When is 'Speaking in Tongues', true versus false.

[Berserk]

It's all hearsay. Second hand information just like today. No direct proof. Also highly questionable sources claiming the gifts. If it were for today, all would have the real gifts. Not the phony gifts being claimed today by a couple of sects.

Duh, by your argument, the reports in Acts and 1 Corinthians are all hearsay. You've got nothing in support of your naïve pontifications and I have laid out the modern Pentecostal position before which you freeze like Bambi in the headlights and have nothing to say! What you don't get is this: Christians have continued to speak in tongues throughout history. But even if they didn't, that says absolutely nothing about the ongoing validity of the gift of tongues! It is a gift that we must "strive for" according to Paul. If we don't do so, that's our problem, not the Holy Spirit's problem. The Spirit is not to blame for our trivialization of Scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Duh, by your argument, the reports in Acts and 1 Corinthians are all hearsay. You've got nothing in support of your naïve pontifications and I have laid out the modern Pentecostal position before which you freeze like Bambi in the headlights and have nothing to say! What you don't get is this: Christians have continued to speak in tongues throughout history. But even if they didn't, that says absolutely nothing about the ongoing validity of the gift of tongues! It is a gift that we must "strive for" according to Paul. If we don't do so, that's our problem, not the Holy Spirit's problem. The Spirit is not to blame for our trivialization of Scripture.

That is scripture. There's a big difference between scripture and history.

 

[Pearl]

Tongues are true when the person has been born again of the Spirit of Christ. IOW been baptized in the Spirit. One key prerequisite is repentance from all sin.

Tongues are false when the person has never repented of all sin, and thus has not received the Holy Spirit in the first place. For me I can tell when someone is speaking in copied-what-they've-heard tongues that are not true.

The New Covenant of the first century is still going strong, and will not end until the maker of the covenant comes again and after we've received the new heaven and new earth and we are living in His presence.

Oh I so agree with you. It is usually those who don't have the gift of tongues that deny it.

 

[Pearl]

The importance of speaking in tongues.

I believe there to be four basic manifestations of the gift of tongues.

· Tongues for personal edification. (1 Corinthians 14:4) This is the supernatural language the Holy Spirit prays through us that we can use to pray hour after hour if we desire. It often accompanies the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

· Tongues which require an interpretation. (1 Corinthians 14:5) This manifestation of tongues is normally presented in a public assembly accompanied by an interpretation by the same or another person. (Romans 8:26)

· Tongues of deep intercessional groaning. (Romans 8:26) This diversification of tongues empowers the believers to stand in the gap for their own lives, their families, their church, their city, their nation etc. God may also call on them to intercede for someone or for some situation that is totally unknown.

· Tongues as a sign to unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 14:22) This is the phenomenon that took place on the day of Pentecost. (Acts2:4-11) It occurs when the Holy Spirit transcends the intellect and all language barriers by empowering a believer to preach, teach or testify about Christ in some language of man of which the believer himself has no knowledge.

· I have also found that singing in tongues to praise and worship is another lovely way we can use the gift .

· And praying in tongues silently either in support of another person who is ‘ministering’ or in a public place is another way of using this gift.

I have come under fire on some Christian sites for expressing these views but I firmly believe them.

 

[Nancy]

The importance of speaking in tongues.

I believe there to be four basic manifestations of the gift of tongues.

· Tongues for personal edification. (1 Corinthians 14:4) This is the supernatural language the Holy Spirit prays through us that we can use to pray hour after hour if we desire. It often accompanies the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

· Tongues which require an interpretation. (1 Corinthians 14:5) This manifestation of tongues is normally presented in a public assembly accompanied by an interpretation by the same or another person. (Romans 8:26)

· Tongues of deep intercessional groaning. (Romans 8:26) This diversification of tongues empowers the believers to stand in the gap for their own lives, their families, their church, their city, their nation etc. God may also call on them to intercede for someone or for some situation that is totally unknown.

· Tongues as a sign to unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 14:22) This is the phenomenon that took place on the day of Pentecost. (Acts2:4-11) It occurs when the Holy Spirit transcends the intellect and all language barriers by empowering a believer to preach, teach or testify about Christ in some language of man of which the believer himself has no knowledge.

· I have also found that singing in tongues to praise and worship is another lovely way we can use the gift .

· And praying in tongues silently either in support of another person who is ‘ministering’ or in a public place is another way of using this gift.

I have come under fire on some Christian sites for expressing these views but I firmly believe them.

It's good to know we can express our views on here. I have never been given the gift of tongues and wish I was given it mainly for the prayer. My brother has it, as well as one of my sisters. I have asked for it many a time and when first becoming born again, I faked it...and so did my friend and two brothers. I thought I just was not saved! Since then, I have just accepted that not ALL speak in tongues, lol.

 

[Berserk]

That is scripture. There's a big difference between scripture and history.

In this case, both are equally heresay; and you need a basic course in logic because you are committing the fallacy of begging the question by assuming as true what is to be proven. Much of the tongues in the NT church was of the flesh and you have no way of knowning whether and to what extent modern tongues are legitimate. Nor do you any basis to prove the scholarly consensus wrong that 1 Cor 13:10-12 applies to the Parousia and not to the closure of the biblical canon.

 

[Helen]

1 Corinthians 14:2 tells us that your beliefs are wrong. "2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

It wasn't the gospel they were speaking in tongues, but praises to God. You have learned the common false teaching on tongues that I've heard time and time again, and even believed myself in my youth. You must check what you are hearing from your teachers to see if they concur with all scripture. It is one reason I am no longer a denominationalist.

I'm jumping in here with you and @quietthinker

Reading what you are both writing seems to be two different things.
When we speak in tongues it is indeed worship and to God. We don't understand it but we 'do' in our spirit man and are built up in our holy faith.

What @quietthinker is talking about is..( as I read it, but maybe wrong)
..that the visitors and multitude at Pentecost each heard Peters sermon ( which is written in acts ) as the apostles spoke in tongues , they heard God word to them... The mockers thought they were all drunk because 'they' did not understand what was going on.

I know one missionary lady. Miss Fox, who when in Africa in a village who dialect she could not understand , opened her mouth at the prompting of the Lord, and utters tongues that she did not understand...but the village heard God's word, and even the witchdoctor was touched by God and almost the whole village got saved. God in action, nothing of her...

To see Miss Fox, she looked like a regular oldish lady heading off to shop at the local grocery store... but very powerful in the pulpit when God fell upon her. :)

 

[Helen]

These 7 statements are biblical sound. If a skeptic wants to dispute them, I want to him to first establish his awareness of the texts that establish each claim. If he can't, then he hasn't done his homework and is not worth debating. If he can, I will start a separate thread that defends each claim. I don't want to derail this thread.
(1) Paul distinguishes private prayer in tongues from messages in tongues in church that must be interpreted.
(2) Like prophecy, speaking in tongues is a charism intended for every believer.
(a) The NT repeatedly commands us to pray in the Spirit and glossolalia is one form of praying in the Spirit.
(b) Paul wants us all to speak in tongues and thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than the Corinthians.
(3) The tongues speaker builds himself up and receives an enhancement of heartfelt praise.
(4) Modern scholars agree that there is no biblical grounds for cessationism (certainly not 1 Cor. 13:8-12).
(5)The Greek word "glosse" ("tongue") need not mean "language" when applied to ecstatic speech. [See the Kittel word study of the use of "glosse" in the Greco-Roman world.]
(6) The outpouring in Acts 2 is the only clear NT example of tongues as human languages in the NT. To that end it is designated "dialect" and "prophecy" to distinguish it from validly uninterpreted tongues which are clearly distinguished from prophecy.
(7) For Paul "tongues" can even designate angelic speech.
(8) There are many examples of human languages being spoking in modern glossolalia by people who don't know those languages.

Amen bro ! ( or should I say Joe :) )
....

 

[Helen]

The points are meaningless. Tongues ceased as Paul said. Had they not they would have continued throughout church history. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. You imply they did.

My dear friend, you do talk a load of twaddle.
You say 'Tongues ceased with Paul' what nonsense ..thousands speak in tongues to day..and always have done...many of the late great old tyme preachers spoke in tongues.

I've said many times before...just because you had a bad experience and people who didn't know what they were doing....does not nullify God in action Dave.

No matter how much you try, you can't tell us who can 'see' that we are blind.
WE CAN SEE!!!!

I believe you are bound by fear. And that is very sad.
I have met others who were led wrong, and threw baby and bathwater out.

 

[Berserk]

That is scripture. There's a big difference between scripture and history.

Now it's you who are speaking jibberish! Scripture records the judgment that much of Corinthians glossolalia was "of the flesh" rather than Spirit-inspired. You have no grounds whatever to assume that modern tongues are less Spirit-inspired than the tongues spoken in Paul's churches.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm jumping in here with you and @quietthinker

Reading what you are both writing seems to be two different things.
When we speak in tongues it is indeed worship and to God. We don't understand it but we 'do' in our spirit man and are built up in our holy faith.

What @quietthinker is talking about is..( as I read it, but maybe wrong)
..that the visitors and multitude at Pentecost each heard Peters sermon ( which is written in acts ) as the apostles spoke in tongues , they heard God word to them... The mockers thought they were all drunk because 'they' did not understand what was going on.

I know one missionary lady. Miss Fox, who when in Africa in a village who dialect she could not understand , opened her mouth at the prompting of the Lord, and utters tongues that she did not understand...but the village heard God's word, and even the witchdoctor was touched by God and almost the whole village got saved. God in action, nothing of her...

To see Miss Fox, she looked like a regular oldish lady heading off to shop at the local grocery store... but very powerful in the pulpit when God fell upon her. :)

When Peter gave his sermon regarding the fulfillment of Joel 2 prophecy, he wasn't speaking it in tongues, and what is written was the interpretation. Is that what you thought?

What happened with Miss Fox speaking in tongues, and the whole village received the interpretation, was exactly what happened on the Day of Pentecost. When the 120 were speaking in tongues, each devout Jew heard all of them speaking his own language. It is like three people speaking in tongues. One language was French, another spoke Spanish, and another spoke Japaneses. But an Englishman HEARD ALL OF THEM speaking English; a Russian HEARD ALL OF THEM speaking Russian, and a Greek HEARD ALL OF THEM speaking Greek. The language spoken in tongues is not the language of the person hearing it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

My dear friend, you do talk a load of twaddle.
You say 'Tongues ceased with Paul' what nonsense ..thousands speak in tongues to day..and always have done...many of the late great old tyme preachers spoke in tongues.

I've said many times before...just because you had a bad experience and people who didn't know what they were doing....does not nullify God in action Dave.

No matter how much you try, you can't tell us who can 'see' that we are blind.
WE CAN SEE!!!!

I believe you are bound by fear. And that is very sad.
I have met others who were led wrong, and threw baby and bathwater out.

I laughed out loud! You are soooooooo funny! (and true)

 

[Dave L]

Now it's you who are speaking jibberish! Scripture records the judgment that much of Corinthians glossolalia was "of the flesh" rather than Spirit-inspired. You have no grounds whatever to assume that modern tongues are less Spirit-inspired than the tongues spoken in Paul's churches.

All things but love end on the last day. Paul said tongues would end. So if they were to end anyway on the last day, why mention it? The truth is, they ceased and their absence in Church history proved Paul's prophecy is true. You are making him out to be a false prophet by claiming the gifts remain.

 

[Dave L]

My dear friend, you do talk a load of twaddle.
You say 'Tongues ceased with Paul' what nonsense ..thousands speak in tongues to day..and always have done...many of the late great old tyme preachers spoke in tongues.

I've said many times before...just because you had a bad experience and people who didn't know what they were doing....does not nullify God in action Dave.

No matter how much you try, you can't tell us who can 'see' that we are blind.
WE CAN SEE!!!!

I believe you are bound by fear. And that is very sad.
I have met others who were led wrong, and threw baby and bathwater out.

Think about it for a while. Paul said tongues would cease. Everything ceases at the end of the world, so why mention it if that is when they cease? Church history and scripture show they ceased by the time John wrote Revelation, when scripture replaced them. This confirmed Paul's prophecy was true. If tongues were for today, the whole church, not just a couple of highly questionable sects, would be employing them.

 

[Dave L]

In this case, both are equally heresay; and you need a basic course in logic because you are committing the fallacy of begging the question by assuming as true what is to be proven. Much of the tongues in the NT church was of the flesh and you have no way of knowning whether and to what extent modern tongues are legitimate. Nor do you any basis to prove the scholarly consensus wrong that 1 Cor 13:10-12 applies to the Parousia and not to the closure of the biblical canon.

If tongues cease at the end of the world, why would Paul mention the obvious? It's because they were to cease when the perfect word of God replaced them.

 

[Dave L]

Oh I so agree with you. It is usually those who don't have the gift of tongues that deny it.

I thought I had the gift to. But in studying the word, they are not the originals by any stretch.

 

[Helen]

Paul said tongues would end.

Paul also said in that chapter “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

There is One perfect and the end has not yet come in all its Glory.
You twist scripture to fit your personal doctrine!!!!!

Last time I looked we are all very much still in the - "in part" stage.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If tongues cease at the end of the world, why would Paul mention the obvious? It's because they were to cease when the perfect word of God replaced them.

Dave's error is in thinking that tongues were for the purpose of writing the Bible. No, they were for perfect prayer saying the will of God. We still pray don't we???

 

[Dave L]

Paul also said in that chapter “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

There is One perfect and the end has not yet come in all its Glory.
You twist scripture to fit your personal doctrine!!!!!

Last time I looked we are all very much still in the - "in part" stage.

If this happens at the end of the world, why would Paul say tongues would cease if they were to cease anyway with everything else?

Paul said; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)

Notice the Revelation would also confirm them to the end. So it does not happen at the end.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

So he was saying the gifts would expire with the Revelation of Jesus Christ that we now know was written by John in either 60 or 90 AD.

All of the gifts expired, and history confirms this, as John published Revelation.


602. ἀποκάλυψις apŏkalupsis, ap-ok-al´-oop-sis; from 601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 14).

used for Revelation by Paul and John

 

[Berserk]

Dave K: "If tongues cease at the end of the world, why would Paul mention the obvious? It's because they were to cease when the perfect word of God replaced them."
You keep ignoring the decisive fact that has been pointed out to you: tongues cease only when we seek Him "face to face (1 Corinthians 13:10, 12), that is, after His Parousia or Second Coming.

Dave L: "Paul said; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)"
Notice the Revelation would also confirm them to the end. So it does not happen at the end.

Modern academic commentaries on 1 Corinthians agree that both "the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" refer to His Parousia or Second Coming. So the thought is that their spiritual gifts will confirm them until the end, the Second Coming. Thus 1:7 is totally consistent with 13:10-12. Since you obviously don't know Greek, you really do need to go a to university library and read some modern academic commentaries on 1 Corinthians and Revelation.

Dave L: "“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)." So he was saying the gifts would expire with the Revelation of Jesus Christ that we now know was written by John in either 60 or 90 AD."

Again, you suffer from failing to consult modern academic commentaries on the Book of Revelation. The phrase "which must soon come to pass" in 1:1 simply reflects John's belief that the Second Coming of Christ will happen "soon (22:20). You cannot find a single academic commentary on Revelation that claims the cessation of the gifts of the Spirit at the closure of the biblical canon! So the gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues continue in to the 2nd and 3rd centuries (so Irenaeus and Tertullian).