Warnings to the churches about gaining eternal death

[Windmill Charge]

you are elohim, yup
who is "us" though? See how you are forced to testify of yourself, in a manner that Jesus would never, in order to include yourself in that "us?"
and again here, in order to be snatched out you would have first had to be placed in, yeh? And see tares are psychoactive, yeh? One could easily find themselves on tares...ha, except i guess they would not find it, bc tares are psychoactive, so they could easily be found to be on tares, and the finding is not a hard thing to do imo?
you are elohim, so i guess if Jesus is God then you are too, right? I wouldnt put it that way myself, exactly, but then theos is xlated as "God" for us, yeh?
wisdom is hidden from the wise, and we have an infallible method for determining who the wise are, i reckon? Who are the wise of Scripture, iyo?

As always you seek to confuse what is clear.

Jesus and Paul were speaking/writing about Christians.
Saying that they were secure in Gods love.

 

[brakelite]

What you are saying is that our wills are more powerfull than Gods will.
Does sacrifical love give up because the loved doesn't appricate being loved?

You are conflating will with intent. G od may will something, but that doesn't mean He imposes it arbitrarily. And our will is more powerful than God's will in the sense that those who are ultimately lost are lost because they allowed their self will to rule their life, despite God declaring that it is not His will that any should die, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[brakelite]

The alternative, according to your mindset, is that God wills that most will die and never come to repentance.

 

[bbyrd009]

hey all they had to do was follow i guess, yeh?

Jesus and Paul were speaking/writing about Christians.

ah well, so you say, yes, but i srsly doubt it myself. There was a Vineyard Owner with Two Sons? So you can imagine a "we" that fits an agenda if you like, some camp that maybe God respects them more or something? If you want, but imo this will keep one from, um, basically being able to address my post, there? And the pimps and hoes are still beating us into the kingdom regardless, yeh?

 

[bbyrd009]

fermented garlic honey, an answer to prayer ;)

 

[Zachary]

I think that my position on a BAC losing their salvation is, that
John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30 indicate that it isn't possible.
The nature of everlasting life is that it will last for ever;
and these verses promise everlasting life to those who believe.

There are some NT verses which appear to support OSAS,
but there are also many which WARN against OSAS.

And it's the same old story ... to understand what's going on,
one absolutely MUST RECONCILE both sets of these verses!

Otherwise, you have people like yourself who ...
ignore and/or reject one set of these verses!

Which is way beyond ludicrous!
And that's exactly who you are!
I'm trying to shake you up ... So you might wake up!
.

 

[justbyfaith]

There are some NT verses which appear to support OSAS,
but there are also many which WARN against OSAS.

And it's the same old story ... to understand what's going on,
one absolutely MUST RECONCILE both sets of these verses!

Otherwise, you have people like yourself who ...
ignore and/or reject one set of these verses!

Which is way beyond ludicrous!
And that's exactly who you are!
I'm trying to shake you up ... So you might wake up!
.

Herein is the reconciliation of the passages together:

The passages that tell us that we might fall away, are intended to produce the fear of the LORD in us, in order that we might not fall away.

We are to beware the possibility of falling away; and in doing this we are safeguarded against falling away.

The fear of the LORD endures for ever, Psalms 19:9.

And it is this for ever fear that motivates us so that we shall not depart from Christ (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv).

I am perhaps revealing these verses to you in the wrong order.

What should come first is the concept that no one can snatch us out of His hand (John 10:27-30).

To which some may reply, "but you can walk away yourself".

But I would reply to that, that Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv) teaches us that the Lord will place His for ever fear in the hearts of those who are truly born again, so that they shall not depart from Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, @Zachary,

I want to make it clear that the doctrine that I hold to isn't OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). That designation is defined more by the concept of people going forward in church and living like hell afterward, but "cannot lose their salvation".

What I believe is more along the lines of POTS (Perseverance of the Saints).

I define my understanding of this doctrine by the term for ever in 1 John 2:17; but the aspect of holiness is very definitely spoken of in 1 John 3:6 (as you will find the term "abide" to be prevalent in both verses).

 

[Zachary]

Herein is the reconciliation of the passages together:
The passages that tell us that we might fall away, are intended to
produce the fear of the LORD in us, in order that we might not fall away.
We are to beware the possibility of falling away;
and in doing this we are safeguarded against falling away.

Okay, I admire your view of RECONCILING the 2 sets of NT verses!
I have also contemplated the same solution!

Yes, the dire warnings should indeed LEAD most BACs
into obedience through the fear of the Lord.

Man himself can most definitely snatch himself out of God's hands!
Most likely, this is the #1 or #2 reason for all of the dire warnings!

I have asked the question (perhaps only elsewhere):
Do BACs fear the Lord who are simultaneously:
-- believing in OSAS, eternal security
-- involved in habitual (unrepentant) sinning
.

 

[justbyfaith]

I have asked the question (perhaps only elsewhere):
Do BACs fear the Lord who are simultaneously:
-- believing in OSAS, eternal security
-- involved in habitual (unrepentant) sinning

You are speaking of what I consider to be an oxymoron.

People who are simultaneously:
-- believing in OSAS, eternal security
-- involved in habitual (unrepentant) sinning

are not born again Christians.

Man himself can most definitely snatch himself out of God's hands!
Most likely, this is the #1 or #2 reason for all of the dire warnings!

If man snatches himself out of God's hand, then the scripture is broken, that no one can snatch you out of His hand.

Because you yourself are someone.

 

[Zachary]

If man snatches himself out of God's hand,
then the scripture is broken,
that no one can snatch you out of His hand.
Because you yourself are someone.

Okay, then many NT warning verses about
gaining eternal death or losing eternal life are
exaggerations, bluffs, lies even ... because it's difficult for me
to see them all as just keeping BACs on the narrow path to heaven
or getting the straying ones back on the narrow path.

What do you think of the Jewish Christians in Galatians 4
who became estranged from Christ and fell from grace?
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Okay, then many NT warning verses about
gaining eternal death or losing eternal life are
exaggerations, bluffs, lies even ... because it's difficult for me
to see them all as just keeping BACs on the narrow path to heaven
or getting the straying ones back on the narrow path.

What do you think of the Jewish Christians in Galatians 5:4
who became estranged from Christ and fell from grace?
.

They had a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith...mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel...which did not serve to make them of Jesus' sheep. They were in the faith for all practical purposes...they even had faith...but they did not have saving faith.

Saving faith serves to take a person all the way to heaven...they are not only saved from sin in the present moment...they are saved from hell for all of eternity.

 

[Zachary]

The Jewish Christians in Galatians 4 ...
They had a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith...mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel...which did not serve to make them of Jesus' sheep. They were in the faith for all practical purposes...they even had faith...but they did not have saving faith.

So, they were in (or under?) God's grace and were in Christ,
and then became estranged from Christ and fell from grace!
If that is it, why don't you say so?
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Where in Galatians 4 does it mention Jewish Christians who fell from grace?

 

[Zachary]

Where in Galatians 4 does it mention Jewish Christians who fell from grace?

Thou must know that I speakest about some Jewish Christians in Gal 5 ...
Galatians 5:
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,
and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised,
Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised
that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ,
you who attempt to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace.

So, one of the ways to fall from God's grace is to be circumcised,
i.e. be entangled again in the OT Law.
Being circumcised cancels all benefits gained from knowing Christ.

Question:
If one falls from God's grace, has he lost his salvation?

My answer:
Yes, because this agrees with many other NT verses re: losing salvation.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thou must know that I speakest about some Jewish Christians in Gal 5 ...
Galatians 5:
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,
and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised,
Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised
that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ,
you who attempt to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace.

So, one of the ways to fall from God's grace is to be circumcised,
i.e. be entangled again in the OT Law.
Being circumcised cancels all benefits gained from knowing Christ.

Question:
If one falls from God's grace, has he lost his salvation?

My answer:
Yes, because this agrees with many other NT verses re: losing salvation.
.

So, in losing their salvation do they cease to have everlasting life?

Then it was not everlasting, but temporal life.

This appears to be a contradiction that I am unable to reconcile at the moment.

Maybe you have an answer?

 

[justbyfaith]

It may help to know that in the kjv, verse 4 says, "Christ has become of no effect to you" rather than "you have become estranged from Christ."

I'm not sure how that affects our understanding so that we are no longer contradicting John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30; but I do believe that the kjv, when you look at it, has fewer contradictions within its own pages; and that therefore in holding to it we should be able to see a clearer reconciliation between these verses.

 

[farouk]

It may help to know that in the kjv, verse 4 says, "Christ has become of no effect to you" rather than "you have become estranged from Christ."

I'm not sure how that affects our understanding so that we are no longer contradicting John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30; but I do believe that the kjv, when you look at it, has fewer contradictions within its own pages; and that therefore in holding to it we should be able to see a clearer reconciliation between these verses.

I do appreciate and use the King James.

 

[farouk]

So, in losing their salvation do they cease to have everlasting life?

Then it was not everlasting, but temporal life.

This appears to be a contradiction that I am unable to reconcile at the moment.

Maybe you have an answer?

I like to stick to clear promises such as in Romans 8.38-39. :)

 

[justbyfaith]

I like to stick to clear promises such as in Romans 8.38-39. :)

That God loves us does not necessarily translate into us being saved from hell.

So Romans 8:38-39 falls short in being a passage on eternal security.

For that doctrine, I stick to the more concrete passages (such as John 5:25, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30).