The Elect?
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bbyrd009
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The patriarchs ("arche") are the types for us...as well as the anti-pats I guess, Judas, Edom, etc
bbyrd009
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We get an excellent grasp of it all literally first, and then hopefully pluck an eye out and then just as quick as lightning flashes from east to west, we're back to zero
only we now have all the groundwork done
only we now have all the groundwork done
bbyrd009
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No, we can't. You have the type and you have that which the type typifies.
And, just because one is the type doesn't mean it wasn't real. Adam is a type of Christ. Eve is a type of the Church. Both are real.
Stranger
bbyrd009
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Well not disagreeing--except maybe to the top, where I suspect we are discussing at cross-purposes anyway--ha and even kudos, we turn out to be both Adam and Eve after all huh, but really I suggest that you cannot see either of them with your eyes, nor touch them with your hands, right.
yet they turn out to be somehow realer than our chairs lol
or even our own bodies.
Do you happen to know any oriental Christians, maybe in your congregation?
bc imo you have gone completely as far as you can go literally
iow you would not be easy to fool, any new perception could immediately be tested with known Scripture, etc. Unfort it is still uncomfortable at first, "out of the comfort zone" should be a component actually, I got Scrip for that if you want
Deuteronomy 23:10-13 | The Old Testamentary Latrine | Commentary
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bbyrd009
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BARNEY BRIGHT
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I don't understand why people can't believe that a true righteous person, human or angel can't choose one day to do evil. It's like such people reason that such a person couldn't truly have been righteous in the first place. Well true righteous people still have free will and can choose one day to do evil if they're not consistently progressing in love toward The True God Jehovah. Even true righteous intelligent beings, Angels or humans have to continue or progress in their love for the true God or they will focus on things that aren't beneficial to them and not love The True God as they should. Isn't that what happen to the Angel who became Satan and the Devil. Isn't that what happened to the first human pair is that they didn't continue to love God as they should have.
Davy
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This thread is the same old attempts by some that want to separate any idea about Israel apart from Christ's Church!
Who would want to try and separate Christ's future Kingdom of Israel apart from His Church? Those like the unbelieving Pharisees of course, because Jesus took His Kingdom away from them! (Matthew 21 with the parable of the husbandmen).
Who would want to try and separate Christ's future Kingdom of Israel apart from His Church? Those like the unbelieving Pharisees of course, because Jesus took His Kingdom away from them! (Matthew 21 with the parable of the husbandmen).
bbyrd009
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Did you stop to think how ridiculous this sounds?
1. Humans have no power to separate the kingdom of Israel from the Church. That is solely God's prerogative and privilege, and He Himself makes this distinction.
2. You are equating Christians who reject your incorrect understand of God's plans and purposes with unbelieving Pharisees. That is an insult to both Christians and Christ. But it shows that you yourself do not know how to rightly divide the Word of Truth, while bearing false witness.
3. Had you taken the time to study Romans 11 carefully you would have discovered that the New Testament itself teaches that after the full number of Gentiles has been added to the Church, God will resume His direct dealings with Israel and the Jews AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. Which means that you are the one who is not in sync with God's plans and purposes.
ROMANS 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Since you are objecting to God's plans, you now have a duty to study this passage carefully, cross-reference everything, and then apologize to the Christians whom you equate with unbelievers.
Davy
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What's truly ridiculous are those who keep screaming 'Replacement Theology' when Jesus Himself was clear that He removed His Kingdom from the care of the scribes and Pharisees who rejected Him. I mean, that is NT Bible 101!
That is what those who yell "Replacement Theology" keep claiming Christianity does though. It's also called Supersessionism, the idea that the Christian Church has superseded the Israelites (natural Israel) as the people of God. It's only true IF... those born of Israel remain in unbelief, for to remain in unbelief on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ means no part in God's Salvation Plan through His Son. Nevertheless, per what Jesus said in Matthew 21, His Kingdom has been REMOVED from the blind scribes and Pharisees (i.e., the unbelievers). That's a New Covenant FACT. No one... is under the old covenant anymore!
I just showed you the Matthew 21 Scripture of what Jesus Himself said. Why won't you believe it as written?
I intend no insults, but if there must be insult, then my Lord Jesus Christ already insulted the unbelieving Israelites in Matthew 21 when He told them His Kingdom would be removed from their care, and instead given to a nation bearing its fruits. Do you know what the main Fruit of Christ's Kingdom is? It's The Gospel of Jesus Christ! Has it been bearing much fruit since Jesus died on the cross? YES! You betcha! And it's going to keep on... bearing much fruit, all the way up to the day of Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church!
Oh, I understand Romans 11 perfectly. It's those like you who don't.
I well know that God blinded Israel in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And those represent Apostle Paul's brethren, the Jews who in majority still reject Jesus as Messiah. Zechariah 12 shows when God removes their blindness, i.e., on the day of Christ's second coming. Jesus revealed in Luke 23 they will wish for the hills and mountains to fall on them because of their shame. It will be because of how they were deceived and rejected Him. Many of them will believe on Jesus and bow to Him as The Christ and be saved. See, I already know this. And they must... bow to Jesus as The Christ, no mistaking that requirement for all.
What you're not aware of obviously, and how Jesus MOVED His Kingdom and throne to another 'nation' that would bear its fruits. And I'll give you a hint where. After the Passion of Christ, where was The Gospel preached and whole nations accepted it and became Christian nations?
In reality, even believing Jews that forget that Christ's Kingdom is the real Kingdom of Israel per God's original promise by Faith to Abraham, then Isaac, and Jacob (Israel), it kind of irks me when those same believing Jews still try to align themselves with the orthodox unbelieving Jews, even though those are still attempting to re-establish the old covenant with sacrifices again, and trying to prove by their return that the old places of Israel are now re-established. David's throne is no more in today's Jerusalem, and won't be until Christ Jesus returns to sit upon it in Jerusalem.
Why did you stop with the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees? They are not the ones who determine when Christ's real, visible, physical and spiritual, tangible Kingdom will be established on earth.
Why did you not follow through with the believing apostles who asked this question: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (Acts 1:6)
1. Did the Lord rebuke them for asking this legitimate question? NO
2. Did the Lord tell them that that expectation was sheer nonsense, and that the only Kingdom would be an invisible and spiritual Kingdom? NO
3. Did the Lord tell them that the Church had replaced Israel, so the question was moot? NO
How did the Lord respond? It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:7,8)
It is right here that Christ ushered in the Church Age, WITHOUT REJECTING THE TRUTH ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL. Once the Church Age is complete (when the fulness of the Gentiles has come into the Church) God will resume His direct dealings with Israel so that there will be a redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel on earth after Christ.
And Paul went on to tell us that that Kingdom on earth would become a reality after the second coming of Christ: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:26,27)
What does all this tell us? Replacement Theology is BOGUS, and has no basis in Scripture. Just another man-made doctrine.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nah, you can't use what He said in Acts 1 as an excuse for His Kingdom being established based on any... Jew's beliefs.
And it has nothing to do with Darby's Dispensationalist "Church ages" theories either. That's another doctrine of men that's blocking you from God's Truth on this.
As I have said, and already pointed you to, Jesus said in Matthew 21 that His kingdom would be taken... from those unbelieving Jews and instead given to a "nation" that would bring forth its fruit. That is about The Gospel as that fruit, so no one can say the unbelieving Jews were ever... a part of that! And Jesus didn't say "Church", there, He said His "kingdom" in Matt.21.
Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That was true because the unbelieving Jews He appeared to with The Gospel first in Judea rejected Him, and instead crucified Him. So The Gospel went to the ten lost tribes of Israel, even as Apostle Paul showed in Romans 9 when quoting from Hosea (which prophecy was originally given only to the ten tribes of Israel), and treating both believing Israelite and Gentile as being the sons of the living God. Those became Christ's Church, both believing Israelite and believing Gentiles together as one body, i.e., Christ's Church.
And The Gospel was thus preached to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe, and one by one, with Britain becoming the first, on the whole put away their pagan gods which had them hidden as God's people, and instead believed on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Saviour, and they became Christian nations, with thrones of kings and queens established upon them! This was God's Plan all along.
In Genesis 49, Jacob gathered his twelve sons around him and told them what would befall them in the last days, and then gave a prophecy for each son. For Judah, he said the sceptre (royal rule) would NOT depart from Judah until Shiloh (Jesus) come, and to Him will the gathering of the people be. That means David's throne is still... supposed to be established today, on earth, as per God's promise to David through all generations. Just because David's throne in Jerusalem ended with the destruction of Jerusalem by the king of Babylon in Jeremiah's day didn't mean that throne ended on earth. Jeremiah the prophet was kinsmen redeemer to the remaining daughters of Zedekiah king of Judah. He escaped with them to Egypt. God had told Jeremiah from the outset that He called Jeremiah to be a prophet to the 'nations', to tear down and destroy, but also to 'plant' and 'build'. In no area of the middle east did Jeremiah the prophet do any planting or building up of another nation.
So you are prepared to reject what Christ says about His Kingdom in order to cling to your bogus theology? Exactly what happens in 99.9% of all cases. People simply do not want to acknowledge God's truth from God's Word today.
Since Christ was a Jew -- a Hebrew of the Hebrews -- you don't really want to believe that it is that Jewish Messiah who will eventually establish the Jewish kingdom of Israel on earth, with the 12 tribes in the land of Israel. You really don't want to believe that it is the Holy Spirit who said through Paul "And so all Israel shall be saved". In other words, what is plainly stated in Scripture means nothing to you.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Jesus didn't reveal to His disciples there in Acts 1 the answer to their question. So you can dispel with trying to make one up. The OT prophets is where His disciples got the idea of a re-establishing of David's throne and kingdom, but they nor you have understood what all that meant (though I tried to explain it to you in my previous two posts). Thus it is you that is not satisfied with Christ's response to His disciple's question in Acts 1, not me.
Firstly, not all Hebrews are Israelites. The name Hebrew comes from the name Eber of Genesis 10:21. Abram (later called Abraham) was a Hebrew because of his ancestor Eber.
Secondly, per the JEWISH historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the title of Jew first began to be used by those returning of the house of Judah from their 70 years Babylon captivity. Ezra 2 reveals that only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, along with foreigners, returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the city, wall, and eventually the 2nd temple:
Nehemiah's Address to the Jews:
"He also called together all the people to Jerusalem; and stood in the midst of the temple, and made the following speech to them. 'You know, O Jews, that God hath kept our fathers Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in mind continually; and for the sake of their righteousness hath not left off the care of you. Indeed he hath assisted me in gaining this authority of the King to raise up our wall, and finish what is wanting of the temple. I desire you therefore, who well know the ill will our neighbouring nations bear to us, and that when once they once are made sensible that we are in earnest about building, they will come upon us, and contrive many ways of obstructing our works, that you will, in the first place, put your trust in God; as in him that will assist us against their hatred, and to intermit building neither night nor day; but to use all diligence, and to hasten on the work, now we have this especial opportunity for it.' When he had said this, he gave order that the rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the people, according to their villages and cities; as every ones ability should require. And when he had added this promise, that he himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the assembly. So the Jews prepared for the work. That is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon; which is taken from the tribe of Judah,. which came first to these places, and thence both they and the countrey gained that appellation."
(Antiquities of the Jews, Flavius Josephus, Book XI, Chapter V, 7).
According to my memory in God's Word, there were more tribes of Israel than just the tribe of Judah. Josephus referred to those of the house of Judah only who began to use the title of Jew. The majority of the ten northern tribes of Israel were not even part of the Jews' captivity to Babylon. Instead, the majority of Israel had already been removed out of the land about 130 years prior to the Jews' captivity to Babylon. Apparently, you don't read your Bible enough, nor research history enough, to know about that. And you can't try and say all the ten northern tribes were joined with the house of Judah, because God's Word doesn't reveal that either, but only about a small number of northern tribe Israelites that moved south to join with Judah early on... in the history of the divided two kingdoms, something I've already shown, but you denied.
2 Chron 11:14-17
14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
KJV
Those northern tribe Israelites that went south to join with Judah were a minority out of the northern tribes. It happened when Jeroboam king of Israel setup golden calf worship in the north, and made common priests of the people, which caused the above events.
So the Jews meant Biblically, the "house of Judah", which was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and foreigners who lived in Judea because like Josephus said, the whole country took the title of Jew. It did not... apply to the ten northern tribes of Israel which was a different geographical location and a different kingdom after 1 Kings 11. The idea that all Israelites are Jews is a falsehood.
Furthermore, I have already addressed in a previous post the future kingdom of Israel under Christ Jesus. It is His Church, and it will... be called Israel, and it will involve a re-establishing of the 12 tribes with Christ's Apostles sitting on 12 thrones in His Kingdom. It is impossible to separate Christ and His Church from that, as I also explained how it is that the name 'Israel' is the Salvation name given Jacob, which is hard-linked to God's Promise by Faith through Abraham. Apostle Paul explained this to Christ's Church in Galatians 3.
Gal 3:6-7
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
KJV
Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV
Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV
And the bottom line of course is... Christ's Church is... His future Kingdom and it will be named Israel, the Salvation by Faith name given to Jacob.
Totally backwards logic. It doesn't say ....and the gospel will be preached in all Israel and then the end will come. It is to ALL NATIONS.
So you have it backwards. First the natural...THEN the spiritual (but not back again to the natural as you would have it)
Read more about what "ALL Israel" means. It means Ephraim....and the disciples from every nation and tongue...the fulness of the nations that is Ephraim. (as recorded in Genesis)
Do a better study than just misunderstanding one verse and making a false doctrine from it.
You are the one who making a false doctrine by calling Gentiles "Ephraim" and "all Israel". Ephraim is clearly shown as one of the twelve tribes and identified as "Joseph" in Revelation 7 (since Ephraim was one of the sons of Joseph), and as actual Ephraim in Ezekiel 48. So let's look at the Scriptures, not FLIGHTS OF FANCY.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand... Of the tribe of Joseph [Ephraim] were sealed twelve thousand. (Rev 7:6,8)
And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh. And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. (Ezek 48:4,5)
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