The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Marymog]

And WHY do you think that was a requirement for the successor of Judas?

He is referring to Acts 1: 21-22.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

He is referring to Acts 1: 21-22.

Mary

I know

I want to know why HE thinks that having followed Jesus for His entire ministry was required of Matthias.

 

[reformed1689]

I agree, and Scripture makes it clear, that was the requirement of the Apostles to replace Judas. Using your logic, that only men who were with the original 12 could continue the unbroken teaching of the sound doctrine of the Apostles, means that the sound doctrine of their teachings would cease once all those men are dead. Do you sincerely believe that once all those men were dead that sound doctrine was not taught anymore?

I don't agree that is the logic. I only agree that is what the requirement for the office of an apostle was. I believe the teaching's of those men are where we get our sound doctrine from, namely, that is the authority of Scripture.

I don't understand how your question about Timothy is relevant.

 

[reformed1689]

And WHY do you think that was a requirement for the successor of Judas?

Because that is what Scripture says. That was the criteria the apostles themselves put on him. This is not the start of apostolic succession, there is no such thing.

 

[reformed1689]

And the fact remains that NONE of the verses you presented support Sola Fide – that salvation is by Faith ALONE.

That is your heretical opinion.

You actually accused me of “Heresy” yet you cannot show HOW this is “heretical”.
That’s your quandary.

I have shown you that salvation is faith alone. You reject it, that is on you, not me.

 

[reformed1689]

Kinda like when YOU run away every time I ask you to address “Kecharitomene”.

Oh you mean when you say full of grace somehow equals sinless from birth?

 

[Marymog]

I don't agree that is the logic. I only agree that is what the requirement for the office of an apostle was. I believe the teaching's of those men are where we get our sound doctrine from, namely, that is the authority of Scripture.

I don't understand how your question about Timothy is relevant.

Thank you David.

Man has to interpret Scripture. As we can see from history when that happens we get MANY different interpretations on what it takes to be saved. Scripture makes it clear that only qualified men, men who were taught by the Apostles who then taught others who then taught others (2 Timothy 2:2) were authorized to teach. Not everyone can succeed the Apostles as a teacher (1 Corinthians 12).

It is relevant because at no time does Scripture suggest that Timothy met the requirement of being with the original 12 the entire ministry of Jesus life however he adhered to the sound doctrines taught by the Apostles; just like Matthias did.

Paul instructed Timothy to entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. The teachings of Jesus were passed to Paul who passed that teaching to Timothy who was to pass it to others who would pass it to others who were qualified. Can you not see Apostolic Succession in that passage?

Using your logic, that all the qualified teachers of sound doctrine had to have been with Jesus his entire ministry, is not supported by Scripture.

Using your logic once those men died sound teaching/sound doctrine stopped.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

No, we were talking about whether or not sola fide is biblical. It is. I'm not moving the goalposts, you are.

Is it by faith alone or Scripture alone or grace alone or Christ alone or the glory of God alone? You protestants can't decide.....

How can I have "faith alone" without first having Scripture?

How can we have Scripture without first having Christ?

How can we have Christ without first having the glory of God?

They all can't be "alone"....

Faith without works is dead.....does that sound familiar? Sooooo the "faith alone" theory (brought to you the men of the 16th century) is destroyed with that one passage.

Mary

 

[reformed1689]

It is relevant because at no time does Scripture suggest that Timothy met the requirement of being with the original 12 the entire ministry of Jesus life however he adhered to the sound doctrines taught by the Apostles; just like Matthias did.

Here is where you go wrong. A teacher and an Apostle are not the same thing.

Can you not see Apostolic Succession in that passage?

I see discipleship. Not apostolic succession in the way the Catholic Church tries to make it.

Using your logic, that all the qualified teachers of sound doctrine had to have been with Jesus his entire ministry, is not supported by Scripture.

Nope, strawman argument.

Using your logic once those men died sound teaching/sound doctrine stopped.

Also strawman. I am saying there are no more apostles. I never said there were not teachers/pastors.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is your heretical opinion.

I have shown you that salvation is faith alone. You reject it, that is on you, not me.

No, you haven't.
HOW is my view "heretical"??

 

[reformed1689]

Is it by faith alone or Scripture alone or grace alone or Christ alone or the glory of God alone? You protestants can't decide.....

Boy you really mess that up. It is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the Glory of God alone.

Faith without works is dead.....does that sound familiar? Sooooo the "faith alone" theory (brought to you the men of the 16th century) is destroyed with that one passage.

No actually it isn't. The works are the evidence of the faith. Doesn't destroy faith alone (which is clearly taught in Scripture) at all.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Because that is what Scripture says. That was the criteria the apostles themselves put on him. This is not the start of apostolic succession, there is no such thing.

They had to make sure that the first ELECTED Bishop had the same training as Judas. They needed to make sure that he had learned everything the other Eleven had learned so that HE could pass it onto other successive Bishops (Episkopoi, cf. Acts 1:20).

Matthias fit the bill.

 

[reformed1689]

No, you haven't.
HOW is my view "heretical"??

Because you believe we are saved by something other than faith in Christ.

 

[Marymog]

Here is where you go wrong. A teacher and an Apostle are not the same thing.

Oh au con·traire sir David. That is where YOU go wrong.

The word apostle comes from the Greek word, apostelló, meaning a messenger or one sent on a mission. Such were the original 12 Apostles. Such was Matthias and Timothy. Such were the men who Timothy taught who were to teach others.

If an Apostle is not a teacher then why did the Apostles teach?

You still haven't supported your theory that only men who were with Jesus his entire ministry are the only ones who were allowed to teach. Scripture teaches opposite of your theory.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh you mean when you say full of grace somehow equals sinless from birth?

“Full of grace” is NOT what the Greek says.

It says, “Kecharitomene”, which means, “having been completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace. It is a perfect participle that indicates a COMPLETED act with a PERMANENT result.

How many times do I need to explain this to you guys?

 

[reformed1689]

They had to make sure that the first ELECTED Bishop had the same training as Judas. They needed to make sure that he had learned everything the other Eleven had learned so that HE could pass it onto other successive Bishops (Episkopoi, cf. Acts 1:20).

Bishop and Apostle are not the same thing.

 

[reformed1689]

You still haven't supported your theory that only men who were with Jesus his entire ministry are the only ones who were allowed to teach. Scripture teaches opposite of your theory.

That's not my position. If you are just going to keep saying I am saying something I have not said I'm done with this conversation.

 

[reformed1689]

“Full of grace” is NOT what the Greek says.

It says, “Kecharitomene”, which means, “having been completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace. It is a perfect participle that indicates a COMPLETED act with a PERMANENT result.

How many times do I need to explain this to you guys?

And notice that doesn't mean always sinless.

 

[Marymog]

I see discipleship. Not apostolic succession in the way the Catholic Church tries to make it.

Your theory is that that only men who were with Jesus his entire ministry are the only ones who were allowed to teach or become Apostles. Timothy is the perfect example of how your theory is wrong. The men who were with Jesus his entire ministry (like Matthias) were disciples. Sooooo clearly a disciple can become an Apostle which is......wait for it.....wait for it....Apostolic succession.

Once again, Scripture destroys your theory.

Why do you not believe the Church was strong enough to continue the teachings of the Apostles after their death? Did satan prevail?

Bible study Mary

 

[Marymog]

Boy you really mess that up. It is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the Glory of God alone.

How can it be all four together but ALONE????