Warnings to the churches about gaining eternal death

[justbyfaith]

OK, I apologize for hassling you!
It's been so long, I forget also.
Thou might comment on the verses though.

Do you remember the context of our conversation (what I was saying that made you think of those verses)?

 

[Zachary]

Do you remember the context of our conversation
(what I was saying that made you think of those verses)?

The context was ...
There are NT verses which say BACs can lose their salvation,
i.e. gain eternal death.
You said, "No way. I'm waiting to see the verses!"
And silly me, I provided them for you!
.

 

[justbyfaith]

The context was ...
There are NT verses which say BACs can lose their salvation,
i.e. gain eternal death.
You said, "No way. I'm waiting to see the verses!"
And silly me, I provided them for you!
.

I don't recall that...are you sure that it was me?

 

[justbyfaith]

I think that my position on a BAC losing their salvation is, that John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30 indicate that it isn't possible.

The nature of everlasting life is that it will last for ever; and these verses promise everlasting life to those who believe.

Such a life will never come to an end; and if salvation were to be lost, the life that was gained by faith would not have been everlasting; it would have been only temporal.

That being said, I do believe that a person can have genuine faith in Christ and yet fall away later. In Luke 8:13, it is clear that the person had faith but in time of temptation or trouble fell away.

Nevertheless, in John 6:47, it should also be clear that the person who believes on Christ has everlasting life.

So either they fell away and continued to have everlasting life or else there is a distinction to be made between the kinds of faith spoken of in Luke 8:13 vs. what is spoken of in John 6:47 and John 10:28...they shall "never perish" so either they continue to have everlasting life after falling away or else there are two different kinds of faith being spoken of here.

I have contended (and will contend) that in Luke 8:13 the faith being spoken of is a lukewarm, nominal, and/or shallow faith...it is mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel that has no effect on the life of the believer...it does not result in righteousness.

The faith being spoken of in John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30, however, I would have to identify it as a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and the enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13).

The difference between the two, as we see them in believers today, is the average churchgoer as opposed to the person who desires to serve in ministry in any way, shape, or form.

One is a pew-sitter/potato, they trust that because they are saved by grace through faith, that there is no need to be of service to the church or to people in general; they rest on their laurels.

The other kind knows he is saved by grace through faith; but because of that, he or she is head-over-heels in love with Jesus Christ. They have received His love; and they live according to it. And this results in an increase in the labour that they do for souls, in wanting to win them to Jesus. It is a work of faith and a labour of love. The love of the Lord has been shed abroad in their hearts via the Holy Ghost who is given unto them.

These will continue to serve the Lord to the end of their days; for they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints (1 Corinthians 16:15 (kjv))

 

[justbyfaith]

"… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness … so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. For when you were slaves of sin … the end of those things is (eternal) death. … For the wages of sin is (eternal) death …" (Romans 6:16-23)

"For those who LIVE according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who LIVE according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally-minded is (eternal) death, but to be spiritually-minded is (eternal) life and peace.” (Romans 8:5-6)

"For IF you live according to the flesh you will die (eternal death); but IF by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (eternal life).” (Romans 8:13)

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption (eternal death), but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.” (Galatians 6:7-8)

“But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into may foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil … Let them (rich Christians) do good, that they may be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.” (1 Timothy 6:9-19)

“ ‘Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.” (Hebrews 10:36-39)

“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of (eternal) life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him … when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown, brings forth (eternal) death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.” (James 1:12-15)

IMO, this is enough to swallow in one sitting ... gluttony is a sin, remember!

I would say to these scriptures, simply, that those who have a faith that is identified as that which might endure to the end, that these are the people who are sealed by the Holy Spirit and are motivated by Him in every behaviour; and therefore the behaviours that would produce spiritual death are simply not practiced by them.

See Ezekiel 36:27. God causes the believer to walk in His statutes and in His judgments. Philippians 2:12-13, God works in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure.

The person who lives and believes in Jesus shall never die (John 11:26-27). If you compare this to James 1:15, you will see that the one who is truly alive and believing in Jesus is a person who does not allow sin to ever become fully-grown in him so that it might produce spiritual death.

In 1 John 3:6, as compared to 1 John 2:17, we find that the one who abides in Christ sinneth not; and that the one who does the will of God shall abide for ever. This substantiates Hebrews 10:14, that He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified through the offering of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Windmill Charge]

many will be deceived

i'm thinkin those who misquote Scripture among them wadr

Is Jesus's actions determined by his will and plan or by what people miss believe?
One can think one can loose ones salvation the reality is it is Jesus who holds onto ones faith and he will not let one go.

 

[bbyrd009]

Is Jesus's actions determined by his will and plan or by what people miss believe?

Jesus' actions? An unusual phraseology, hmm. Imo Jesus is finished with His actions, so i dunno how to reply, sorry. You are on one side of Meet John Doe and i am on the other, so all that's coming to me are phrases that will prolly seem non seqitur to you, you will do even greater things, I said 'you are elohim,' stuff like that. To reply to the Q literally i would have to say "yes," as "Jesus' actions" in our walk are determined by, well, not His will of course but the Father's, yeh? or by what ppl mis-believe, i guess.

But see even at "believe," "mis-believe," imo we have another disconnect, as i doubt most "believers" even have any beliefs, except possibly the brand new seekers, who Scripture tells us are shortly turned into twice the sons of hell, although i have not discovered where you personally come down on the i would say bell-curve but i dont see a curve there, either, at least so far.

Could you state one of your beliefs, maybe we could see? Bc i am seeking for a believer who has any beliefs right now, havent run across one yet!

One can think one can loose ones salvation the reality is it is Jesus who holds onto ones faith and he will not let one go

if one ever actually confesses rather than just professes Christ, i am inclined to agree, but we are told many times that few there are who find it yeh? So, i dunno if my standards for this "salvation" you speak of are just different?--i can say mine have radically changed in 40+ years--or what, but i guess we have a different definition for that too prolly?

Are you still comfortable singing When We All Get to Heaven?
Or the...several songs that suggest Praise for Jesus? ty

 

[brakelite]

Either the bible is right or the bible is wrong and human will is actually God as it is the strongest force in creation.

It isn't a battle between our will and God's will. It isn't a matter of power and might. Jesus acquiesced to His Father's will, because that is what love does. Is the love that the Father has for man different than the love Jesus has for the Father? Less? More? The same? Does the Father therefore acquiesce to our wills if by determined self will we continue in our rebelliousness despite His pleadings to repent?

 

[bbyrd009]

Either the bible is right or the bible is wrong and human will is actually God as it is the strongest force in creation.

you are elohim, yup

So Paul is wrong when he says ' nothing in All creation can separete us from the love of God.

who is "us" though? See how you are forced to testify of yourself, in a manner that Jesus would never, in order to include yourself in that "us?"

Jesus is wrong when he says no one can snatch you out of my hand.

and again here, in order to be snatched out you would have first had to be placed in, yeh? And see tares are psychoactive, yeh? One could easily find themselves on tares...ha, except i guess they would not find it, bc tares are psychoactive, so they could easily be found to be on tares, and the finding is not a hard thing to do imo?

As my will is stronger than both God and Jesus who then is God?

you are elohim, so i guess if Jesus is God then you are too, right? I wouldnt put it that way myself, exactly, but then theos is xlated as "God" for us, yeh?

Either the bible is right or the bible is wrong and human will is actually God as it is the strongest force in creation.

wisdom is hidden from the wise, and we have an infallible method for determining who the wise are, i reckon? Who are the wise of Scripture, iyo?

 

[bbyrd009]

It isn't a battle between our will and God's will. It isn't a matter of power and might. Jesus acquiesced to His Father's will, because that is what love does. Is the love that the Father has for man different than the love Jesus has for the Father? Less? More? The same? Does the Father therefore acquiesce to our wills if by determined self will we continue in our rebelliousness despite His pleadings to repent?

dont like the first sentence, gave you a like for the point tho :)

 

[brakelite]

dont like the first sentence, gave you a like for the point tho :)

Fair enough on that first sentence. Could have thought that through some more. Perhaps the real battle is within ourselves and our willingness to turn our self will over to God.

 

[brakelite]

If that makes any sense.

 

[Zachary]

I don't recall that...are you sure that it was me?

Absolutely positivo!
.

 

[Zachary]

If we, as disciples of Christ, are to be a blessing to all of the people of the earth, then we have to love everybody as Christ does.
If we limit our love, particularly to other believers,
then we are not a follower of Christ.

Of course you are aware of all the uncomplimentary
and condemning names that Jesus called the Pharisees!
And the overturning of their tables in the sanctuary!
It's called righteous anger.
Is this loving everybody as Christ did?
.

 

[Zachary]

The nature of everlasting life is that it will last for ever; and these verses promise everlasting life to those who believe.

This is your problem ... you have NO idea what is True Saving Belief-Faith!

And I see now why you were NOT interested in reading this OP.

And that's why I said to you, "It's time to get with the program!"
God's program, not Satan's.
.

 

[Jay Ross]

Okay, was Jesus loving non-believers when He called them all kinds of VERY
uncomplimentary names, overturned all of their tables in the house of God, etc.?

​

Of course you are aware of all the uncomplimentary
and condemning names that Jesus called the Pharisees!
And the overturning of their tables in the sanctuary!
It's called righteous anger.
Is this loving everybody as Christ did?
.

This is the second time that you have commented on my previous post, which by the way, should be read and understood in the context of the thread.

It seems that you are wanting to provoke a response/fight from me by your commenting on my post a second time.

God clearly teaches that if a righteous person sins against Him and does not repent of their sin that they will become a candidate for the second death at the time of judgement. Ezekiel_18, 33. This is a warning that should be given to all.

We can believe, but if we turn away from God we stop believing and cause the Holy Spirit to grieve and the Holy Spirit cannot forgive us of our trespasses. We have to turn back to Jesus/God to repent once more of our idolatrous behaviour.

But @justbyfaith is also right, that if we continue to press into our belief focused on God/Jesus then we will not die the second death.

Now if we only love believers and exclude all others, which was the point that I was making, then, do we have a heart after God's heart for all of mankind? Do we really believe in God and His purposes for all of mankind? Or do we replace God with "us" as our "god" and God becomes our puppet to do what we want Him to do and perform, including saving us from the second death?

Shalom

 

[justbyfaith]

This is your problem ... you have NO idea what is True Saving Belief-Faith!

Evidently you didn't read the whole of the post in question....because in it I have defined saving faith...and I don't think that I have given an improper definition.

Warnings to the churches about gaining eternal death

 

[Nancy]

Perhaps, if we are to be true disciples of Christ, then we are to love everybody and not just other believers.

If we, as disciples of Christ, are to be a blessing to all of the people of the earth, then we have to love everybody as Christ does.

If we limit our love, particularly to other believers, then we are not a follower of Christ.

Shalom

Hi Jay,
Just a couple scriptures here:

"Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." Galatians 6:10

"These things I command you, so that you will love one another" John 15:17

"Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples "(John 13:35).

There are many more but, I think we are to put other believers before the "world" or, unbelievers. Just my understanding :)

 

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,
Just a couple scriptures here:

"Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." Galatians 6:10

"These things I command you, so that you will love one another" John 15:17

"Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples "(John 13:35).

There are many more but, I think we are to put other believers before the "world" or, unbelievers. Just my understanding :)

I am sure, that there are other scripture which exhort us to love our neighbour. There is a parable about that topic to be sure to be sure.

Shalom

 

[Windmill Charge]

It isn't a battle between our will and God's will. It isn't a matter of power and might. Jesus acquiesced to His Father's will, because that is what love does. Is the love that the Father has for man different than the love Jesus has for the Father? Less? More? The same? Does the Father therefore acquiesce to our wills if by determined self will we continue in our rebelliousness despite His pleadings to repent?

What you are saying is that our wills are more powerfull than Gods will.
Does sacrifical love give up because the loved doesn't appricate being loved?