The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[Taken]

Uhhhh no.

Not ONE single person here has come to your defense on your heresy that Jesus was NOT a human being as well as God.

I don't REQUIRE anyone to DEFEND what I say.
I don't REQUIRE anyone to AGREE with what I say.

I agree with Scripture.
I disagree with what Catholic Teach, and some Protestants have "adopted" from the Catholic teaching.

They know as well as I do that this is is one of THE basic tenets of Christianity.

"THEY" know and believe what YOU DO?

You are hysterical. You have spent page after page in numerous threads, in numerous posts calling Protestants WRONG for believing what they believe....and anti-Catholic for not agreeing with you....AND NOW you are the Authority in what "THEY" know and believe?

LOL.
I go by what "THEY" have said TO Me on this forum;
It is a waste of time to converse with you.
They sick and tired of your preaching ONLY you are Right and your Judgement is everyone who disagrees with you are Wrong.
They rarely Agree with most of what you say.

And so to your deflection...of abandonment...
You post comment after comment, without Catholics Liking in Agreement what you post!

So What? I could care less which of your Catholic brothers, sisters, friends Agree with you or not. Nor do I DEFLECT to such trivial nonsense, BECAUSE I can not show Verifying Scriptures for what I believe....LIKE YOU.

We may have theological differences - but they have NOT bought into the Docetist Heresy the way that YOU have.

Catholics Teach, JESUS WAS A "HUMAN" man.
Many Protestants, have adopted that "NOTION". So What?

Scripture teaches to FOLLOW after Gods Truth.

Scripture teaches; The Word of God was "made" Flesh, in the "LIKENESS AS" a man.

You even SAID that...and I pointed that out, and you Quicklly Denied it.

You SAY the words, but you do not UNDERSTAND...so you DENY.

"AS a man", is not the same as "IS a Human man".

Scripture is VERY CLEAR...
Men out of the Earth, return to the Earth.
Jesus is Lord, the Word of God, out of the MOUTH OF GOD, came to Earth in the "LIKENESS' As an earthly man, and Returned to God in Heaven.

God does NOT Change.
God IS Spirit.
Nothing whatsoever proclaims GOD "BECAME" a created thing out of the dust of the Earth.

And YOU should have known; It is MEN who proclaimed, Men out of the dust of the earth, are called "HUMANS".
That APPLIES ONLY to Terrestrial men, Out of the dust of the Earth.
That DOES NOT APPLY to Celestial "beings"...
Regardless of "HOW" or "WHAT LIKENESS", they use their power, to APPEAR TO Human men.

God NEVER BECOMES his own "created" being.

God IS Spirit, and can APPEAR to the eyes of Human men IN ANY "FORM" (body), that He pleases.

And it is completely Asinine, to Preach" God had to BECOME a HUMAN, TO Comprehend, the thoughts, feelings, and understanding of Humans... (humanities) AS IF, God was UNAWARE of every, thought, feeling, and understanding of His OWN Creation!

I'm sure there might be SOME here who agree with you - but the bulk of Protestantism does NOT . . .

Personally, I do NOT KNOW the "bulk" of Protestants. But I do know, what Jesus and his Chosen Disciples taught. And I do know, there were others (Jews and Gentiles), not "chosen", who elected to follow Jesus and His teachings"....and the BULK of "JEWS" stopped following Jesus...and the BULK of "GENTILES" who continued to follow Jesus' Teaching, "SOON", (as the chosen disciples died off...Gentiles took over the Churches (established BY Jesus' "chosen disciples",) the Gentiles titling themselves "as Bishops".
The leaders in the Churches established more "TITLES"....and erected more Churches and declared Churches following after Jesus' teachings, as the "UNIVERSAL" Church....or otherwise "CATHOLIC" (derived from the meaning of UNIVERSAL/world wide)...teaching that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God...

And SOON even THAT ^ was corrupted...and the DEAD Apostle Peter was prostmously, without his knowledge, given a Title, and Pretense that Chirst'a Church is built 'UPON" Peter. Pfft!

Who in those EARLY DAYS, were the wiser, When Written Scriptures were Scarce and the majority COULD NOT READ...

You push ORAL Traditions.
Well ya, so did Scripture...
However, you SKIP the part of WHOSE ORAL traditions Scripture speaks of.

OT Oral traditions, came from Gods Word, and was Afterward written in Scripture.
NT Oral traditions, came from Gods Word, and was After written in Scripture.

Catholic Oral traditions, came from Gentile men and was Afterward written in Catholic books.....a MIXTURE of bits from scripture and Gentile "leaders/Bishops" Opinions, Philosophies, Theories, Ideas.

A couple of thousand years, of "Churches" hearing MIXED preaching...yep...does set a LONG precedence.

Praise God, men who COULD read, did READ, Were Faithful to the Lord God....Challenged some of the Teachings of the "Catholic Church"...And what did the "leaders" of the Catholic Church "DO"? The same as YOU have been taught and DO...CALL the one who challenges you....Wrong, telling lies other choice names...

And today...NOT a BIG Secret. Millions of men can read. Millions of men own Bibles. Few go to a Church to have SOMEONE Tell them what to Believe. Few Verify what the Speaker says, and Fewer yet Open their Bibles and Read them.

In essence, it is not shocking that millions of People BELIEVE what they have "heard" repeatedly...

And I would agree, millions of People have "Heard" repeatedly that Jesus "was a HUMAN" man...when Scripture NEVER says so.

And I would also say, the cute little saying of deducing Jesus to a math equasion...100% God and 100% Human...is as Asinine to say any WHOLE of ONE THING is more than 100%.

So, you can skip reading my response and post your pat reply ( ranting ) that you do when you have not a leg to stand on in providing Scripture to verifying your claims.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not sure what verse you are reading but Luke 1:28 says nothing about Mary being sinless. The word does not mean sinless. It means blessed or to receive a benefit. Not sinless.

WRONG.
I have given you the following definition several times now:

Kecharitomene is a perfect participle that indicates a COMPLETED action with a PERMANENT result.
It translates as: COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY and ENDURINGLY endowed with grace.

Only those in Heaven have this kind of endowed grace - and ONLY Mary is given this description in ALL of Scripture.
How about refuting that??

So the church claims. Yet the Church goes against Scripture.

Yet you haven't shown HOW.
Will you ever get around to this??

None of that says the church is higher than God. Scripture is the word of God. That trumps the Church. None of the passages you list say anything contrary. And, in fact, you misinterpret, excuse me, the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH misinterprets these passages as if it gives them authority over sin.

And NOBODY said that the Church was "higher" than God.

Acts 9:4-5 and Heb. 1:22-23 show us that the Church and Christ are ONE. That He identifies His very SELF with His Church.
That's why the Church is called the BODY of Christ (Col. 1:18, 1 Cor. 12).

You have shown that you are absolutely CLUELESS as to what the Church actually is.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Because you don't accept anything that goes against the RCC official interpretation so it is a waste of my time. And I actually have refuted you with Scripture.

No - it's only a waste of time if you're going to post your brief opinions without Scriptural, historical or linguistic evidence.
If you can't make a case using these elements - then you have NO case.

Preaching the truth of Scripture is NEVER a "waste" of time . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't REQUIRE anyone to DEFEND what I say.
I don't REQUIRE anyone to AGREE with what I say.

I agree with Scripture.
I disagree with what Catholic Teach, and some Protestants have "adopted" from the Catholic teaching.

"THEY" know and believe what YOU DO?

You are hysterical. You have spent page after page in numerous threads, in numerous posts calling Protestants WRONG for believing what they believe....and anti-Catholic for not agreeing with you....AND NOW you are the Authority in what "THEY" know and believe?

LOL.
I go by what "THEY" have said TO Me on this forum;
It is a waste of time to converse with you.
They sick and tired of your preaching ONLY you are Right and your Judgement is everyone who disagrees with you are Wrong.
They rarely Agree with most of what you say.

And so to your deflection...of abandonment...
You post comment after comment, without Catholics Liking in Agreement what you post!

So What? I could care less which of your Catholic brothers, sisters, friends Agree with you or not. Nor do I DEFLECT to such trivial nonsense, BECAUSE I can not show Verifying Scriptures for what I believe....LIKE YOU.
Catholics Teach, JESUS WAS A "HUMAN" man.
Many Protestants, have adopted that "NOTION". So What?

Scripture teaches to FOLLOW after Gods Truth.

Scripture teaches; The Word of God was "made" Flesh, in the "LIKENESS AS" a man.

You even SAID that...and I pointed that out, and you Quicklly Denied it.

You SAY the words, but you do not UNDERSTAND...so you DENY.

"AS a man", is not the same as "IS a Human man".

Scripture is VERY CLEAR...
Men out of the Earth, return to the Earth.
Jesus is Lord, the Word of God, out of the MOUTH OF GOD, came to Earth in the "LIKENESS' As an earthly man, and Returned to God in Heaven.

God does NOT Change.
God IS Spirit.
Nothing whatsoever proclaims GOD "BECAME" a created thing out of the dust of the Earth.

And YOU should have known; It is MEN who proclaimed, Men out of the dust of the earth, are called "HUMANS".
That APPLIES ONLY to Terrestrial men, Out of the dust of the Earth.
That DOES NOT APPLY to Celestial "beings"...
Regardless of "HOW" or "WHAT LIKENESS", they use their power, to APPEAR TO Human men.

God NEVER BECOMES his own "created" being.

God IS Spirit, and can APPEAR to the eyes of Human men IN ANY "FORM" (body), that He pleases.

And it is completely Asinine, to Preach" God had to BECOME a HUMAN, TO Comprehend, the thoughts, feelings, and understanding of Humans... (humanities) AS IF, God was UNAWARE of every, thought, feeling, and understanding of His OWN Creation!
Personally, I do NOT KNOW the "bulk" of Protestants. But I do know, what Jesus and his Chosen Disciples taught. And I do know, there were others (Jews and Gentiles), not "chosen", who elected to follow Jesus and His teachings"....and the BULK of "JEWS" stopped following Jesus...and the BULK of "GENTILES" who continued to follow Jesus' Teaching, "SOON", (as the chosen disciples died off...Gentiles took over the Churches (established BY Jesus' "chosen disciples",) the Gentiles titling themselves "as Bishops".
The leaders in the Churches established more "TITLES"....and erected more Churches and declared Churches following after Jesus' teachings, as the "UNIVERSAL" Church....or otherwise "CATHOLIC" (derived from the meaning of UNIVERSAL/world wide)...teaching that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God...

And SOON even THAT ^ was corrupted...and the DEAD Apostle Peter was prostmously, without his knowledge, given a Title, and Pretense that Chirst'a Church is built 'UPON" Peter. Pfft!

Who in those EARLY DAYS, were the wiser, When Written Scriptures were Scarce and the majority COULD NOT READ...

You push ORAL Traditions.
Well ya, so did Scripture...
However, you SKIP the part of WHOSE ORAL traditions Scripture speaks of.

OT Oral traditions, came from Gods Word, and was Afterward written in Scripture.
NT Oral traditions, came from Gods Word, and was After written in Scripture.

Catholic Oral traditions, came from Gentile men and was Afterward written in Catholic books.....a MIXTURE of bits from scripture and Gentile "leaders/Bishops" Opinions, Philosophies, Theories, Ideas.

A couple of thousand years, of "Churches" hearing MIXED preaching...yep...does set a LONG precedence.

Praise God, men who COULD read, did READ, Were Faithful to the Lord God....Challenged some of the Teachings of the "Catholic Church"...And what did the "leaders" of the Catholic Church "DO"? The same as YOU have been taught and DO...CALL the one who challenges you....Wrong, telling lies other choice names...

And today...NOT a BIG Secret. Millions of men can read. Millions of men own Bibles. Few go to a Church to have SOMEONE Tell them what to Believe. Few Verify what the Speaker says, and Fewer yet Open their Bibles and Read them.

In essence, it is not shocking that millions of People BELIEVE what they have "heard" repeatedly...

And I would agree, millions of People have "Heard" repeatedly that Jesus "was a HUMAN" man...when Scripture NEVER says so.

And I would also say, the cute little saying of deducing Jesus to a math equasion...100% God and 100% Human...is as Asinine to say any WHOLE of ONE THING is more than 100%.

So, you can skip reading my response and post your pat reply ( ranting ) that you do when you have not a leg to stand on in providing Scripture to verifying your claims.

Glory to God,
Taken

WOW. Do you ramble on this much on your personal life??

Like I said - I have many differences of theological opinion with different Protestant denominations.
HOWEVER - we share the SAME basic tenets of the faith:

- That God is a Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit
- That God Himself came down and was born of a virgin as a human being - living a perfect life so as to be the perfect sacrifice for the expiation of our sins.
- That Christ rose from the dead by His own power and ascended back to the Father bodily.

Every true Christian believes these Biblical truths.
Every other person who doesn't is NOT a Christian.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have shown your errors many times.

No - you've CLAIMED I was in error nut offer NOTHING in refutation.

CLAIMING and SHOWING are two completely different things . . .

 

[Nondenom40]

Docetism was unequivocally rejected at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 and is regarded as heretical by the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, Coptic Church and many other Christian denominations that accept and hold to the statements of these early church councils. (Wikipedia)

All the evidence indicates that Docetism was combined with some form of Gnosticism and, later on, Manichaeism. In the strict sense it was less a heresy denying a Christian doctrine than a false philosophy, claiming that there was an irreconcilable antagonism between matter and spirit, and for this reason it was thought impossible...

It is the spirit of Docetism that denies the sacramental principle, especially the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, and the thoroughly BIBLICAL use of religious statuary. Docetism is found in most arguments against the Real Substantial Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist that anti-Catholics refuse to admit.

You've given zero facts from scripture that what your church teaches has any validity. And it doesn't. I can provide verses where God indwells His born again believers. Nowhere does the bible say God becomes lifeless bread that has to be carried because it can't walk. It can't talk. It does absolutely nothing. But thats YOUR god not mine. The 'real presence' is "Christ IN YOU the hope of glory".

 

[BreadOfLife]

You've given zero facts from scripture that what your church teaches has any validity. And it doesn't. I can provide verses where God indwells His born again believers. Nowhere does the bible say God becomes lifeless bread that has to be carried because it can't walk. It can't talk. It does absolutely nothing. But thats YOUR god not mine. The 'real presence' is "Christ IN YOU the hope of glory".

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was a human being as well as God - or that He was just spirit?

 

[Taken]

That's ALL I've been doing.
EVERY Catholic teaching I have presented - or defended here is verified in Scripture.

You have Expressed:

You became Indwelt with the Holy spirit...
WITHOUT you having belief, submitted your life to the Lord, or your knowledge.

You have taught; Mary was naturally born from her mother's womb, without sin.

You have taught; Gods seed fertalized Mary's Egg, and produced Jesus, whom you call Human, and say He has Mary's human DNA.

You have beat around the bush with Implication that Mary has a Title, and the Title means "full of Grace", and that "FULL of Grace" means "Sinless".

None of these claims have you verified as being taught in Scripture.
When asked to provide Verifying Scripture...
You produce Scripture that has nothing to do with verifying your claims...or you simply divert to another topic or attack the other person with your namecalling and accusations.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

No - it's only a waste of time if you're going to post your brief opinions without Scriptural, historical or linguistic evidence.
If you can't make a case using these elements - then you have NO case.

Preaching the truth of Scripture is NEVER a "waste" of time . . .

I'm not going to cast pearls before swine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm not going to cast pearls before swine.

TRANSLATION:
"I don't have ANY Scriptural refutation for the evidence you presented."

That's what I thought . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Kecharitomene is a perfect participle that indicates a COMPLETED action with a PERMANENT result.
It translates as: COMPLETELY, PERFECTLY and ENDURINGLY endowed with grace.

Where are you getting this definition from? Source?

Only those in Heaven have this kind of endowed grace - and ONLY Mary is given this description in ALL of Scripture.
How about refuting that??

You have to prove why you are using that definition first. She was the only one favored to carry God in her womb. That doesn't mean sinless and you have yet to prove it does.

Yet you haven't shown HOW.
Will you ever get around to this??

For starters, the Roman Catholic Church, a false church, says Mary was sinless. This is against Scripture. Therefore, against God.

And NOBODY said that the Church was "higher" than God.

Sure you do. When you say that what the Church teaches is above Scripture you make it higher than the Words of God Himself.

Acts 9:4-5 and Heb. 1:22-23 show us that the Church and Christ are ONE. That He identifies His very SELF with His Church.
That's why the Church is called the BODY of Christ (Col. 1:18, 1 Cor. 12).

Yeah and a married couple become "one" that doesn't mean they are the same thing. Nor does this help argue your case that the church has final and full authority over Scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have Expressed:

You became Indwelt with the Holy spirit...
WITHOUT you having belief, submitted your life to the Lord, or your knowledge.

You have taught; Mary was naturally born from her mother's womb, without sin.

You have taught; Gods seed fertalized Mary's Egg, and produced Jesus, whom you call Human, and say He has Mary's human DNA.

You have beat around the bush with Implication that Mary has a Title, and the Title means "full of Grace", and that "FULL of Grace" means "Sinless".

None of these claims have you verified as being taught in Scripture.
When asked to provide Verifying Scripture...
You produce Scripture that has nothing to do with verifying your claims...or you simply divert to another topic or attack the other person with your namecalling and accusations.

Glory to God,
Taken

Actually - this is a LIE.

The Greek word describing Mary used in Luke 1:28 is "Kecharitomene".
The NT was written in GREEK - not English. I haven't been "beating around the bush". I'm stating categorically that this is what the Word of GOD says - and YOU have not been able to address it . . .

 

[reformed1689]

Actually - this is a LIE.

The Greek word describing Mary used in Luke 1:28 is "Kecharitomene".
The NT was written in GREEK - not English. I haven't been "beating around the bush". I'm stating categorically that this is what the Word of GOD says - and YOU have not been able to address it . . .

You are operating on a false definition of the word. What is your source for your definition?

 

[reformed1689]

TRANSLATION:
"I don't have ANY Scriptural refutation for the evidence you presented."

That's what I thought . . .

No, that's not what I said. I've given Scriptural refutation, you reject it because it isn't what the RCC teaches.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where are you getting this definition from? Source?
You have to prove why you are using that definition first. She was the only one favored to carry God in her womb. That doesn't mean sinless and you have yet to prove it does.

For starters:
The Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Blass and DeBrunner
Kecharitomene (Lk. 1:28) in the Light of Gen. 18:16-33: A Matter of Quantity, François Rossier, University of Dayton

For starters, the Roman Catholic Church, a false church, says Mary was sinless. This is against Scripture. Therefore, against God.

Once again - this is PURE anti-Catholic OPINION. You haven't provided ANY evidence.
Besides - there is NO such entity as "The Roman Catholic Church". There is "The Catholic Church" which has Roman Catholics and Melkite Catholics and Byzantine Catholics, etc,

Sure you do. When you say that what the Church teaches is above Scripture you make it higher than the Words of God Himself.

YOU'RE the only one claiming that the Church says its teachings are "above" Scripture,
The Church doesn't teach this.

Yeah and a married couple become "one" that doesn't mean they are the same thing. Nor does this help argue your case that the church has final and full authority over Scripture.

Married couples become ONE in God's eyes. EVERYTHING about them is ONE - just like Christ and His Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, that's not what I said. I've given Scriptural refutation, you reject it because it isn't what the RCC teaches.

No, you haven't. You have given your opinions.

 

[Nondenom40]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was a human being as well as God - or that He was just spirit?

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[BreadOfLife]

What does that have to do with anything?

That was the main point that @epostle was making.
The Real Presence was a side issue from that topic.

So - do you believe that Jesus Christ was a human being as well as God - or that He was just spirit?

 

[Nondenom40]

That was the main point that @epostle was making.
The Real Presence was a side issue from that topic.

So - do you believe that Jesus Christ was a human being as well as God - or that He was just spirit?

Jesus is fully God and fully human. What he is not is bread to be eaten.

 

[Taken]

WOW. Do you ramble on this much on your personal life??

LOL... I notice you Are regularly confused with the difference between me being thorough and your favorite of repeating the Reader's Digest condensed version of your Belief.

Like I said - I have many differences of theological opinion with different Protestant denominations.
HOWEVER - we share the SAME basic tenets of the faith:

So? I have not changed what you said....
I have said what I believe, and you have reworded what I have said and inserted "your words", then claim what I believe is wrong.

- That God is a Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit
- That God

Himself came down and was born of a virgin "as a" human being - living a perfect life so as to be the perfect sacrifice for the expiation of our sins.
- That Christ rose from the dead by His own power and ascended back to the Father bodily.

Apparently you are UNAWARE, Jesus IS God, God is Spirit, HUMAN MEN cannot SEE God, unless "HE APPEARS" in a "FASHION" Human men CAN SEE! His APPEARENCE in FLESH, In the LIKENESS AS a Human man, didn't CHANGE God...and Certainly didn't MAKE Him "A Created HUMAN"...Jesus took UPON Himself...the BODY God prepared for Him...FOR WHEN He came INTO THE WORLD. .Hisself Didn't Change...Hisself WAS and IS STILL the FORM (body) of God, that No human man has SEE!

Why do you Keep calling Jesus A HUMAN man?
Why do you NOT know Human men came from the Dust of the Earth and return to the Earth?
Why do you NOT know Jesus Came out from God in Heaven and down to Earth and RETURNED to God IN Heaven?

Really, YOUR God "IS" a created Human man?
That is probably the most Absurd teaching, the "modern" Catholics came up with.

Every true Christian believes these Biblical truths.
Every other person who doesn't is NOT a Christian.

So? You write one thing..."AS A HUMAN"...
then YOU Teach and Preach...."IS" A Human..

You are in conflict with yourself.

Glory to God,
Taken