Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Keraz]

Well it sure wasn't two literal days after Yeshua returned to His place. So it obviously has a longer period in view. And follow the Torah requirement yet again, Psalms and 2 Peter both support the concept that the two day represent 2000 years. With them being restored to live in His sight on the 3rd day or the millennial reign of Yeshua. So Hosea 6 also does not support your view.

That Hosea 6:2 does mean days to God in heaven and 2000 years to us on earth, is reiterated by Jesus in Luke 13:32 and proved by the fact of nearly 2000 years having passed since Jesus' first Advent. Obviously the 'third day' in both prophesies refers to the Millennium, where we will live under the reign of King Jesus.
This means that we are right on the edge of all the things prophesied to happen before Jesus does Return to take up His Millennium reign.

Which is why I spend so much time and effort to warn people of what the Bible prophets have told us about God's plans for His people during this forthcoming difficult time of dramatic change. The message is not one of trouble and hardship, but of how the Lord will protect and bless His own people, those who stand firm in their Christian faith, trusting the Lord to save and protect us. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
We all have tasks to do for the Lord, according to our abilities now, and rather than escaping from our duties, we must continue until the end of the Church age. Matthew 28:19-20

 

[Copperhead]

I can appreciate your zeal in wanting to warn other of what is coming. But for me, I don't really focus on some idea of dealing with the final period coming upon the earth since I believe the redeemed are removed from it before it starts and there is no way to prepare for what it coming anyway. Since it is the worse time that ever has been or ever shall be, there is not reference point on how to prepare for that.

But I am more convinced than ever that the redeemed are removed prior to this starting. Not holed up somewhere and protected, but totally removed. And I find more support for that almost every day in the OT even though the primary source has been the NT for many.

The latest being a conjunction of Daniel 8 and Isaiah 26. This final world ruler, according to Gabriel to Daniel, will not come on the scene until the final period of the indignation or wrath. So the wrath has to be going on before he is revealed. And Isaiah wrote that the righteous dead and living are removed to their rooms (see John 14 also) prior to the indignation or wrath. The root Hebrew word in both Daniel and Isaiah is the same... za'am... which is the word for wrath as well as indignation.

It gets clearer every day that the pre-trib removal of the righteous is the likely scenario.

I realize that some like to use the argument that there is no one verse that says the redeemed are raptured away. Well, there is no one verse that outright describes the trinity and a host of other valid theologic concepts either. Many concepts are developed by comparing multiple scripture passages. Actually, there is a beauty in that reveals the fingerprint of the Holy Spirit on the text.

 

[Davy]

Except Yeshua made it clear that both Ephraim (Israel) and Judah would have to acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and reference Psalms 118... Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.... before He would return. Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:39.

If things are as you suggest, then when did the believers (who make up literal, physical Israel as you contend) reject Yeshua, before He returned to His place after being here on earth, so that they have to then acknowledge that offense before He will return? Kind of opens a flaw in your logic. It certainly pokes a hole in the Two House / Ephraimite theory.

Just as Judah was the largest of the southern tribes therefore they cumulatively were called Judah, Ephraim was the largest of the northern tribes and many times the northern kingdom was referenced as Ephraim.....

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Following basic syntax and grammatical principles, "them / they" is a reference to both houses by Hosea. The "offense" was before He returned to His place. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah was rejected by both Ephraim (Israel) and Judah, therefore both Ephraim and Judah (they) collectively must acknowledge that offense before He will return.

And if those of Ephraim (Israel) were not there along side those of Judah but instead playing off in Europe or other regions, then how is it that Yeshua included them as committing the offense? How could Ephraim reject Yeshua unless they were where Yeshua was rejected and participated in that rejection? It supports 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, etc that all the tribes had commingled prior to, during, and after the Babylonian Exile.

Zion (Jerusalem) collectively represents all of the Hebrew people in many passages of scripture. Jerusalem was not the only place that prophets and those sent were killed.....

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV Strong's) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

So it would seem that both houses of Jacob are in the same boat.

The "church" wasn't even around to reject Yeshua before He returned to His place. The entity we know as the "church of Yeshua" did not start till Shavuot after He had already returned to His place. So there is no way that on a physical level the redeemed make up literal physical Israel. Spiritually, Yes. Physically, no.

You're not staying with Scripture enough there. Per the Bible history of God having scattered the ten tribes under Ephraim first, the majority of Israel (10 tribes under Ephraim) were not even present in Judea when Jesus was rejected by the Jews.

And by Apostle Paul quoting from Hosea 1 in Romans 9 to Roman Gentile Christians, he revealed the scattered tribes being among the Gentiles there, and many of them along with Gentiles accepting Christ Jesus.

 

[Copperhead]

You're not staying with Scripture enough there. Per the Bible history of God having scattered the ten tribes under Ephraim first, the majority of Israel (10 tribes under Ephraim) were not even present in Judea when Jesus was rejected by the Jews.

I contend you are not staying with scripture enough. 2 Chronicles has several passages where many of the northern tribes migrated southward and joined with the southern tribes. One of those was over 100 years AFTER the Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom. Ezra calls his returning remnant Jews 9 times and all Israel 40 times. Nehemiah calls his returning remnant Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

In these passages, a minimum of 9 of the 12 tribes are mentioned specifically by name. And in the NT, at least 4 of the tribes are present and mentioned.

This whole idea of lost tribes, the Two House theory, the Ephraimite theory and such is totally out of line with scripture. It is based on secular fallacies and Alice in Wonderland theology.

 

[Keraz]

I can appreciate your zeal in wanting to warn other of what is coming. But for me, I don't really focus on some idea of dealing with the final period coming upon the earth since I believe the redeemed are removed from it before it starts and there is no way to prepare for what it coming anyway. Since it is the worse time that ever has been or ever shall be, there is not reference point on how to prepare for that.

The many prophesies that comprehensively prophesy the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, that will come upon everyone, the whole world over, inform us of what it is that God will use to literally fulfil it all. Knowing this, allows us to make some preparations for shelter from the heat; seven times ambient temperature and from the earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. For just the single day, so it will be quite survivable.

But I am more convinced than ever that the redeemed are removed prior to this starting. Not holed up somewhere and protected, but totally removed. And I find more support for that almost every day in the OT even though the primary source has been the NT for many.

Amazing that you read your Bible, just as I do, yet we see scripture quite differently. I remain convinced of my beliefs and you in yours.
This is for sure: not long now and we will know the truths of God plans for His people. Aren't we lucky and blessed to be alive at this time?

Isaiah 26:20-21 Go My People, enter your rooms and shut the door behind you....until the Lord's wrath has passed. He is coming to punish the earth and many will be slain by Him. Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17
Absolutely a reference to the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, that everyone will experience. Zephaniah 3:8 I have taken the advice and prepared a reefer container to take shelter in.
Your John 14:1-2 prophecy is clearly about the New Jerusalem that will come to the earth after the Millennium.

 

[Keraz]

This whole idea of lost tribes, the Two House theory, the Ephraimite theory and such is totally out of line with scripture. It is based on secular fallacies and Alice in Wonderland theology.

The two Houses - Israel and Judah, with each having separate destinies, is based on sound Bible teaching.
In over 160 prophecies, we are told of God's plans for them, as separate identities.

That they have not yet rejoined is clear from Ezekiel 37, where the spiritual Blessings remain unfulfilled.

 

[Copperhead]

The many prophesies that comprehensively prophesy the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, that will come upon everyone, the whole world over, inform us of what it is that God will use to literally fulfil it all. Knowing this, allows us to make some preparations for shelter from the heat; seven times ambient temperature and from the earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. For just the single day, so it will be quite survivable.

Amazing that you read your Bible, just as I do, yet we see scripture quite differently. I remain convinced of my beliefs and you in yours.
This is for sure: not long now and we will know the truths of God plans for His people. Aren't we lucky and blessed to be alive at this time?

Isaiah 26:20-21 Go My People, enter your rooms and shut the door behind you....until the Lord's wrath has passed. He is coming to punish the earth and many will be slain by Him. Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17
Absolutely a reference to the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, that everyone will experience. Zephaniah 3:8 I have taken the advice and prepared a reefer container to take shelter in.
Your John 14:1-2 prophecy is clearly about the New Jerusalem that will come to the earth after the Millennium.

You must have a secular job of selling prepper stuff to want to hold so tight to a “we all have to go thru it” position.

You are free to go thru that period. Many of us won’t and be watching from the mezzanine.

 

[Keraz]

You must have a secular job of selling prepper stuff to want to hold so tight to a “we all have to go thru it” position.

What I sell for free, is the truth of the Prophetic Word. Believe it of remain in the dark about what will happen.
Prepping is a con, those who stockpile food, weapons, etc, have no clue of how dramatic the Sixth Seal disaster will be and how changed the world will be after it.

You are free to go thru that period. Many of us won’t and be watching from the mezzanine.

I look forward to 'going thru that period', as it will be amazing for every faithful Christian, as the Lord protects and blesses His own.
No one gets to choose their fate, it is the Lord who chooses them, 1 Peter 2:9-10 and we must prove our faith by trusting in His saving power.

Rapture believers do trust in God; for the wrong outcome, but it isn't a Salvation issue, only that they won't be ready for what actually will happen and may renounce God for not doing what they expected. So, on the forthcoming Day of worldwide disaster, just remember to stand firm in your faith and to call upon the Name of the Lord. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
See you in the holy Land. Zechariah 3:10

 

[Copperhead]

I look forward to 'going thru that period', as it will be amazing for every faithful Christian,

And that is telling right there. You are looking forward to the brethren going thru that time? You are in worse shape than even I thought. Now if you look forward to going thru it, feel free to head out on your own. Many of us will not follow your lead.

But given that Paul made it clear the departure and gathering to the Lord will precede the "day of the Lord" and the revealing of the man of sin / false messiah / antichrist, I am comfortable with trusting the Lord that He will honor that and remove the redeemed . Especially when it is supported in Isaiah and other passages. And the comports with the requirement of the Torah and the example by the Bereans.

 

[Copperhead]

they won't be ready for what actually will happen and may renounce God for not doing what they expected.

How so? I see it just like Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah viewed things.....

Daniel 3:17-18 (NKJV) If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. 18 But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.”

The problem revolves around how one views what the tribulation period is all about. And when one gets a handle on that, then the removal before hand idea doesn't seem so far fetched. The concept only seems spurious if one views that period from the perspective of human history alone. The whole thing has been about a war between Yeshua and Satan, with mankind being the prize. Those that Yeshua has already purchased, He is not going to risk losing one too Satan. That is one of His main claims.... that all those the Father gives Him, He doesn't lose one. And the battle is between Him and Satan. We get to watch from the bleachers. It isn't our fight.

 

[Keraz]

And that is telling right there. You are looking forward to the brethren going thru that time? You are in worse shape than even I thought. Now if you look forward to going thru it, feel free to head out on your own. Many of us will not follow your lead.

I and the vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language, will gather in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed the entire ME area. John sees us there in Revelation 7:9 We will live in all of the holy Land in peace and prosperity. When the Anti- Christ does take control of all the world, the Lord's faithful Christian people will be taken to a place of safety for that 1260 day period. When Jesus Returns; His angels will gather us to him, where we will be His priests and co-rulers. An incredible and wonderful future! Many scriptures support this scenario.

What you will be doing, is up to you and your faith in the protecting power of the Lord. I would think you will get tired of holding up your arms after a day or so.

But given that Paul made it clear the departure and gathering to the Lord will precede the "day of the Lord" and the revealing of the man of sin

It is a wrong and quite false way to interpret the word Paul uses in 2 Thess 2:3, as 'departure and gathering'.
Let no one deceive you in any way. That Day, [the Return of Jesus] cannot come before the final rebellion against God…… REBible
Other trans say; falling away....
So your idea that it means a 'rapture to heaven', is just a wrong interpretation and made only to fit in that false theory.

How so? I see it just like Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah viewed things.....

Those three men in the furnace are our example of how God can and will protect His own during the terrible Day of His fiery wrath. Isaiah 43:2

The problem revolves around how one views what the tribulation period is all about

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, is entirely against the ungodly peoples, those who took the mark of the beast. Revelation 9:20-21 and 16:11 make it clear that those punishments are for the wicked, not for the faithful Christians.

It isn't our fight.

Maybe, but doing God's will on earth, is our task and our destiny.
Watching from the bleachers? You have very fanciful notions!

I do want you to know that I appreciate these posts. You keep to your firmly held beliefs, despite a serious lack of evidence for them.
Other people here can read our posts and decide for themselves what is correct.

 

[Copperhead]

It is a wrong and quite false way to interpret the word Paul uses in 2 Thess 2:3, as 'departure and gathering'.

No, it is reading the text as it is written. The context of the passage is laid out in verse one by Paul......

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him

The Thessalonians had been persuaded by some word or fake letter that they were in the day of the Lord. If they had been taught they would go thru the day of the Lord, then why would they be upset?

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (1599 Geneva Bible) That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.

Paul then reminded them that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the departure happens, and after that, the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

And the Geneva Bible is not the only one to say "departing". Every English prior to the KJV also used departing, departure, etc. And even some newer translations today use it. The Hebrew Names Bible is one. The Wuest Expanded Translation is another.

And many Greek scholars of the last two centuries also concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2 has simply "departure" as its meaning. Anything else is adding to the text. And given the context is our gathering to the Lord from verse one, then departure as in removal is the only interpretation that maintains grammatical integrity.

 

[Keraz]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him

This is the gathering as described in Matthew 24:31 and in 1 Thess 4:17, that happens at the Return, a transportation form where His faithful people are on earth, to where Jesus is.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

'departing' used in that context is not 'physical removal', but spiritual falling away from the faith. As verse 2-3 says: Do not become confused and think Jesus has Returned...… That won't happen until after the Anti-Christ is revealed and most of the world will rebel against God. Paraphrased

Hanging a whole theory; the 'rapture to heaven', on a special interpretation of this prophecy, is on a very thin thread indeed!

 

[Copperhead]

'departing' used in that context is not 'physical removal', but spiritual falling away from the faith.

But every English translation prior to the KJV, the Latin Vulgate (the standard bible of the church for 1200 years) and a host of Greek scholars disagree with you on this. There are a handful of newer translations that also disagree with you. I realize that some venerate James Strong's concordance as the grand poobah of Greek definitions, but on this one he got it wrong.

The context is established in verse 1.... our gathering to Him. The only way to maintain sound grammatical construct is to use departing for apostasia as opposed to falling away. And the only way that apostasia can mean falling away or departing from the faith is if that was in the sentence. It is not. Simply Departing. And that tied into the context of the passage it can only mean the departing that is the gathering to the Lord.

Again, in verse 2, the Thessalonians had become unnerved thinking the Day fo the Lord was upon them. Someone had started a rumor or forged a letter to them stating that. If they had been taught by Paul that they were to go into the Day of the Lord, they wouldn't have been so bent out of shape over the issue. In verse 3, Paul makes it clear "that day" will not come till the departure takes place and then the man of sin is revealed.

And there is ample support for the idea that the righteous are removed prior to the man of sin / lawless one / antichrist is revealed in the OT. Supporting the depart or gathering of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and meeting the evidentiary requirement of the Torah.

 

[Keraz]

But every English translation prior to the KJV, the Latin Vulgate (the standard bible of the church for 1200 years) and a host of Greek scholars disagree with you on this. There are a handful of newer translations that also disagree with you. I realize that some venerate James Strong's concordance as the grand poobah of Greek definitions, but on this one he got it wrong.

Sorry, I do not buy the opinions of the ECF's. They were not Apostles and their writings do not qualify as scripture. The fact is that some of them had very weird ideas.
Strongs G646; apsotasia - a falling away from the truth.
I want to see a genuine scholarly dissertation on this. Your opinion that Strongs is wrong, is far from adequate.

And there is ample support for the idea that the righteous are removed prior to the man of sin / lawless one / antichrist is revealed in the OT.

Again; I know my Bible very well and I just don't see any support for such a thing. What is prophesied, is how we must stand firm thru all that must happen and how the Lord will protect His own. Zechariah 9:16

 

[Copperhead]

I want to see a genuine scholarly dissertation on this. Your opinion that Strongs is wrong, is far from adequate.

There is a lot out there. I did a search some time ago on just "apostasia departure" just to see how widespread the concept was and tons of articles popped up. Many of them from theology professors. I found scholars from the UK and S. Africa also that support it. And that was only on the first two pages of hits.

If you actually were searching for scholarly work on this you would have found it. it is out there in spades. Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary has written and talked quite a bit on just this single issue. Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961) was a very well known Greek scholar and head of Greek studies at Moody Bible Institute wrote a major thesis paper on this also. Both these guys support the contention that apostasia is simply departure and not falling away. And that tied into the context of verse one... our gathering to Him... means that the departure of the righteous is in view. I already had books from those two. You can find lectures posted on youtube by others on this topic from Dr. Andy Woods.

Again; I know my Bible very well and I just don't see any support for such a thing.

The same problem here. If you really were searching you would have found it. I and others have pointed it out before. It is there. And one doesn't have to twist or pull at anything. It follows the standard principle of hermeneutics.... when the plain sense makes sense, then seek no other sense, lest you end up with nonsense.

 

[Davy]

I contend you are not staying with scripture enough. 2 Chronicles has several passages where many of the northern tribes migrated southward and joined with the southern tribes. One of those was over 100 years AFTER the Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom. Ezra calls his returning remnant Jews 9 times and all Israel 40 times. Nehemiah calls his returning remnant Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times.

In these passages, a minimum of 9 of the 12 tribes are mentioned specifically by name. And in the NT, at least 4 of the tribes are present and mentioned.

This whole idea of lost tribes, the Two House theory, the Ephraimite theory and such is totally out of line with scripture. It is based on secular fallacies and Alice in Wonderland theology.

The simple Bible historical fact in 1 Kings 11 forward to 2 Kings 17, is that God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. The "kingdom of Israel" was the northern kingdom of ten tribes under king Jeroboam of Ephraim, its capitol at Samaria, and they held war against the southern "kingdom of Judah". Even though a small remnant of the ten tribes refused Jeroboam's gold idol calf worship in the north and trekked south to join with Judah, that did NOT... end the northern kingdom of ten tribes where the MAJORITY of Israelites still were.

You are trying to do what the unbelieving Jews try to do with claiming the ten tribes were either lost, or were eventually all joined with Judah in the southern kingdom. Neither one of those ideas are Biblical.

The ten tribes are still scattered out of the holy lands to this day, and will not return until Christ's 2nd coming. And even then it will only be those of them that are in Christ Jesus that will return. This same thing will also happen with the believers of the house of Judah that is scattered also.

 

[Enoch111]

The simple Bible historical fact in 1 Kings 11 forward to 2 Kings 17, is that God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms.

It is not God who split up Israel, but evil men.

1. God had not planned for Israel to have any human kings. But He allowed it and also warned of the consequences.

2. God does not cause evil selfish men to do evil deeds. They all made their own evil choices.

3. God will make Israel one united, redeemed, and restored kingdom after the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Davy]

It is not God who split up Israel, but evil men.

1. God had not planned for Israel to have any human kings. But He allowed it and also warned of the consequences.

2. God does not cause evil selfish men to do evil deeds. They all made their own evil choices.

3. God will make Israel one united, redeemed, and restored kingdom after the Second Coming of Christ.

No, it was our Heavenly Father Himself that split old Israel. But yes He did it because of what Solomon had done in disobeying Him.

In the restoration, that is about ONLY those of the seed of Israel joined to Christ Jesus along with believing Gentiles. There will be no Salvation just because one is born of the seed of Israel. If you had understood the New Testament you should have known that.

 

[Copperhead]

The simple Bible historical fact in 1 Kings 11 forward to 2 Kings 17, is that God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. The "kingdom of Israel" was the northern kingdom of ten tribes under king Jeroboam of Ephraim, its capitol at Samaria, and they held war against the southern "kingdom of Judah". Even though a small remnant of the ten tribes refused Jeroboam's gold idol calf worship in the north and trekked south to join with Judah, that did NOT... end the northern kingdom of ten tribes where the MAJORITY of Israelites still were.

You are trying to do what the unbelieving Jews try to do with claiming the ten tribes were either lost, or were eventually all joined with Judah in the southern kingdom. Neither one of those ideas are Biblical.

The ten tribes are still scattered out of the holy lands to this day, and will not return until Christ's 2nd coming. And even then it will only be those of them that are in Christ Jesus that will return. This same thing will also happen with the believers of the house of Judah that is scattered also.

I guess Ezra was just got ahold of some dessert weed to call the group he brought back from Babylon Jews 9 times and all Israel 40 times. And Nehemiah got into the same stuff to call his group Jews 11 times and all Israel 22 times. Either that or they were lying.

No, they were level headed. They were the reporters on the scene. Their testimony on the matter would pass legal muster. It is primary source material and also is scripture canon. So they outweigh your thoughts on the matter,

And I guess Anna in the book of Luke was just a figment of someone's imagination. She was of Asher, one of the northern tribes. Imagine.... virtually 700 years after the Assyrian conquest and 500 years after Babylon and she still knew the tribe she was from. And was living in the levant and even serving in the temple! Unbelievable!

Paul called himself a Hebrew, a Jew, a Benjamite, and an Israelite. Poor confused Paul from Tarsus, Cilicia (Turkey).