Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

[justbyfaith]

No - you NEVER address EPIGJNOSIS in these passages.
That is your Achilles Heel.

I am unaware of this doctrine of epignosis; please explain it to me.

 

[farouk]

How does 1 John 5:13 teach what you are trying to espouse?

I looked at all of your verses, and here is my response:

If you will read the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, Luke 8:4-15), I believe that you will see that there are three types of ground that do not produce fruit. In one, the person believes for a while, and when persecution comes, they fall away. Another type of ground, the fruit is choked out by the weeds of the temptations of this world. But the good soil produces fruit with persevering patience.

I posit to you that it is only the good soil, in the parable, that can avail ourselves of the promises of scripture found in John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, etc. These promises are promises of eternal security for the believer, whether you like it or not. But they only apply to Jesus' sheep, whom He knows (John 10:27). And those whom He knows are not workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23).

So if someone claims to be a Christian in front of you and falls away later, they were very likely never one of Jesus' sheep. Because it is promised to Jesus' sheep that they shall never perish. Also they shall not come into condemnation.

A person can have a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith (and thus be in the faith); but not have a living and saving faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10, 1 John 3:7); a faith that is of the heart.

It is only those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness, who are the good soil in the parable and who can avail themselves of the aforementioned promises on eternal security.

Scriptures to ponder:

2 Peter 1:3-4;

Hebrews 11:33;

2 Corinthians 1:20;

Romans 4:20-22.

Good post! :)

 

[justbyfaith]

Good post! :)

I've partaken of long threads on the subject!

 

[farouk]

I've partaken of long threads on the subject!

Ohm well; the issues are not new...there is plenty of Scripture for both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

 

[BreadOfLife]

How does 1 John 5:13 teach what you are trying to espouse?

I looked at all of your verses, and here is my response:

If you will read the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-23, Mark 4:1-20, Luke 8:4-15), I believe that you will see that there are three types of ground that do not produce fruit. In one, the person believes for a while, and when persecution comes, they fall away. Another type of ground, the fruit is choked out by the weeds of the temptations of this world. But the good soil produces fruit with persevering patience.

I posit to you that it is only the good soil, in the parable, that can avail ourselves of the promises of scripture found in John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, etc. These promises are promises of eternal security for the believer, whether you like it or not. But they only apply to Jesus' sheep, whom He knows (John 10:27). And those whom He knows are not workers of iniquity (Matthew 7:23).

So if someone claims to be a Christian in front of you and falls away later, they were very likely never one of Jesus' sheep. Because it is promised to Jesus' sheep that they shall never perish (John 10:28). Also they shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24 (kjv)).

A person can have a mental assent to the doctrines of the faith (and thus be in the faith); but not have a living and saving faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10, 1 John 3:7); a faith that is of the heart.

It is only those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness, who are the good soil in the parable and who can avail themselves of the aforementioned promises on eternal security.

Scriptures to ponder:
2 Peter 1:3-4;
Hebrews 11:33;
2 Corinthians 1:20;
Romans 4:20-22.

You’re doing it AGAIN.

You have completely IGNORED the reality of EPIGNOSIS in the verses I presented. As I showed you earlier - and in several posts – EPINOSIS in these verses in NOT simply a “mental assent” as you erroneously posit.
It is a FULL, experiential and RELATIONAL knowledge – like a person would have for their spouse.

The verses I presented show people with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ in danger of falling back into in and LOSING everything. This completely obliterates the false doctrine of OSAS.

The Bible is adamant about the fact that we can have it ALL – and LOSE it all by our OWN doing.
The idea that we can’t is man-made hogwash.

 

[justbyfaith]

You’re doing it AGAIN.

You have completely IGNORED the reality of EPIGNOSIS in the verses I presented. As I showed you earlier - and in several posts – EPINOSIS in these verses in NOT simply a “mental assent” as you erroneously posit.
It is a FULL, experiential and RELATIONAL knowledge – like a person would have for their spouse.

The verses I presented show people with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ in danger of falling back into in and LOSING everything. This completely obliterates the false doctrine of OSAS.

The Bible is adamant about the fact that we can have it ALL – and LOSE it all by our OWN doing.
The idea that we can’t is man-made hogwash.

Indeed...for Jesus was a Man.

He taught us that those of us who are in Him shall not come into condemnation...John 5:24...we shall never perish...John 10:28.

So if someone with an experiential knowledge of Christ can fall away, then when they fall away they must retain their salvation, as one man posited in a long thread at a different message board...this is the only conclusion that I can make at this point (as heretical as it might sound) when understanding what the scripture says in all of these things...actually taking into my mind and heart the understanding of each verse as it stands as scriptural truth.

Because the only way to defeat his position was to make a distinction between heart faith and mental assent...based on the fact that the person whose seed was planted on shallow ground believed only for a while and then fell away (Luke 8:11)...and that he who believes on the Lord (i.e. is one of Jesus' sheep) hath everlasting life...John 6:47.

But I don't expect you to get it unless you think long and hard about what each of these things means in light of each other thing.

I don't want to turn this into a longer thread than it already is...so maybe you should start a new one discussing how epignosis does or does not translate into a person (who believes) retaining his salvation after falling away...because you have now provided the missing piece of the puzzle that convinces me of this even though it goes against what I find to be upright as doctrine.

Because the fact of the matter is that Jesus' sheep shall never perish...and therefore if this is speaking of those with epignosis and you believe, based on scripture (?), that Jesus' sheep can perish...then there is a contradiction in the word that I can't reconcile....so I am asking you to reconcile it for me.

1) those with epignosis (experiential knowledge) can perish.

2) Jesus' sheep shall never perish (John 10:28).

=

contradiction!

Because I consider that Jesus' sheep are those with epignosis.

What is your answer to this?

 

[justbyfaith]

What scriptures indicate that a person with epignosis can fall away? In those scriptures, what is the English word translated from the Greek word epignosis?

I have never heard of this, and want to be as a Berean on the matter (Acts of the Apostles 17:11).

For if you can give me the scripture references, I have a Strong's Concordance and can look it up quite easily.

 

[justbyfaith]

The definition for epignosis in the Strong's Concordance is:

1922. epignosis: from 1921; recognition, i.e. (by impl.) full discernment, acknowledgement: --(ac-)knowledge(-ing, -ment)

1921. epignosko:, from 1909 and 1097; to know upon some mark. i.e. recognize: by impl.) to become fully acquainted with. to acknowledge--(ac-, have, take) know (-ledge, well), perceive.

1909. epi: a primary prep. prop. meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the gen.) i.e. over, upon, etc. of rest (with the dat.) at, on, etc. of direction (with the acc.) toward, upon, etc.--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, x having charge of, (be- (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of (up-) on (behalf of), over, (by,for) the space of, through (-out), (un-)to(-ward), In compounds it retains essentially the same import., at, upon, etc. (lit. or fig.)

1097. ginosko: a prol. form of a primary verb to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many impl. (as follow, with others not clearly expressed)--allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) knowledge, perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

This definition can indeed include mere mental assent.

As opposed to what I would call true experiential knowledge, a heart faith (Romans 10:10).

 

[justbyfaith]

NONSENSE.

Until you can address the verses I presented earlier - you have NO CASE.
"Epignosis" is Kryptonite to your case . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[justbyfaith]

NONSENSE.

1 Corinthians 1:18. 1 Corinthians 1:21.

Again with the cherry-picking - and again with the perverted doctrine of OSAS.

Your response indicates that you couldn't have possibly even looked up the verses.

If you do not want to have an intelligent, two-sided discussion then perhaps we shouldn't argue just to prove our own point without looking at the other side of the issue.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Indeed...for Jesus was a Man.

He taught us that those of us who are in Him shall not come into condemnation...John 5:24...we shall never perish...John 10:28.

So if someone with an experiential knowledge of Christ can fall away, then when they fall away they must retain their salvation, as one man posited in a long thread at a different message board...this is the only conclusion that I can make at this point (as heretical as it might sound) when understanding what the scripture says in all of these things...actually taking into my mind and heart the understanding of each verse as it stands as scriptural truth.

Because the only way to defeat his position was to make a distinction between heart faith and mental assent...based on the fact that the person whose seed was planted on shallow ground believed only for a while and then fell away (Luke 8:11)...and that he who believes on the Lord (i.e. is one of Jesus' sheep) hath everlasting life...John 6:47.

But I don't expect you to get it unless you think long and hard about what each of these things means in light of each other thing.

I don't want to turn this into a longer thread than it already is...so maybe you should start a new one discussing how epignosis does or does not translate into a person (who believes) retaining his salvation after falling away...because you have now provided the missing piece of the puzzle that convinces me of this even though it goes against what I find to be upright as doctrine.

Because the fact of the matter is that Jesus' sheep shall never perish...and therefore if this is speaking of those with epignosis and you believe, based on scripture (?), that Jesus' sheep can perish...then there is a contradiction in the word that I can't reconcile....so I am asking you to reconcile it for me.

1) those with epignosis (experiential knowledge) can perish.

2) Jesus' sheep shall never perish (John 10:28).
=contradiction!
Because I consider that Jesus' sheep are those with epignosis.
What is your answer to this?

Cherry-picking Scripture as YOU do NEVER works. People like YOU are the reason that atheists often claim that the Bible contradicts itself. Let me assure you and them – it DOESN’T.

For example – OSAS adherents are fond of cherry-picking Rom. 10:13, which says , “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

HOWEVER, when we read Matt. 7:21, Jesus stated emphatically, "NOT EVERYONE who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven."

When you read the Bible in CONTEXT – you see that NOT every verse is absolute because there are other verses that give it its FULL meaning. The problem with People like YOU is that you build perverse doctrines around contextually unsupported verses.

This is what you are doing with ALL of these verses. You are IGNORING all of the verses that show them in context. You have also completely ignored “EPIGNOSIS”, which shoes the context of the verses that I presented. These verses show that even those with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ can LOSE it all by their own doing.

As I stated earlier – CONTEXT is Kryptonite to Calvinists . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The definition for epignosis in the Strong's Concordance is:

1922. epignosis: from 1921; recognition, i.e. (by impl.) full discernment, acknowledgement: --(ac-)knowledge(-ing, -ment)

1921. epignosko:, from 1909 and 1097; to know upon some mark. i.e. recognize: by impl.) to become fully acquainted with. to acknowledge--(ac-, have, take) know (-ledge, well), perceive.

1909. epi: a primary prep. prop. meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the gen.) i.e. over, upon, etc. of rest (with the dat.) at, on, etc. of direction (with the acc.) toward, upon, etc.--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, x having charge of, (be- (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of (up-) on (behalf of), over, (by,for) the space of, through (-out), (un-)to(-ward), In compounds it retains essentially the same import., at, upon, etc. (lit. or fig.)

1097. ginosko: a prol. form of a primary verb to "know" (absolutely) in a great variety of applications and with many impl. (as follow, with others not clearly expressed)--allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) knowledge, perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

This definition can indeed include mere mental assent.

As opposed to what I would call true experiential knowledge, a heart faith (Romans 10:10).

I ALREADY gave you several Protestant sources on the definition of Epignosis, INCLUDING Strong's.
Pay special attention to the ones in RED . . .

EPIGNOSIS
Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary
C2. Know, Known, Knowledge, Unknown [Noun] epignosis akin to epiginosko, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition," and is a strengthened form of gnosis, expressing a fuller or a full "knowledge," a greater participation by the "knower" in the object "known," thus more powerfully influencing him. It is not found in the Gospels and Acts. Paul uses it 15 times (16 if Heb 10:26 is included) out of the 20 occurrences; Peter 4 times, all in his 2nd Epistle. Contrast Rom. 1:28 (epignosis) with the simple verb in Rom 1:21. "In all the four Epistles of the first Roman captivity it is an element in the Apostle's opening prayer for his correspondents' well-being, Php 1:9; Eph 1:17; Col 1:9; Php 1:6" (Lightfoot).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
epignōsis
1) precise and correct knowledge
1a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

Strong's #1922: epignosis (pronounced ep-ig'-no-sis)
from 1921; recognition, i.e. full discernment, acknowledgement:--(ac-)knowledge(-ing, - ment).

R. H. Strachan, "The Second Epistle General of Peter," The Expositor's Greek Testament, W. Robertson Nicoll, editor (Grand Rapids: Wm.B. Eerdmans, 1951), V, 127. ans 1: 9. Citing Chrysostom, Justin Martyr, and 1 Corinthians 13: 12, he concludes:

“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger, more thorough knowledge ... Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge.”6

John Macarthur (The Master’s Seminary Journal)
Gnosis gives place to epignosis—faith to rational conviction— and we rest in the joyful and unshaken certainty that we possess a Bible written by the hands of man indeed, but also graven with the finger of God.

The Doctrine of Epignosis (Wenstrom Ministries)
A. The noun epignosis comes from the ginosko word group:
1. Ginosko (ginwskw) (verb), “to know personally, intimately and experientially.”
2. Gnosis (gnosi$) (noun), “knowledge that is the intelligent comprehension but is not personal and experiential.”
3. Epignosis(epignosiv$) (noun), “intimate, personal, experiential knowledge.”

D. Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

E. He goes on to say on the same page, “ALL PAUL’S USES OF EPIGNOSIS JUSTIFY AND BEAR OUT THIS DISTINCTION. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

M. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God

2. CHRISTIAN FAITH

N. Epignosis … in the Greek New Testament:
2. Experientialknowledge (of God and Christ).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your response indicates that you couldn't have possibly even looked up the verses.

If you do not want to have an intelligent, two-sided discussion then perhaps we shouldn't argue just to prove our own point without looking at the other side of the issue.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself - no matter HOW desperately YOU try . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

Cherry-picking Scripture as YOU do NEVER works. People like YOU are the reason that atheists often claim that the Bible contradicts itself. Let me assure you and them – it DOESN’T.

For example – OSAS adherents are fond of cherry-picking Rom. 10:13, which says , “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

HOWEVER, when we read Matt. 7:21, Jesus stated emphatically, "NOT EVERYONE who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father who is in heaven."

When you read the Bible in CONTEXT – you see that NOT every verse is absolute because there are other verses that give it its FULL meaning. The problem with People like YOU is that you build perverse doctrines around contextually unsupported verses.

This is what you are doing with ALL of these verses. You are IGNORING all of the verses that show them in context. You have also completely ignored “EPIGNOSIS”, which shoes the context of the verses that I presented. These verses show that even those with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ can LOSE it all by their own doing.

As I stated earlier – CONTEXT is Kryptonite to Calvinists . . .

I have found that in all of my reading of the Bible, I have never found a scripture that truly contradicts any other scripture. There is always a reconciliation.

You should consider that the Holy Ghost teaches us when we compare spiritual thing with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv))...when we compare scripture to scripture.

Every scripture verse stands on its own as a bastion of biblical truth...and when scripture seems to contradict other scripture, there is always an answer that compromises the reality of neither scripture. God the Holy Ghost in this way hides His more valuable insights from those people who would reject Him (the kind who say that there are contradictions in the Bible and give up on reading: who never keep going in order to find their reconciliations in scripture).

For example, in the seeming contradiction that you have presented, it is easily reconciled through 2 Corinthians 5:17--Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away: behold, all things are become new.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13)...and this does not contradict Matthew 7:21 because when ever anyone truly calls on the name of the Lord (not merely giving Him lip service...Matthew 15:8), they are made into a new creature in Christ...their inclinations are changed so that they will do the will of the Father by nature...see also Ezekiel 36:25-27.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you: and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[justbyfaith]

However please answer this:

Indeed...for Jesus was a Man.

He taught us that those of us who are in Him shall not come into condemnation...John 5:24...we shall never perish...John 10:28.

So if someone with an experiential knowledge of Christ can fall away, then when they fall away they must retain their salvation, as one man posited in a long thread at a different message board...this is the only conclusion that I can make at this point (as heretical as it might sound) when understanding what the scripture says in all of these things...actually taking into my mind and heart the understanding of each verse as it stands as scriptural truth.

Because the only way to defeat his position was to make a distinction between heart faith and mental assent...based on the fact that the person whose seed was planted on shallow ground believed only for a while and then fell away (Luke 8:11)...and that he who believes on the Lord (i.e. is one of Jesus' sheep) hath everlasting life...John 6:47.

But I don't expect you to get it unless you think long and hard about what each of these things means in light of each other thing.

I don't want to turn this into a longer thread than it already is...so maybe you should start a new one discussing how epignosis does or does not translate into a person (who believes) retaining his salvation after falling away...because you have now provided the missing piece of the puzzle that convinces me of this even though it goes against what I find to be upright as doctrine.

Because the fact of the matter is that Jesus' sheep shall never perish...and therefore if this is speaking of those with epignosis and you believe, based on scripture (?), that Jesus' sheep can perish...then there is a contradiction in the word that I can't reconcile....so I am asking you to reconcile it for me.

1) those with epignosis (experiential knowledge) can perish.

2) Jesus' sheep shall never perish (John 10:28).

=

contradiction!

Because I consider that Jesus' sheep are those with epignosis.

What is your answer to this?

 

[justbyfaith]

I ALREADY gave you several Protestant sources on the definition of Epignosis, INCLUDING Strong's.
Pay special attention to the ones in RED . . .

EPIGNOSIS
Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary
C2. Know, Known, Knowledge, Unknown [Noun] epignosis akin to epiginosko, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition," and is a strengthened form of gnosis, expressing a fuller or a full "knowledge," a greater participation by the "knower" in the object "known," thus more powerfully influencing him. It is not found in the Gospels and Acts. Paul uses it 15 times (16 if Heb 10:26 is included) out of the 20 occurrences; Peter 4 times, all in his 2nd Epistle. Contrast Rom. 1:28 (epignosis) with the simple verb in Rom 1:21. "In all the four Epistles of the first Roman captivity it is an element in the Apostle's opening prayer for his correspondents' well-being, Php 1:9; Eph 1:17; Col 1:9; Php 1:6" (Lightfoot).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
epignōsis
1) precise and correct knowledge
1a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine

Strong's #1922: epignosis (pronounced ep-ig'-no-sis)
from 1921; recognition, i.e. full discernment, acknowledgement:--(ac-)knowledge(-ing, - ment).

R. H. Strachan, "The Second Epistle General of Peter," The Expositor's Greek Testament, W. Robertson Nicoll, editor (Grand Rapids: Wm.B. Eerdmans, 1951), V, 127. ans 1: 9. Citing Chrysostom, Justin Martyr, and 1 Corinthians 13: 12, he concludes:

“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger, more thorough knowledge ... Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge.”6

John Macarthur (The Master’s Seminary Journal)
Gnosis gives place to epignosis—faith to rational conviction— and we rest in the joyful and unshaken certainty that we possess a Bible written by the hands of man indeed, but also graven with the finger of God.

The Doctrine of Epignosis (Wenstrom Ministries)
A. The noun epignosis comes from the ginosko word group:
1. Ginosko (ginwskw) (verb), “to know personally, intimately and experientially.”
2. Gnosis (gnosi$) (noun), “knowledge that is the intelligent comprehension but is not personal and experiential.”
3. Epignosis(epignosiv$) (noun), “intimate, personal, experiential knowledge.”

D. Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

E. He goes on to say on the same page, “ALL PAUL’S USES OF EPIGNOSIS JUSTIFY AND BEAR OUT THIS DISTINCTION. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

M. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God

2. CHRISTIAN FAITH

N. Epignosis … in the Greek New Testament:
2. Experientialknowledge (of God and Christ).

If those with epignosis are capable of falling away, then epignosis cannot mean a heart faith (Romans 10:10) although it may be an intellectual assent to the reality of the Holy Bible that is with certainty.

Because John 6:47 says that those who believe on Christ have everlasting life. John 5:24 says that they shall not come into condemnation. And John 10:28 says that they shall never perish.

And yet, there is a person in scripture who believes only for a while and then falls away (see Luke 8:13). Does this person have epignosis?

If so, then there must be an even greater type of faith (impaho, a heart faith that is unto righteousness, Romans 10:10) that brings application to the scriptures I have mentioned above (John 6:47, John 5:24, John 10:28).

 

[justbyfaith]

NONSENSE.

1 Corinthians 1:18. 1 Corinthians 1:21.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself - no matter HOW desperately YOU try . . .

You still didn't look up the verses, I see...

 

[justbyfaith]

There is a type of faith that doesn't save (James 2:14-17). I consider that this is a certain mental assent to the tenets of the gospel, that does not change the person's life, based on what I have learned so far.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't know if this is a word of knowledge or anything...but is there someone in your life who got saved; and you resent the fact that they got saved, and want them to fall away?

@BreadOfLife

 

[BreadOfLife]

However please answer this:

justbyfaith said: ↑
Indeed...for Jesus was a Man.
He taught us that those of us who are in Him shall not come into condemnation...John 5:24...weshall never perish...John 10:28.

So if someone with an experiential knowledge of Christ can fall away, then when they fall away they must retain their salvation, as one man posited in a long thread at a different message board...this is the only conclusion that I can make at this point (as heretical as it might sound) when understanding what the scripture says in all of these things...actually taking into my mind and heart the understanding of each verse as it stands as scriptural truth.

Because the only way to defeat his position was to make a distinction between heart faith and mental assent...based on the fact that the person whose seed was planted on shallow ground believed only for a while and then fell away (Luke 8:11)...and that he who believes on the Lord (i.e. is one of Jesus' sheep) hatheverlasting life...John 6:47.

But I don't expect you to get it unless you think long and hard about what each of these things means in light of each other thing.

I don't want to turn this into a longer thread than it already is...so maybe you should start a new one discussing how epignosis does or does not translate into a person (who believes) retaining his salvation after falling away...because you have now provided the missing piece of the puzzle that convinces me of this even though it goes against what I find to be upright as doctrine.

Because the fact of the matter is that Jesus' sheep shall neverperish...and therefore if this is speaking of those with epignosis and you believe, based on scripture (?), that Jesus' sheep can perish...then there is a contradiction in the word that I can't reconcile....so I am asking you to reconcile it for me.

1) those with epignosis (experiential knowledge) can perish.

2) Jesus' sheep shall neverperish (John 10:28).

contradiction!
Because I consider that Jesus' sheep are those with epignosis.

What is your answer to this?

I already answered this.
It’s NONSENSE – and it’s NOT what the Bible teaches.

What YOU’VE done is to cherry-pick certain verses OUT of their proper context – then you completely ignore the stipulations surrounding them. For example – YOU posted:

“He taught us that those of us who are in Him shall not come into condemnation...John 5:24...we shall never perish...John 10:28.”

NOWHERE does this imply that we cannot lose our secure place. It simply states the obvious – that those who are IN CHRIST will not be condemned and shall never perish. It doesn’t mention what happens to those who FALL AWAY from Christ like the following verses (Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22, Matt. 5:13, 1 Cor. 9:27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

As for “EPIGNOSIS” – you have completely FAILED to understand that as well.
AS I have repeatedly explained to you – using PROTESTANT sources – Epignosis is a full, experiential and relational knowledge – not unlike a person had of their spouse. One Protestant definition referred to it as “CHRISTIAN FAITH”.

You CANNOT escape the fact that the verses I provided describe born again Christians with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ – and the danger of falling away and LOSING their secure position.

NOBODY can “snatch” you out of God’s hand. Only YOU can walk away from Him.