The Elect?

[VictoryinJesus]

See post #(128)

Stranger

Ok. You agree all were on Adam? Are the elect then the ones elected of God and taken from Adam and placed in the perfect man which is Christ...a new creature. The topic was why are they elected? Only wanted to bring up the difference between in Christ and in Adam as to why maybe they are elected. Life or death. The difference between dishonorable vessels and honorable vessels. Would you agree those that remain in Adam are dishonorable vessels while those in Christ are honorable vessels of mercy?

 

[Mjh29]

One has to place faith in Christ to get out of Adam and be in Christ. Take it up with God. It's a requirement He has made.

Yes. Just because it is required does not mean man is able. Your logic says because it is required, all men must be able. God also commanded the Israelites to follow the 10 Commandments. Does that mean that they were capable?

I have already told you. Being in Adam is not a sin.

Ok, let's bring up some basic math: No sin = No penalty. If being in Adam is not a sin, there is no penalty for it. You said that all the rest of my sins would be paid for if I was not in Adam, but that being in Adam is not a sin. Therefore there would be not penalty for being in Adam, which negates the need to be in Christ and not in Adam. You are saying "You sins aren't forgiven if you are in Adam" but if it is not a sin, there is no reasoning behind claiming your are condemned because you are in Adam! Our location can only hold us back from being saved if it is a sin to be in one location and not another.

Sin condemns and brings penalty --> Christ paid for all sins --> Our sins are not forgiven because of our location in Adam --> Our location in Adam is not a sin. --> If our location is not a sin there is not penalty for it. --> If there is not penalty, there is no condemnation --> All our sins are forgiven, because our location, regardless of here or there, is not a sin. --> All men go to heaven

 

[bbyrd009]

I like everything but the inferred conclusion there, good points

 

[Stranger]

Again, you were not literally in your dad's loins, neither was Levi literally in Abraham's loins. Each and every person is created at conception. For your belief to be true, all souls were created at the same time Adam was created.

Are you literally in Christ?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

The reason why Levi was in Abraham's loins was due to lineage and also being in the Abrahamic Covenant. Abraham was the head of that covenant. Adam was the head of the Adamic Covenant, David the head of the Davidic Covenant, &c.

Lineage is not the subject in (Heb. 7). Pay attention.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I'm not quite getting why in Adam all die isn't adequate for SG there either, but now I'm kinda wondering as you are so adept in Scripture otherwise, why you don't ever consider these Patriarchs more as like "types" than actual ppl...or do you?

Was Jesus a type? Why or why not?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Was Jesus a type? Why or why not?

Stranger

I would say yes if you are ready to apostle under a High Priest, and no if you need Someone to appease an Angry God

 

[Stranger]

Yes. Just because it is required does not mean man is able. Your logic says because it is required, all men must be able. God also commanded the Israelites to follow the 10 Commandments. Does that mean that they were capable?



Ok, let's bring up some basic math: No sin = No penalty. If being in Adam is not a sin, there is no penalty for it. You said that all the rest of my sins would be paid for if I was not in Adam, but that being in Adam is not a sin. Therefore there would be not penalty for being in Adam, which negates the need to be in Christ and not in Adam. You are saying "You sins aren't forgiven if you are in Adam" but if it is not a sin, there is no reasoning behind claiming your are condemned because you are in Adam! Our location can only hold us back from being saved if it is a sin to be in one location and not another.

Sin condemns and brings penalty --> Christ paid for all sins --> Our sins are not forgiven because of our location in Adam --> Our location in Adam is not a sin. --> If our location is not a sin there is not penalty for it. --> If there is not penalty, there is no condemnation --> All our sins are forgiven, because our location, regardless of here or there, is not a sin. --> All men go to heaven

The Law was never given so that man would follow. It was given to reveal sin in man. Which it does very well.

There is no penalty for being in Adam. There is penalty for being a sinner. Because Adam sinned then you are a sinner, and thus a penalty. God placing you in Adam is not a sin. You being placed in Adam is not a sin. Because God placed you in Adam, and because Adam sinned, then you are now a sinner. Our location determines if we are a sinner or saint. In Adam or in Christ.

Our location in Adam due to Adams sin, makes all in Adam a sinner. The fact that we were placed in Adam by God is not a sin.

Because all in Adam are guilty of sin, Adams sin, then they will go to hell unless they get out of Adam and into Christ by faith.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I would say yes if you are ready to apostle under a High Priest, and no if you need Someone to appease an Angry God

Is the High Priest a type or real? Is the Someone a type or real?

Stranger

 

[Mjh29]

There is no penalty for being in Adam. There is penalty for being a sinner.

You said:
1.) Being in Adam makes one a sinner
2.) There is no penalty in being in Adam
3.) There is a penalty for sin.

This is not logical at all, an is indeed impossible. Being in Adam CAUSES the sin; how can the cause of sin NOT be a sin in and of itself? Something that is not sinful cannot beget sin. It would begat goodness if it in and of itself is not sin.

You say:
Being in Adam makes one a sinner --> There is a penalty for sin --> Being in Adam is not a sin

Logically, you belief leads to this conclusion:
Being in Adam makes you a sinner [causes sin] --> There is a penalty for sin --> Being in Adam must be a sin

All this logical falsehood, and we have not even yet begun to get into the Scriptures themselves! Your position is not even logical much less biblical.

 

[Stranger]

You said:
1.) Being in Adam makes one a sinner
2.) There is no penalty in being in Adam
3.) There is a penalty for sin.

This is not logical at all, an is indeed impossible. Being in Adam CAUSES the sin; how can the cause of sin NOT be a sin in and of itself? Something that is not sinful cannot beget sin. It would begat goodness if it in and of itself is not sin.

You say:
Being in Adam makes one a sinner --> There is a penalty for sin --> Being in Adam is not a sin

Logically, you belief leads to this conclusion:
Being in Adam makes you a sinner [causes sin] --> There is a penalty for sin --> Being in Adam must be a sin

All this logical falsehood, and we have not even yet begun to get into the Scriptures themselves! Your position is not even logical much less biblical.

You're not being honest in what I have said.

I said, being in Adam is not a sin. Due to Adams sin, we are all sinners. Thus that is not illogical at all. What is illogical is your denial of what I am saying. Because what I am saying is against what you are saying. You completely ignore that God has placed us in Adam. And that is not a sin.

Stranger

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You said:
1.) Being in Adam makes one a sinner
2.) There is no penalty in being in Adam
3.) There is a penalty for sin.

This is not logical at all, an is indeed impossible. Being in Adam CAUSES the sin; how can the cause of sin NOT be a sin in and of itself? Something that is not sinful cannot beget sin. It would begat goodness if it in and of itself is not sin.

You say:
Being in Adam makes one a sinner --> There is a penalty for sin --> Being in Adam is not a sin

Logically, you belief leads to this conclusion:
Being in Adam makes you a sinner [causes sin] --> There is a penalty for sin --> Being in Adam must be a sin

All this logical falsehood, and we have not even yet begun to get into the Scriptures themselves! Your position is not even logical much less biblical.

My brain hurts!!

 

[Stranger]

My brain hurts!!

Then go swim in the shallow pool.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Ok. You agree all were on Adam? Are the elect then the ones elected of God and taken from Adam and placed in the perfect man which is Christ...a new creature. The topic was why are they elected? Only wanted to bring up the difference between in Christ and in Adam as to why maybe they are elected. Life or death. The difference between dishonorable vessels and honorable vessels. Would you agree those that remain in Adam are dishonorable vessels while those in Christ are honorable vessels of mercy?

Yes, all at one time are in Adam. Due to the fall, another seed line is introduced that is not of God. The non-elect become in Adam due to the fall and are not of God. The elect are in Adam because they are of God.

The non-elect who went down in Adam, didn't matter. They were never of God in the first place. They were the product of another seed introduced with the fall of Adam. The elect of God are the ones we call 'lost'. Christ came to save the lost. And He will make sure that all the lost shall be saved. But the non-elect were never lost. They were never of God in the first place.

Again, as to why you and I are elect, God just doesn't say. All we can do is praise God that we are. He certainly didn't choose us because there was so many good things in us. We are always and will always forever be a picture of Grace in eternity. In other words, we didn't deserve it. In my opinion it is not a question of why did He elect us. It is a fact that we were always of Him. And He decided to put us through this experience we endure on earth for His purpose.

Stranger

 

[SovereignGrace]

My brain hurts!!

Your twin says he needs it back onced you have quit needing it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Ive just showed you. If God did not place you in Adam then you are not in Adam. Which means you were not born a sinner. Which means you're on your own.

Was Levi in Abraham? Who placed him there?

Adam is not our representative if we are not in Adam.

Stranger

Why didn't Judah, Gad, Reuben, Judah et al pay tithes in Abraham, too?

The reason why was the writer of Hebrews was telling them that the Levitical priesthood was lesser than the Melchizadekan priesthood. That is why the Christ had to come through this priesthood, which was a higher order. This is about lineage.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then go swim in the shallow pool.

Stranger

That way he can save you from drowning.

 

[Stranger]

Why didn't Judah, Gad, Reuben, Judah et al pay tithes in Abraham, too?

The reason why was the writer of Hebrews was telling them that the Levitical priesthood was lesser than the Melchizadekan priesthood. That is why the Christ had to come through this priesthood, which was a higher order. This is about lineage.

They did. But Levi is the tribe of the priesthood, so it needed bearing out. It proves the superiority of the Melchisedecian priesthood. It is not about lineage, trying to prove any lineage one way or the other.

The point is, Levi was literally in the loins of Abraham. All born of Adam were literally in Adam. As I said, if it is not that way, then one man cannot represent the race. That it is that way is clearly seen in (Rom. 5:13-14) Those from Adam to Moses died only because of Adams sin. Not theirs. Why? Because they were in Adam.

I know that has already been said, but repetition is the price of knowledge.

Stranger

 

[SovereignGrace]

They did. But Levi is the tribe of the priesthood, so it needed bearing out. It proves the superiority of the Melchisedecian priesthood. It is not about lineage, trying to prove any lineage one way or the other.

The point is, Levi was literally in the loins of Abraham. All born of Adam were literally in Adam. As I said, if it is not that way, then one man cannot represent the race. That it is that way is clearly seen in (Rom. 5:13-14) Those from Adam to Moses died only because of Adams sin. Not theirs. Why? Because they were in Adam.

I know that has already been said, but repetition is the price of knowledge.

Stranger

It does not say they paid tithes in Abraham. It said Levi paid tithes, not one mentioning of Isaac, Ishmael, Judah, Reuben, Gad, et al.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They did. But Levi is the tribe of the priesthood, so it needed bearing out. It proves the superiority of the Melchisedecian priesthood. It is not about lineage, trying to prove any lineage one way or the other.

The point is, Levi was literally in the loins of Abraham. All born of Adam were literally in Adam. As I said, if it is not that way, then one man cannot represent the race. That it is that way is clearly seen in (Rom. 5:13-14) Those from Adam to Moses died only because of Adams sin. Not theirs. Why? Because they were in Adam.

I know that has already been said, but repetition is the price of knowledge.

Stranger

The reason why Levi is mentioned is because the theme is about the two priesthoods. One far exceeds the other. The Christ could not come through the Levitical priesthood(I know you know this, just adding it to the convo), because His lineage is through Judah(again, I know you know this, just adding it to the convo).

There is no mentioning of the other 11 as the focal point is on Levi through the lineage of Abraham.