Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

[Keraz]

One does have to wonder though, how does one encourage the brethren by telling them they are in store for the worse period that has been or ever will be and it is by the very hand of the one who redeemed them? I am not convinced this is what Paul was referring to when he wrote “comfort one another with these words”.

THIS is where you totally fail to understand what God has planned for His people in the last days.
He promises to protect, save and forgive His people. They will live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land and when the Anti-Christ does conquer them, all who remained faithful will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that 1260 day period. Revelation 12:14
Revelation 12:17 proves that it will be the faithful Christians who the AC conquered, as per Daniel 7:23, Rev 13:7 and Zephaniah 14:1-2 They are NOT and never will be in heaven. Eventually God comes to dwell with mankind, Rev 21:1-7, so heaven will be on earth, as it was in Adams time.

 

[Copperhead]

THIS is where you totally fail to understand what God has planned for His people in the last days.

Nope. I just don't agree with your analysis. You don't have enough pay grade to determine that I have failed at anything. You are mortal just like I am. You got into the family the same way I did, and it was not based on anything we know or did. And like Paul stated, we all see through a mirror dimly. Only when we are face to face with Yeshua will we see everything clearly.

I do also find it very curious how in recent years the pre-trib concept has come under increased attack from all sides and folks ridiculed and made to look like buffoons and even worse. From some in the church who think it is ok to ridicule and demean the brethren, some in the New Age Occult sector who go to great lengths to explain away a sudden disappearance of people as being UFO aliens taking them off the planet, and now from groups like Amazon Prime with their show "Good Omens" who just stick with making pre-trib folks look like morons. When I look at how the world is cascading downward it would make sense that certain elements of theology would take a greater hit. I don't see near the animosity from various circles toward the Post-Trip or Amillennial folks. But I see it coming from all side toward pre-trib that we have foolish ideas, are deluded, have sinister motivations, etc, etc.

Rather makes me think even more that I might just be on the right track. Thanks guys! Shakespeare was closer to the truth than I realized! Me thinks ye doest protest too much.

 

[Enoch111]

But I see it coming from all side toward pre-trib that we have foolish ideas, are deluded, have sinister motivations, etc, etc.

Truth will always be under more severe attack than fiction. I agree that the anti-pre-trib rapture propaganda has become stronger and stronger in recent years.

 

[Keraz]

Nope. I just don't agree with your analysis. You don't have enough pay grade to determine that I have failed at anything. You are mortal just like I am. You got into the family the same way I did, and it was not based on anything we know or did

Nope. A very inadequate response, the say the least!
However, I am well aware that you just do not have any scripture to prove the rapture theory. As the name of this thread confirms.

You have failed to properly discern the prophesies. God's holy people, every faithful Christian; are in the holy Land, right up to the time the Anti-Christ conquers them. Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:23, Revelation 13:7. This is real proof, Copperhead and Enoch111, genuine scriptural truths, that you must have read, but have failed to comprehend.
We who oppose the 'rapture to heaven' theory do not ridicule or denigrate those who believe that idea, but we do have to be a little forceful in order for you to take at least some notice. Most often, we are simply ignored or treated like party poopers and it is us who get abused; told if that is what we want, then the Great Tribulation will be our lot. As if God has given us the choice!
If you can't understand how unscriptural and frankly incredible the 'rapture' theory is, then may God help you; I have done my best. Ezekiel 3:21

 

[Davy]

What good it is to quote men whose predictions of the future arrival of the Antichrist were made prior to 538 A.D., when the papal Antichrist arose? Of course they will all have said the Antichrist is future. None of them believed the Antichrist had yet arrived.

You have weaved yourself a trap you cannot get out of it.

If the pope were the Antichrist, then Christ's 2nd coming should have happened in their generation, because that is what timing God's Word gives for the appearance of the Antichrist that the Apostles warned of. That's why the early Church fathers explained about Christ's coming to defeat the Antichrist at the end of this world, because that is what Scripture reveals.

 

[Copperhead]

However, I am well aware that you just do not have any scripture to prove the rapture theory. As the name of this thread confirms.

Scripture from both OT and NT has been presented numerous times in the past posts. No need to repeat it now as it will be the same result with you. If I actually thought you were interested in serious dialogue, I might present it again. But based on many threads and many postings, I am not convinced you are interested in serious dialogue so I am not going to take the time.

And just because in your mind you think there is no scripture to support the concept does not make it so. You are not the final arbiter of what is truth or scripture exegesis as much as you like to try to convince everyone that you are. You have exhibited that the primary interest you have in the issue is an opportunity to tear down the idea and others.

Since eschatology is not a condition of salvation, then why is the pre-trib concept such a threat to you that you feel the need to attack it and those who believe it, right alongside secular writers, using the same techniques as they do? Be careful in your zeal to be right that you don't find yourself fighting against God.

But discussions like this do evidence one thing.... the time is drawing to a close. The train is coming around the bend and it won't be long now. Anyone, on any side of this issue, should evaluate if they are in a relationship with the King and are looking forward to His appearing. A crown of righteousness awaits those who do, as Paul stated. The King is coming and there is still time to place one's trust in Him before it is too late. Amen! Come quickly Yeshua and gather your people to yourself!

 

[Keraz]

Come quickly Yeshua and gather your people to yourself!

Into all of the holy Land, as You have told us by Your prophets. Ezekiel 34:1-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Jay Ross]

Into all of the holy Land, as You have told us by Your prophets. Ezekiel 34:1-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

Really, are you sure of your idolatrous worship of the "Promised Land," which God told Isaac was promised to confirm God's covenantal promises to Abraham when Abraham questioned God as to how he would now that he would receive the whole earth as his inheritance from God, is the right understanding to hold onto?

The Jewish oral tradition also has this same traditional misunderstanding of God's covenantal undertaking with Abraham as found in Genesis. 12:1-3. Their focus on the idol of the land is their undoing presently, rather that being gathered by God where they are presently scattered though out the face of the earth. All of the promises of salvation of the Gentiles hinges on the fact that the redeemed Israelites will be scattered around the earth.

Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

All of the promises of salvation of the Gentiles hinges on the fact that the redeemed Israelites will be scattered around the earth.

Not exactly. Here is what the Bible says:

ROMANS 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

What this means is that because of the unbelief of the Jews (in general), (1) they lost their special status with God, (2) they were spiritually blinded (judicially), and (3) God brought judgment upon Israel, Jerusalem, and Judah. Of course, the end result was that they were scattered around the earth because of unbelief. But as you can see, that is not for all time, since they will be regathered to Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Keraz]

Really, are you sure of your idolatrous worship of the "Promised Land," which God told Isaac was promised to confirm God's covenantal promises to Abraham when Abraham questioned God as to how he would now that he would receive the whole earth as his inheritance from God, is the right understanding to hold onto?

The Jewish oral tradition also has this same traditional misunderstanding of God's covenantal undertaking with Abraham as found in Genesis. 12:1-3. Their focus on the idol of the land is their undoing presently, rather that being gathered by God where they are presently scattered though out the face of the earth. All of the promises of salvation of the Gentiles hinges on the fact that the redeemed Israelites will be scattered around the earth.

Shalom

You just can't see the truth of who the real Israel are, can you?
Jesus did make it clear in Matthew 21:43...we Christians are the ones who bear the proper fruit. And Paul says in Galatians 3:26-29 and 6:16, that we ARE Abrahams children by our faith in Jesus. WE inherit the Promises of God and the holy Land is our heritage:

Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ we have been given our share in the heritage, as was decreed in His design …for it was God’s will that we, who were the first to set our hope on Jesus and to praise His glory.
And, in Christ, you Christians also, once you believed and received the Holy Spirit, the promise of the inheritance that will be ours, when God has redeemed all of His own, to His glory and praise.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, the Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises made through Jesus.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit of God affirms that we are His children and if children, then also the heirs of God and fellow heirs with Jesus, but we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.

Romans 8:19 The Created universe is waiting with eager expectation for God’s sons to be revealed.


Our greatest heritage as born again Christians is the promise of eternal life. John 3:16,Titus 3:5-7, + But we also inherit the Land promises, Psalms 37:29, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Ezekiel 34:11-31 It is we Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language, that are the vast multitude seen waving palm branches in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9

The ones who have passed thru the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal disaster and have earned the white garments by standing firm in our faith. Revelation 7:14

Note: in Romans 8:19, that God’s true children are not yet made known, Jesus will come with His winnowing fork and sift the wheat from the chaff. Matthew 3:12 Those Christians who stood strong in their faith when He comes in fire, Luke 12:49, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, are the wheat that will be gathered into the granary of the holy Land. The chaff of the ungodly peoples will be as ashes under our feet. Isaiah 66:17, Malachi 4:3, 2 Peter 3:7

 

[Jay Ross]

Not exactly. Here is what the Bible says:

ROMANS 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

What this means is that because of the unbelief of the Jews (in general), (1) they lost their special status with God, (2) they were spiritually blinded (judicially), and (3) God brought judgment upon Israel, Jerusalem, and Judah. Of course, the end result was that they were scattered around the earth because of unbelief. But as you can see, that is not for all time, since they will be regathered to Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

Yes I also know that is the present case, but in verses 25-26 it also tells us that they will be redeemed in our near future. Also the OT tells us that God will gather them to Himself where they are scattered throughout the earth and will use them where they are living at that time to be a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and God's possession among the nations.

It seems that you have a big blind spot in your understanding of God's purposes for Israel.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

You just can't see the truth of who the real Israel are, can you?
Jesus did make it clear in Matthew 21:43...we Christians are the ones who bear the proper fruit. And Paul says in Galatians 3:26-29 and 6:16, that we ARE Abrahams children by our faith in Jesus. WE inherit the Promises of God and the holy Land is our heritage:

Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ we have been given our share in the heritage, as was decreed in His design …for it was God’s will that we, who were the first to set our hope on Jesus and to praise His glory.
And, in Christ, you Christians also, once you believed and received the Holy Spirit, the promise of the inheritance that will be ours, when God has redeemed all of His own, to His glory and praise.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, the Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises made through Jesus.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit of God affirms that we are His children and if children, then also the heirs of God and fellow heirs with Jesus, but we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.

Romans 8:19 The Created universe is waiting with eager expectation for God’s sons to be revealed.


Our greatest heritage as born again Christians is the promise of eternal life. John 3:16,Titus 3:5-7, + But we also inherit the Land promises, Psalms 37:29, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Ezekiel 34:11-31 It is we Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language, that are the vast multitude seen waving palm branches in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9

The ones who have passed thru the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal disaster and have earned the white garments by standing firm in our faith. Revelation 7:14

Note: in Romans 8:19, that God’s true children are not yet made known, Jesus will come with His winnowing fork and sift the wheat from the chaff. Matthew 3:12 Those Christians who stood strong in their faith when He comes in fire, Luke 12:49, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, are the wheat that will be gathered into the granary of the holy Land. The chaff of the ungodly peoples will be as ashes under our feet. Isaiah 66:17, Malachi 4:3, 2 Peter 3:7

I can inform you once, twice and after the third time of informing you of your error in your understanding of God's purposes for all of mankind, I must leave it up to God to bring the revelation that you need.

It takes more than just reading the English translations to come to the right conclusions re God's purposes for Israel.

Shalom

PS 20 or so years ago I possibly would have agreed with you, but after all of these years of actually reading and understanding God's words as found in the scriptures, I have come to a very different understanding which is more in line with what is happening than what you present.

 

[Phoneman777]

1. The Antichrist must be a renegade Jew (coming to the Orthodox Jews as their true Messiah) not a papal system in Rome

Nope, the Antichrist is one who goes "out from us". Like Judas, the "Son of Perdition" was once among the faithful, but rebels in apostasy. The Antichrist arises from within, not from without.

2. His seat of authority must be in Jerusalem and the future temple

His seat of authority is over God's people, just like in the days of Jesus when God's people were ruled by wicked men who claimed to serve God, but were soundly rebuked by Jesus as "hypocrites".

3. His reign will be restricted to just 42 months (3 1/2 years)

Yes, 3 1/2 years (1,260 days) that are "symbolic" - or 1,260 literal years, from 538 A.D. when the papal reign of terror began until 1798 A.D. when it came to an end by the hand of Napoleon.

4. He will be the Arch Blasphemer of God and Christ

And since the Bible specifically defines "blasphemy" as claiming to be "one" with God and claiming the power to "forgive sin", the papacy is guilty as charged.

5. Along with Satan, he will have absolute control of all the inhabitants of the world, and will enforce the idolatrous worship of his own image

Yep, the papacy once controlled all of Europe with an iron fist and will eventually control the entire world when the Second Beast (the U.S.) forces everyone through economic sanction to bow down to the First Beast (the papacy)

6. He will demand that every person take a literal mark (or tattoo) in their right hand or forehead in order to transact any business

The only "sign" (Mark) that God ever established for His people was the Sabbath. The papacy itself claims that SUNDAY is their "Mark of Authority". In the OT, God desired His "law" be in "the right hand and in the forehead". Isaiah says, "Bind up the testimony, SEAL THE LAW among My disciples." The only one of God's laws which contains the elements of a seal - name, title, and territory - is the Sabbath commandment. The Mark of the Beast is a counterfeit - Sunday.

7. He will have supernatural Satanic powers to dazzle the world with signs, "lying wonders", and miracles.

You've never heard of all the miraculous signs "from heaven" that take place in the catholic church? Statues that cry milk or exude olive oil that is more pure than any that can be extracted by conventional methods; flower pedals that fall from the sky with images like "Madonna and child" that have grown into the pedal and are not painted on; Marian apparitions; stigmatas, etc., etc., etc.???

The papacy is the ONLY institution that fits all the identifying marks of Bible prophecy that have to do with Antichrist.

 

[Enoch111]

The papacy is the ONLY institution that fits all the identifying marks of Bible prophecy that have to do with Antichrist.

Well we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Phoneman777]

You have weaved yourself a trap you cannot get out of it.

If the pope were the Antichrist, then Christ's 2nd coming should have happened in their generation, because that is what timing God's Word gives for the appearance of the Antichrist that the Apostles warned of. That's why the early Church fathers explained about Christ's coming to defeat the Antichrist at the end of this world, because that is what Scripture reveals.

What "trap"? Where in God's Word is the "timing" of the arrival of Antichrist in the apostle's generation?

Also, the apostles expected the destruction of the temple would usher in the Second Coming and the end of the world - they couldn't help but think the two were inseparable...yet they were wrong, were they not? Some of the ECFs also believed the Antichrist's arrival would also usher in the same...but expectations of men are not the same as "thus saith the Lord".

The prophecies are claer that the "Little Horn" Antichrist was to reign for "1,260 days" symbolic, which are YEARS in the literal - the papacy ruled from 538 to 1798, before recieving a "deadly wound" which is now being healed by those of you who deny the truth of prophecy as revealed in the teachings of Historicism.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well we will have to agree to disagree.

You're the most agreeable disagreer I know of. If you're ever in NOLA, I'd love to buy you a Barq's Red Creme Soda and a po-boy sandwich :cool:

 

[brakelite]

You're the most agreeable disagreer I know of. If you're ever in NOLA, I'd love to buy you a Barq's Red Creme Soda and a po-boy sandwich :cool:

I agree with you about Enoch. Always good to converse with. But I have no clue what a Barq Soda is...let alone a po-boy sandwich????

 

[Nancy]

Nope, the Antichrist is one who goes "out from us". Like Judas, the "Son of Perdition" was once among the faithful, but rebels in apostasy. The Antichrist arises from within, not from without.
His seat of authority is over God's people, just like in the days of Jesus when God's people were ruled by wicked men who claimed to serve God, but were soundly rebuked by Jesus as "hypocrites".
Yes, 3 1/2 years (1,260 days) that are "symbolic" - or 1,260 literal years, from 538 A.D. when the papal reign of terror began until 1798 A.D. when it came to an end by the hand of Napoleon.
And since the Bible specifically defines "blasphemy" as claiming to be "one" with God and claiming the power to "forgive sin", the papacy is guilty as charged.
Yep, the papacy once controlled all of Europe with an iron fist and will eventually control the entire world when the Second Beast (the U.S.) forces everyone through economic sanction to bow down to the First Beast (the papacy)
The only "sign" (Mark) that God ever established for His people was the Sabbath. The papacy itself claims that SUNDAY is their "Mark of Authority". In the OT, God desired His "law" be in "the right hand and in the forehead". Isaiah says, "Bind up the testimony, SEAL THE LAW among My disciples." The only one of God's laws which contains the elements of a seal - name, title, and territory - is the Sabbath commandment. The Mark of the Beast is a counterfeit - Sunday.
You've never heard of all the miraculous signs "from heaven" that take place in the catholic church? Statues that cry milk or exude olive oil that is more pure than any that can be extracted by conventional methods; flower pedals that fall from the sky with images like "Madonna and child" that have grown into the pedal and are not painted on; Marian apparitions; stigmatas, etc., etc., etc.???

The papacy is the ONLY institution that fits all the identifying marks of Bible prophecy that have to do with Antichrist.

I have not been following along on this thread, just reading through some alerts :)
What do you think of the bolded text of the following scripture?

Daniel 9:24-27
26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

I am going to take a gander here and say that the "prince" is the Antichrist. Are the "people" spoken of here Romans?? Wasn't it Romans who destroyed the Temple? Just a thought :)

 

[Keraz]

It takes more than just reading the English translations to come to the right conclusions re God's purposes for Israel.

If you believe that the 'right conclusion for the Jewish State of Israel, is their redemption, then you have believed a lie.

Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

 

[Copperhead]

You just can't see the truth of who the real Israel are, can you?

No, many of us cannot see how you come to the conclusions you have regarding Jacob (Israel). But it is not surprising though. Many of us don't hold to the Two House / Ephraim concept. As much as you say that scripture supports it, there is one load of scripture that refutes it. It really is all in how one view hermeneutics. Either from a more literal approach or a allegorical approach.

Yeshua, any time He quoted the scripture, always seems to use a conservative literal approach.