen any legitimate lexicon that actually says that.

Except you build that argument on the basis that Mary was sinless which you have not proven, therefore the argument is null and void.

If all are redeemed, paid for, then it is unjust for any to go to Hell as there is nothing for them to receive punishment for.

Again – this is nothing but simple denial - disguised as an actual, valid response – which is it NOT.
You keep running from my posts – no matter HOW I word them. I have asked you TWICE now to answer MY response to YOUR question about my “burden”.

Here it is for a THIRD time:
For “burden” #2 – I’ll ask YOU a question: Are YOU COMPLETELY (finished) and PEFECTLY filled with grace – or is God still working on your sanctification?
When will YOUR sanctification be finished and your completion of grace be perfected?

The answer to this question is crucial to our conversation because it will eliminate any excuses you might have for addressing Mary as Ark of the New Covenant.

Finally – your understanding of Redemption is woefully-ignorant – even by Protestant standards.
Are you saying that you DON’T have to “accept Christ”?? God simply forces His love on some whether we accept Him or not??
The fact that He PAID FOR ALL does NOT mean that ALL will choose to follow Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Point was HIS BLOOD.

You said He had the SAME FLAWED BLOOD as Humans.

It is THROUGH Jesus' "UNCORRUPTED" BLOOD, a human can be Cleansed of his sins.

No. Jesus' Blood was not flawed, nor was His BLOOD the SAME as Humans.

The Sameness IS...
Both humans and Jesus the Lord from Heaven....BOTH HAD BLOOD...
But A humans blood is corrupt.
And the Lords blood was UN-corrupt.
NOT the SAME BLOOD.

Glory to God,
Taken

And the point you keep missing because of your heresy is that, although He was human, Jesus lived a PERFECT life.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Until you can show a reputable source that verifies your claim of what it means then your argument is already down the toilet.

I've already given you THREE.
It's time to man up and address the Scriptural case I made.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Really?

So what is a person called that regularly sits in a Christian Church, listening, following along, believing, BUT HAS NOT become Saved or Born Again?

Glory to God,
Taken

A pew-filler, hopefully on his way to surrendering to Christ.

 

[CovenantPromise]

Really?

So what is a person called that regularly sits in a Christian Church, listening, following along, believing, BUT HAS NOT become Saved or Born Again?

Glory to God,
Taken

Obviously not Christian if they are NOT SAVED and well being born again is called becoming Christian, an anointed of the Christ. Again, being anointed by Christ is being born again as a Christian . You are not a born again Christian. A Christian is born once . You have come from death in sin to life in Christ as a Christian . If you are Christian then you have been born again. You have come from one side of things to the other. Hence , what father Abraham's journey represents. That is why God called him a Hebrew. That is the first time God used that Title for a person. Hebrew means -Traversed One. He came from one side of things -left his father's house and homeland and followed the unseen God. He crossed the Euphrates. Meaning: 'Sweet water in the Greek and in Hebrew 'Good Parat , Good fruitful one'. Everything has meaning and purpose with God. Abram - multitude, which he brought with him when he was called to follow the unseen God. At which point God the Father changed his name to Abraham - father of many/ multitude. So Abraham tasted that the Lord is sweet and crossed from one side of things to the right side of things in following the Word of God. Thus he became the 'Good fruitful one'.

 

[CovenantPromise]

A pew-filler, hopefully on his way to surrendering to Christ.

FUNNY!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay , okay take a chill pill. Rather.... where does it not say that? The only oral form was that spoken by the apostles until they wrote all things down and gave it to the Stewards who have preserved their WORDS. You have NOTHING without their MONUMENTAL something , no matter how you turn it. The scriptures are Holy Spirit inspired and those with the Holy Spirit can not- EVER contradict the scriptures . They are one as our God is. That is elementary. If it were the contrary, we would have Chaos! Good thing for Holy Spirit filled men and women, they know they are united to the scriptures by the VERY same Spirit which gave men the authority to write them. The Foundation- SCRIPTURE and the House are one as God is one and there is harmony which is SOLELY built upon the eternal Word of God. From the Jew to you and all built on the foundation, there is ALWAYS UNITY!

Sooooooo, where does 2 Thess. 2:15 say that everything The Apostles taught will eventually be written down in Scripture??
Answer: It DOESN’T.

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, either by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a letter from us."NO mention of an expiration date.

As for “contradicting” Scripture – Mary’s Immaculate Conception does NOT do this. She acknowledges that she was saved by God – so I’m NOT sure where you’re getting this from.

 

[reformed1689]

For “burden” #2 – I’ll ask YOU a question: Are YOU COMPLETELY (finished) and PEFECTLY filled with grace – or is God still working on your sanctification?
When will YOUR sanctification be finished and your completion of grace be perfected?

Sanctification is complete when we are in Heaven.

The fact that He PAID FOR ALL does NOT mean that ALL will choose to follow Him.

Then you make God unjust. He requires double payment for some sins?

 

[reformed1689]

I've already given you THREE.
It's time to man up and address the Scriptural case I made.

No, you didn't. I already showed the problems with the sources you gave.

 

[Nondenom40]

You are conflating Redemption with Justification.
Christ redeemed ALL of mankind on the cross – but NOT all mankind is justified.

“Redeemed” simply means that he PAID for the sins of everybody.
Unless we cooperate with that grace, we cannot be justified or saved.

I'm not conflating anything. The post i made was in response to someone else regarding works. The unsaved cannot do works pleasing to God. The saved are created for good works.

And the notion ALL people on the planet are redeemed is a huge flaw in your theology. You can't be bought back AND not saved. And redemption does not mean 'paid the sins of everybody'. Crack a lexicon, youre in serious need of one. Youre being influenced by your church not by the truth. Jesus said in Mk 10:45 that He gave His life a ransom for many.....not everybody. If everybody had their sins paid for and by extension their certificate of debt nailed to the cross..Col 2:14, there would be zero people in hell. What kind of god do you have anyway, that redeems all mankind then still ends up throwing many into hell for eternity?

Lurkers, this is the folly of catholicism.