The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

underlined words do not equal evidence-based responses.

No - Scripture, history and linguistic explanations do.
ALL of which I have presented - while YOU have presented zilch.

 

[BreadOfLife]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...69ef5e-9647-11e8-80e1-00e80e1fdf43_story.html

How is this a contradiction??

This has been a developing teaching for YEARS because of modern crime-solving procedures, DNA evidence, vastly improved incarceration security, etc.
This teaching was NEVER fully defined. It was always left up to each situation.

Listen - if you don't understand a Catholic teaching - and it appears that you don't understand ANY - then don't try to argue the point.
It's embarrassing to watch . . .

 

[reformed1689]

How is this a contradiction??

This has been a developing teaching for YEARS because of modern crime-solving procedures, DNA evidence, vastly improved incarceration security, etc.
This teaching was NEVER fully defined. It was always left up to each situation.

Listen - if you don't understand a Catholic teaching - and it appears that you don't understand ANY - then don't try to argue the point.
It's embarrassing to watch . . .

It was once accepted by the Church, now no longer is. If you say that is not a contradiction then you can't be honest or objective.

 

[reformed1689]

No - Scripture, history and linguistic explanations do.
ALL of which I have presented - while YOU have presented zilch.

Only in your deluded brainwashed mind have I presented zilch.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It was once accepted by the Church, now no longer is. If you say that is not a contradiction then you can't be honest or objective.

WRONG.

You don't have a clue as to how doctrine develops - do you? This was never a set doctrine of the Catholic Church - ii was largely a matter of opinion - like Limbo.

If you can't present an intelligent argument against a Catholic teaching - then either do your homework - or don't embarrass yourself by pretending you know what you're talking about.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Only in your deluded brainwashed mind have I presented zilch.

WRONG.

Our entire conversation has been me giving a litany of Scriptural evidence for the Catholic position – and YOU giving short, hit-and-run remarks with ZERO relevant Biblical reference,
Let's recap, shall we?

In post #842 – I obliterated your claim that Rom. 3:10 includes Mary – and therefore she couldn’t be sinless.
YOU never gave a Biblical refutation but just a short snarky comment.

In post #881 – regarding Oral Tradition, I challenged you to refute the passages I presented that explicitly teach that NOT everything Jesus taught was on the pages of Scripture.
YOU responded with a quick remark – but ZERO Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

In post #885 – I destroyed your false Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura by showing you – from Scripture – that the CHURCH and not the Scriptures are our final Authority.
You responded with NOTHING.

This is but a tiny example of our conversations on this forum.
As usual – you’ve brought a pea-shooter to a gunfight and you were knocked out pages ago . . .

 

[Taken]

Like I said before - WHERE is all of your supppprt??

My support is and has always been in Scriptural Verification, as you have been shown.

EVERY SINGLE Protestant Christian here has abandoned your side because you preached heresy about Christ's humanity.

LOL ~ No, it is not abandonedment. They have already stated, conversing with you is a waste of time and effort, and they think I am wasting my time and effort conversing with you.
However I do NOT converse with you for YOUR BENEFIT, as if you MIGHT agree with Scripture. I simply disagree with you, that Catholic Teaching "TRUMPS" Gods Word written in Scripture, that OTHERS may not FALL for your Catholic Teaching, and instead Trust the Scriptures for gaining the TRUTH of God.

This isn't about ME being Catholic. It's about YOU having abandoned Christianity . . .

You have chosen to Believe Catholic Teaching;
And yourself Teaching;
That Mary was naturally born without sin,
That Mary's egg was fertilized with Gods SEED,
That Jesus had HUMAN charastics of DNA.
That Jesus was a HUMAN man.

Scripture teaches no such things.
Nor have you provided ANY Scripture or Teaching of Jesus' Disciples that made ANY such Claims.

Christianity is NOT about "following" after the made up ideas, notions, philosophies of earthly men...BUT rather IS about "following" after Gods TRUTH.

You may have concerns About being "abandoned" by Catholics...or "your friends"...
However I am not the one following mens "made up" philosophies and theories. I follow after the Lords Teaching, and have NO cause to fear His abandonment, which is ALL that is important to me.

Your comment about me being "abandoned' by Protestants and Friends, is simply another one of your Deflections, that serve no purpose, but to make yourself feel good, when you can not show BY the written Word of God, any verification of your Catholic taught claims.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

My support is and has always been in Scriptural Verification, as you have been shown.

LOL ~ No, it is not abandonedment. They have already stated, conversing with you is a waste of time and effort, and they think I am wasting my time and effort conversing with you.
However I do NOT converse with you for YOUR BENEFIT, as if you MIGHT agree with Scripture. I simply disagree with you, that Catholic Teaching "TRUMPS" Gods Word written in Scripture, that OTHERS may not FALL for your Catholic Teaching, and instead Trust the Scriptures for gaining the TRUTH of God.

You have chosen to Believe Catholic Teaching;
And yourself Teaching;
That Mary was naturally born without sin,
That Mary's egg was fertilized with Gods SEED,
That Jesus had HUMAN charastics of DNA.
That Jesus was a HUMAN man.

Scripture teaches no such things.
Nor have you provided ANY Scripture or Teaching of Jesus' Disciples that made ANY such Claims.

Christianity is NOT about "following" after the made up ideas, notions, philosophies of earthly men...BUT rather IS about "following" after Gods TRUTH.

You may have concerns About being "abandoned" by Catholics...or "your friends"...
However I am not the one following mens "made up" philosophies and theories. I follow after the Lords Teaching, and have NO cause to fear His abandonment, which is ALL that is important to me.

Your comment about me being "abandoned' by Protestants and Friends, is simply another one of your Deflections, that serve no purpose, but to make yourself feel good, when you can not show BY the written Word of God, any verification of your Catholic taught claims.

Glory to God,
Taken

Uhhhhhh, no.

Not ONE single person here has come to your defense on your heresy that Jesus was NOT a human being as well as God.
They know as well as I do that this is is one of THE basic tenets of Christianity. We may have theological differences - but they have NOT bought into the Docetist Heresy the way that YOU have.

I'm sure there might be SOME here who agree with you - but the bulk of Protestantism does NOT . . .

 

[Taken]

If you can't present an intelligent argument against a Catholic teaching - then either do your homework - or don't embarrass yourself by pretending you know what you're talking about.

You want an "INTELLIGENT" argument against Catholic teaching?

Then...Present a Catholic "TEACHING" that is Verified in SCRIPTURE!

The Rejection of Catholic Teaching, IS much of WHAT Catholic Teaching hinges ON, which IS NOT in Scripture....It is MADE UP Doctrine, from Ideas, Philosophies, Theories, and Greed of men.

Rejection, is "NOT' an "argument"...
Disagreement, is "NOT" an "argument"...

It is Rejection and Disagreement men are presenting Against Catholic Teaching.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

WRONG.

Our entire conversation has been me giving a litany of Scriptural evidence for the Catholic position – and YOU giving short, hit-and-run remarks with ZERO relevant Biblical reference,
Let's recap, shall we?

In post #842 – I obliterated your claim that Rom. 3:10 includes Mary – and therefore she couldn’t be sinless.
YOU never gave a Biblical refutation but just a short snarky comment.

In post #881 – regarding Oral Tradition, I challenged you to refute the passages I presented that explicitly teach that NOT everything Jesus taught was on the pages of Scripture.
YOU responded with a quick remark – but ZERO Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

In post #885 – I destroyed your false Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura by showing you – from Scripture – that the CHURCH and not the Scriptures are our final Authority.
You responded with NOTHING.

This is but a tiny example of our conversations on this forum.
As usual – you’ve brought a pea-shooter to a gunfight and you were knocked out pages ago . . .

Yeah, you may think you have destroyed arguments but all you have done is repeat your brainwashing dogma. All you have demonstrated is you believe the church over Scripture.

 

[reformed1689]

me giving a litany of Scriptural evidence

No, you give Scripture out of context while ignoring other passages.

In post #842 – I obliterated your claim that Rom. 3:10 includes Mary – and therefore she couldn’t be sinless.
YOU never gave a Biblical refutation but just a short snarky comment.

Show me one verse that says Mary was sinless. Just one. And you didn't obliterate my claim that Romans 3:10 includes Mary. you did nothing of the sort.

In post #881 – regarding Oral Tradition, I challenged you to refute the passages I presented that explicitly teach that NOT everything Jesus taught was on the pages of Scripture.
YOU responded with a quick remark – but ZERO Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

I said we do not know that anything outside of Scripture is actually what was taught by Jesus or the disciples. We only have Scripture as the record.

In post #885 – I destroyed your false Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura by showing you – from Scripture – that the CHURCH and not the Scriptures are our final Authority.
You responded with NOTHING.

Now you did not show one verse that says that. Not one. Because one does not exist.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you give Scripture out of context while ignoring other passages.

Then show me HOW they are out of context.

Show me one verse that says Mary was sinless. Just one. And you didn't obliterate my claim that Romans 3:10 includes Mary. you did nothing of the sort.

I already showed you Luke 1:28 repeatedly - and gave you her title of "Kecharitomene" along with its definition.
YOU responded with NOTHING.

I said we do not know that anything outside of Scripture is actually what was taught by Jesus or the disciples. We only have Scripture as the record.

We ABSOLUTELY do. It's called APOSTOLIC TRADITION - and it's been handed down through the centuries from the Apostles themselves.

Now you did not show one verse that says that. Not one. Because one does not exist.

Wanna bet??
This is the Scriptural evidence I presented yo which YOU failed to respond with evidence of your own . . .

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”


“WHATEVER” the Church binds or looses.
“WHATEVER” sins the Church forgives or retains.

This illustrates SUPREME earthly Authority.
YOUR turn . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, you may think you have destroyed arguments but all you have done is repeat your brainwashing dogma. All you have demonstrated is you believe the church over Scripture.

Then PROVE me wrong.
CAN you do that?

If I'm preaching a perverted Gospel - it is your DUTY as a Christian to set me straight.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You want an "INTELLIGENT" argument against Catholic teaching?
Then...Present a Catholic "TEACHING" that is Verified in SCRIPTURE!

The Rejection of Catholic Teaching, IS much of WHAT Catholic Teaching hinges ON, which IS NOT in Scripture....It is MADE UP Doctrine, from Ideas, Philosophies, Theories, and Greed of men.

Rejection, is "NOT' an "argument"...
Disagreement, is "NOT" an "argument"...

It is Rejection and Disagreement men are presenting Against Catholic Teaching.

Glory to God,
Taken

That's ALL I've been doing.
EVERY Catholic teaching I have presented - or defended here is verified in Scripture.

 

[epostle]

Docetism was unequivocally rejected at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 and is regarded as heretical by the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, Coptic Church and many other Christian denominations that accept and hold to the statements of these early church councils. (Wikipedia)

All the evidence indicates that Docetism was combined with some form of Gnosticism and, later on, Manichaeism. In the strict sense it was less a heresy denying a Christian doctrine than a false philosophy, claiming that there was an irreconcilable antagonism between matter and spirit, and for this reason it was thought impossible...

It is the spirit of Docetism that denies the sacramental principle, especially the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, and the thoroughly BIBLICAL use of religious statuary. Docetism is found in most arguments against the Real Substantial Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist that anti-Catholics refuse to admit.

 

[epostle]

2 Timothy 1:13-14 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus;
[14] guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

2 Timothy 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

St. Paul is here urging Timothy not only to “follow the pattern” of his oral teaching “heard from me,” but to also pass it on to others. Thus we find a clear picture of some sort of authentic historical continuity of Christian doctrine. This is precisely what the Catholic Church calls tradition, or, when emphasizing the teaching authority of bishops in the Church, “apostolic succession.” The phrase “deposit of faith” is also used when describing the original gospel teaching as handed over or delivered to the apostles (see, e.g., Acts 2:42; Jude 3).

The Catholic Church considers itself merely the custodian or guardian of this revelation from God. The New Testament itself is a written encapsulation of primitive, apostolic Christianity: the authoritative and inspired written revelation of God’s new covenant. It is a development, so to speak, of both the Old Testament and early oral Christian preaching and teaching (i.e., tradition). The process of canonization of the New Testament took over 300 years and involved taking into account human opinions and traditions as to which books were believed to be Scripture.

Thus, the Bible cannot be separated and isolated from tradition and a developmental process. Christianity does not take the view of Islam, whose written revelation, the Q’uran, simply came down from heaven from Allah to Mohammad, without involving human participation in the least. Some extreme, fundamentalist forms of sola Scriptura have a very similar outlook, but these fail the test of Scripture itself, like all the other manifestations of the “Bible Alone” mentality. As we have seen, Scripture does not nullify or anathematize Christian tradition, which is larger and more all-encompassing than itself; quite the contrary.

"Tradition" Isn't a Dirty Word

 

[reformed1689]

I already showed you Luke 1:28 repeatedly - and gave you her title of "Kecharitomene" along with its definition.
YOU responded with NOTHING.

Not sure what verse you are reading but Luke 1:28 says nothing about Mary being sinless. The word does not mean sinless. It means blessed or to receive a benefit. Not sinless.

We ABSOLUTELY do. It's called APOSTOLIC TRADITION - and it's been handed down through the centuries from the Apostles themselves.

So the church claims. Yet the Church goes against Scripture.

Wanna bet??
This is the Scriptural evidence I presented yo which YOU failed to respond with evidence of your own . . .

Matt 16:16-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”


“WHATEVER” the Church binds or looses.
“WHATEVER” sins the Church forgives or retains.

This illustrates SUPREME earthly Authority.
YOUR turn . . .

None of that says the church is higher than God. Scripture is the word of God. That trumps the Church. None of the passages you list say anything contrary. And, in fact, you misinterpret, excuse me, the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH misinterprets these passages as if it gives them authority over sin.

 

[reformed1689]

Then PROVE me wrong.
CAN you do that?

If I'm preaching a perverted Gospel - it is your DUTY as a Christian to set me straight.

I have shown your errors many times.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have shown your errors many times.

Np - you've only posted brief, hit-and-run comments.
How about a well-thought-out Scriptural and historical refutation for a change??

 

[reformed1689]

Np - you've only posted brief, hit-and-run comments.
How about a well-thought-out Scriptural and historical refutation for a change??

Because you don't accept anything that goes against the RCC official interpretation so it is a waste of my time. And I actually have refuted you with Scripture.