The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Again you are using eisigeses. You are reading into the passage. It does not say, whatever they (future) tell you. It says what they have received from HIM. In other words, they were not allowed to teach anything different. IN FACT, if they did teach something different they were to be rejected.

Galatians 1:8
2 Tim. 4:3-4
1 Timothy 6
2 Cor. 11:12-15

Your position is only valid if you van show me- FROM SCRIPTURE - that Scripture contains everything that Jesus and the Holy Spirit taught the Apostles.
The fact is that the Scriptures themselves states explicitly that they DON'T.

John 23:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Gal. 1:11
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

What Paul PREACHED is the ORAL TRADITION he is talking about in 2 Thess. 2:15.
It is the "rich trust" of the faith he is talking about in 2 Tim. 1:14.

 

[reformed1689]

Your position is only valid if you van show me- FROM SCRIPTURE - that Scripture contains everything that Jesus and the Holy Spirit taught the Apostles.
The fact is that the Scriptures themselves states explicitly that they DON'T.

John 23:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Gal. 1:11
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

What Paul PREACHED is the ORAL TRADITION he is talking about in 2 Thess. 2:15.
It is the "rich trust" of the faith he is talking about in 2 Tim. 1:14.

Even if it is not, it does not give license for the same authority to future persons. They can only repeat what the apostles and Christ actually said and taught. They cannot bring anything new to the table.

 

[BreadOfLife]

By the way @BreadOfLife and @epostle these are all verses verifying sola scriptura.

Uhhhh, by the way - they're NOT.

NONE of the following verses have ANYTHING to do with the Scriptures at all. They deal with false teachers.
1 Tim. 6, which was too long to post is ALSO about false teachers and has ZERO to do with the authority of Scripture.

Gal. 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we PREACHED unto you, let him be anathema.

2 Tim. 4:3-4
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching EARS want to HEAR. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Cor. 11:12-15
And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they BOAST about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

 

[reformed1689]

Uhhhh, by the way - they're NOT.

NONE of the following verses have ANYTHING to do with the Scriptures at all. They deal with false teachers.
1 Tim. 6, which was too long to post is ALSO about false teachers and has ZERO to do with the authority of Scripture.

Gal. 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we PREACHED unto you, let him be anathema.

2 Tim. 4:3-4
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching EARS want to HEAR. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Cor. 11:12-15
And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they BOAST about. For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Of course it is, it is talking about not going against the Scriptures. That is where sound doctrine comes from the Scriptures and Scripture alone. That is where the Gospel traditions come from. Scriptures alone. We have sermons of Paul, Peter, Christ, and others. We have their writings. We are to stick to these and to these alone.

The church does not have the authority to navigate away from the Scriptures, nor to change them, nor to relax them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Even if it is not, it does not give license for the same authority to future persons. They can only repeat what the apostles and Christ actually said and taught. They cannot bring anything new to the table.

Exactly. NOW you're learning . . .

Matt 16:19
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide YOU to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course it is, it is talking about not going against the Scriptures. That is where sound doctrine comes from the Scriptures and Scripture alone. That is where the Gospel traditions come from. Scriptures alone. We have sermons of Paul, Peter, Christ, and others. We have their writings. We are to stick to these and to these alone.

The church does not have the authority to navigate away from the Scriptures, nor to change them, nor to relax them.

And you have YET to present even ONE LINE of Scripture to back up your claim in RED.
Not ONE line . . .

 

[reformed1689]

I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

This is speaking of knowledge/teaching.

Matt. 18:18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is in the context of church discipline and confronting sin.

But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide YOU to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.

This is to the 12 disciples.

Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

This is not giving them authority to grant forgiveness of sins on their own, rather as working agents of the spirit to give the Gospel. It is God and God alone who forgives.

 

[reformed1689]

And you have YET to present even ONE LINE of Scripture to back up your claim in RED.
Not ONE line . . .

Of course it does, teach only what they have said or have written. Since we do not know what they said, we can ONLY go by what is written and recorded that they have said.

 

[Berserk]

This is just a stupid comment.

Why do Baptists so often resort to insults when they are incapable of seasoning their penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor. Now reread my argument and see if you can see past your gob-smacked reaction to make at least a token effort at a rational response.

 

[Taken]

To state that Jesus was merely a spirit masquerading "AS A HUMAN" is not only Heresy - it's idiotic.

[BOL post # 870]
He wasn't manifested "AS A HUMAN"
being until the NT.

Where are all your non-Catholic friends?

Can't say for sure. Perhaps smiling to Finally see the self-proclaimed Catholic teacher in Agreement with Scripture that Jesus came to earth "AS" a human.

Phil 2
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in [B Christ Jesus: [/B]
[6] Who, being in the Form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the Form of a servant, and was made in the LIKENESS of men:
[8] And being found in fashion AS a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now... IF you can keep this knowledge IN your Mind, You THEN
will be blessed (by the POWER of God), IN your spirit, IN your Heart, WITH the Understanding thereof that knowledge.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

And NOWHERE do these verses imply that God is a “kind” of Man because there is only ONE kind of Man – the Human kind.

Numbers 23:

[19] God is not a man THAT (he should lie)...

BOL - What "KIND" of man "IS" your god?

A Created HUMAN ?

You are teaching Your god created Himself?

Strange!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[reformed1689]

Why do Baptists so often resort to insults when they are incapable of seasoning their penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor. Now reread my argument and see if you can see past your gob-smacked reaction to make at least a token effort at a rational response.

Yeah, read it again, it is still a stupid comment and not worth me wasting my time on it.

 

[Taken]

NONE of the following verses have ANYTHING to do with the Scriptures at all.

LOL...

The Verses "IN SCRIPTURE" have nothing at all to do "WITH SCRIPTURE" ?

Your Catholic teaching gets more and more Bizarre.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Nondenom40]

Just the opposite! The Scriptures only have authority when they are faithful to church doctrine. How so? Because the Church (not the NT docments) gets her authority from Christ and because it is the Church that decided on the basis of Church doctrine which documents would and would not be considered Scripture! None of our 4 Gospels claim divine inspiration. Rather, we credit them with divine inspiration because we believe the Church was divinely inspired to select them as Scripture. ! Clement claims to be divinely inspired and Hebrews does not. The NT church (at Corinth) accepted 1 Clement as authoritative, but over time the Catholic Church rejected this claim and accepted Hebrews as canonical. We agree with this decision to accept Hebrews and reject 1 Clement because we believe the Spirit guided the Catholic church in her selection of canonical books. Evangelicals unwittingly act as if the Holy Spirit abandoned the Church after the apostolic age and returned to the Church only after the Reformation. So sad!

And this post is wrong on many levels. Too many errors to correct. "Scripture only has authority when they are faithful to church doctrine?" This makes little sense. Thats just one.

 

[Nondenom40]

REALLY? People are READING Scripture to FIND OUT, they were NATURALLY BORN with a MIND that can MAKE it's OWN "behavioral" CHOICES of the person?

LOL.

The Scriptures ARE FULL of descriptions of BEHAVIORS of people.
Behaviors THAT, are ACCEPTABLE to GOD...
...called Good.
Behaviors THAT, are UNACCEPTABLE to GOD..
...called Bad, Evil, Wicked.

You are trying to PASS OFF, "sola scriptura", as "A JUSTIFICATION" for "EVIL Behaviors"?

Scripture itself TEACHES, the CARNAL MIND IS AGAINST GOD.

NO WHERE in Scripture is it taught, "EVIL Behaviors" (conjoured up in the Carnal Mind), is JUSTIFIED.

You are MIXING, and trying to project, that a man with a NATURAL Carnal Mind, is USING Scripture as a Basis to BE JUSTIFIED to "BEHAVE" EVILY pertaining to SECULAR things.

Hogwash. A man WITH a Carnal Mind, NEEDS nothing IN Scripture to notify him HIS MIND can think EVIL and WICKED THOUGHTS, and he can ACT on those thoughts.

Parents, Schools, or otherwise ANY Caretaker who is Rearing, Teaching, Shaping the minds of Children can TEACH, ANYTHING they Please that fosters their OWN AGENDA, REGARDLESS of what Scripture says.



Nonsense. Scripture IS FULL of Gods TRUTH. Gods TRUTH WILL Never fade away, regardless IF one Believes it, or not.

Glory to God,
Taken

Most catholics i talk with don't even understand sola scriptura. Whenever they bring it up, they do so incorrectly. But if ss is so bad maybe they can tell us about the sorry state of their own church with an infallible (allegedly) pope? Why is there scandal on top of scandal when they are all in union under their human vicar of christ?

 

[Taken]

Most catholics i talk with don't even understand sola scriptura. Whenever they bring it up, they do so incorrectly. But if ss is so bad maybe they can tell us about the sorry state of their own church with an infallible (allegedly) pope? Why is there scandal on top of scandal when they are all in union under their human vicar of christ?

I find it kind of funny, that people who Don't believe something, think themselves the most qualified to Define what they Do not believe or understand.

I am also amused, when an other DOES have something they DO believe, that they can NOT explain HOW or WHY they came to their Belief.

The Pope said so...is lame IMO.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Nondenom40]

I find it kind of funny, that people who Don't believe something, think themselves the most qualified to Define what they Do not believe or understand.

I am also amused, when an other DOES have something they DO believe, that they can NOT explain HOW or WHY they came to their Belief.

The Pope said so...is lame IMO.

Glory to God,
Taken

Right. Two standard catholic answers are; The church teaches and it's a mystery. They have to say 'the church teaches' because whatever they are arguing for isn't in the bible. Which pertains to all distinctly rc doctrines and dogmas.

 

[Berserk]

And this post is wrong on many levels. Too many errors to correct. "Scripture only has authority when they are faithful to church doctrine?" This makes little sense. Thats just one.

LOL, in other words, you and David Taylor have nothing meaningful to say, and so, you flee honest dialogue in terror! Clearly, neither of you have read a standard academic book on the formation of the New Testament canon like the works of Robert M. Grant or Hans van Campenhausen.

 

[Nondenom40]

LOL, in other words, you and David Taylor have nothing meaningful to say, and so, you flee honest dialogue in terror! Clearly, neither of you have read a standard academic book on the formation of the New Testament canon like the works of Robert M. Grant or Hans van Campenhausen.

I didn't see anything worth responding to. What you posted is historically inaccurate. And ya I've read books on the Canon. So don't pretend you know anything about people here.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is speaking of knowledge/teaching.

WRONG.
It’s about AUTHORITY.

This is in the context of church discipline and confronting sin.

WRONG.
It is the power to BIND and LOOSE – WHATEVER they saw fit.

This is to the 12 disciples.

WRONG.
This is to the leaders of His Church, which is a SUCCESSIVE office (Acts 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:2, 2 Tim. 1:12-14).

This is not giving them authority to grant forgiveness of sins on their own, rather as working agents of the spirit to give the Gospel. It is God and God alone who forgives.

Absolutely.
HOWEVER – Christ gave them the power to forgive sin and HOLD them BOUND in His name.
Once again – WHATEVER they BIND and WHATEVER they LOOSE . . .

This is SUPREME earthly Authority.