Eternal Security

[GodsGrace]

Please stop with the games....show me where you get this unconditional notion.

It's not a game.
But if you don't want to learn about covenants, that's fine with me.
I just thought it might be a nice discussion with you.
No problem.

 

[gadar perets]

No, the Scripture is telling you that. Israel will be brought once again under the Law. The Church is a separate Body of believers. Nothing is unclean for her to eat. And she will not keep any certain days.

The Jews will eventually have their blindness lifted and will receive Yeshua as their Savior and King. They will be part of the Kingdom just as Christians will. The Kingdom will NOT be divided, but one set of the laws will be the standard by which the Kingdom is governed and all will be subject to those laws.

But you do not obey the Law. It always says to you...guilty.

That is the function of the law; to point out sin. Without the law we don't know we are sinning. Satan knows this which is why he has deceived Christians into believing the law no longer exists. No law, no sin, no need of repentance. Diabolical indeed!

Yet Scripture says He became the Son of the Father at the resurrection, not the incarnation. (Acts 13:33) Yet He was the Son before that. (John 3:16) How? Because He always existed as the Son with the Father.

Stranger

I agree about his resurrection and Acts 13:33. That refers to his being born again literally (his second birth). He also became YHWH's Son at his first birth. The Son did not exist prior to his earthly birth except in the mind/plan of YHWH.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually there are quite a few here, and on other forums, who deny the deity of Christ. Some even go so far as to say He is "a god", as though there are others gods floating around. The only other gods are demons, who are worshiped as idols throughout the pagan world, and who do exercise demonic powers.

Several places but let's focus on one passage which I have not referred to before:

JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Could you, or I, or any other person make this claim?

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Could you, or I, or any other person make this claim?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Could you, or I, or any other person make this claim?

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Could you, or I, or any other person make this claim?

In addition to this Jesus called Himself "I AM" in John 8. "I AM" (or I AM THAT I AM) is the personal name of the Almighty God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. See Exodus 3.

I also never thought of John 14:1
@Rollo Tamasi also listed the following which I liked:
Titus 2:13
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

 

[gadar perets]

If you are not a Christian, it is not because Christians don't accept you. It is because you were never born-again.

Here it comes. You can't refute my doctrines so you attack me personally. The true Christian way. Self exaltation. Sick.

Your problems are 'Who Jesus is' and 'wanting to follow the Law'. If one does not believe in the real Jesus, has he been saved? islam believes in Jesus, but not the Jesus of the Bible. Are they saved?

So I'm not born again and I'm not saved. Does that make you feel better?

 

[Episkopos]

It's not a game.
But if you don't want to learn about covenants, that's fine with me.
I just thought it might be a nice discussion with you.
No problem.

it is only a discussion if we both participate...kind of like a covenant being 2 ways and all. :)

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6:44 indeed has everything to do with our discussion. Without the drawing or prodding of God the publican will NEVER have cried out: “have mercy on this sinner!” This is the reason God manifested Himself to become man (second Adam) to undo the work of Satan, and to go to the cross to free man of sins.

If God does not intervene in the lives of mankind, all will end up in hell, no exceptions! But in His love, mercy, and grace, still He wanted to have a miserable group of people who are by nature sinners, but as I’ve already stated, God had to pay a tremendous price by sending His only Son to die on the cross. What an Awesome God!!!.

With this type of love, mercy, grace and sacrifice, don’t you think He is sovereign to save those He wishes to elect to salvation before the foundation of the world, and also seen in the story of Jacob and Esau?



Based on nothing??? Why cry out to Him??? What an audacity thing to say!!! You show no respect for the God who created you, loved you, and saved you (if you are His at all! FYI, there is no Scripture that stipulates God chooses people to go to hell. Man go to hell because they are sinners....The wages of sin is death! The unsaved go to hell because of their sins and NOT because they were chosen to stand for the fires of hell.



Firstly, let’s get it straight. I didn’t say I said it. Secondly, it was God who said it. Big
difference.



Without the drawing of God and I repeat, without the drawing of God IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO BECOME SAVED!



Not quite at all. Mankind is headed for the slaughter house. The principle thing to do then is to cry out for mercy!

For example...

Here is a king who sent out an edict (any edict). His subjects did not agree and rebelled. Guess what? The king put the whole lot in the dungeon to await the guillotine. Soon after, he hears cries of “mercy, have mercy O king!

The king with great love and compassion for his subjects went to the dungeon and started to choose a person here and another there, and after selecting a few told the guards to set free the few.

In this example, think of the king as portraying God and the rebels as sinners!

To God Be The Glory

it is only a discussion if we both participate...kind of like a covenant being 2 ways and all. :)

LOL
Not all covenants are two ways!

 

[Episkopos]

LOL
Not all covenants are two ways!

So far our conversations have been me providing textual evidence from the bible and you responding with your opinions in bolded text...with the idea that whoever posts more (and with bigger letters) is proved right. Am I missing something here? I don't think truth works that way.

We have been talking about the NC. I am not interested in the rainbow covenant and such...maybe if this was about covenants only....but this is a rabbit trail...

 

[Stranger]

The Jews will eventually have their blindness lifted and will receive Yeshua as their Savior and King. They will be part of the Kingdom just as Christians will. The Kingdom will NOT be divided, but one set of the laws will be the standard by which the Kingdom is governed and all will be subject to those laws.


That is the function of the law; to point out sin. Without the law we don't know we are sinning. Satan knows this which is why he has deceived Christians into believing the law no longer exists. No law, no sin, no need of repentance. Diabolical indeed!


I agree about his resurrection and Acts 13:33. That refers to his being born again literally (his second birth). He also became YHWH's Son at his first birth. The Son did not exist prior to his earthly birth except in the mind/plan of YHWH.

Where does that leave you? You are not part of either...you say? The Kingdom will be made up of saved Gentile nations, saved Israel, and saved Church. Israel will be under the Law, but the Church is never under the Law.

Christians don't need the Law to know they are sinning. Again, the book of Hebrews says to you that you are in the A,B, C's. Elementary things. You need to grow up and move on. You're trying to stay in first grade.

(Acts 13:33) refers to Jesus being begotten of God. He was not begotten of God at the Virgin birth. He was simply the Son. Your wrong view of the Deity of Jesus Christ moves you away from being a Messianic Jew. You are not a Jew, as you have admitted. This makes you a Gentile who wants to be a Messianic Jew yet denies the Deity of Jesus Christ. A strange place.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Here it comes. You can't refute my doctrines so you attack me personally. The true Christian way. Self exaltation. Sick.


So I'm not born again and I'm not saved. Does that make you feel better?

Your 'doctrines' make no sense. Pay attention. I said 'If' you are not a Christian, this is what you claim, then it is because you are not 'born-again'. If you are 'born-again' you are a Christian.

So, up to this point, you are not Jewish, not Christian, not Messianic Christian. All by your own words.

I asked you two questions. If one does not believe in the Jesus of the Bible, but another Jesus, is he saved? Are muslims saved as they too believe in Jesus?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

So far our conversations have been me providing textual evidence from the bible and you responding with your opinions in bolded text...with the idea that whoever posts more (and with bigger letters) is proved right. Am I missing something here? I don't think truth works that way.

We have been talking about the NC. I am not interested in the rainbow covenant and such...maybe if this was about covenants only....but this is a rabbit trail...

You don't believe me E, so maybe you'd believe someone else.
If you look up the mosaic Covenant and tell me if it's conditional or unconditional, it would be a start for you.

Also, you say EVERY covenant is two-ways.
Could you also look up the Adamic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant and tell me if it's a unilateral or a bilateral covenant?

This IS a conversation...but you're not being agreeable...if you WOULD BE you'd learn something new.

Sorry for the bold...

 

[Episkopos]

You don't believe me E, so maybe you'd believe someone else.
If you look up the mosaic Covenant and tell me if it's conditional or unconditional, it would be a start for you.

Also, you say EVERY covenant is two-ways.
Could you also look up the Adamic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant and tell me if it's a unilateral or a bilateral covenant?

This IS a conversation...but you're not being agreeable...if you WOULD BE you'd learn something new.

Sorry for the bold...

Again..we are talking about the new covenant. You said that it was unconditional. You have yet to show WHY you think that. You are VERY hard to speak with as you ignore points and just steamroll your agendas and opinions. Try answering line by line.

 

[gadar perets]

I asked you two questions. If one does not believe in the Jesus of the Bible, but another Jesus, is he saved? Are muslims saved as they too believe in Jesus?

1) No.
2) I leave that to YHWH to decide.

 

[Stranger]

1) No.
2) I leave that to YHWH to decide.

The Jesus you present is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus islam presents is not the Jesus of the Bible.

What now?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Also, you say EVERY covenant is two-ways.
Could you also look up the Adamic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant and the New Covenant and tell me if it's a unilateral or a bilateral covenant?

I believe the NC is bilateral and conditional.

Yahweh’s Part
Yahweh will write His laws in the new hearts of His people (Jer 31:33; Ezek 36:26).
Yahweh will cause His people to “know” Him far deeper than they have ever known Him before (Jer 31:34).
Yahweh will forgive the sins of His people (Jer 31:34; Ezek 36:25).
Yahweh will dwell in the hearts of His people by putting His Holy Spirit within them (Ezek 36:26-27).
Yahweh will cause His people to keep His statutes and judgments through the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ezek 36:27; John 16:13).
Yahweh will give His people the promised land (Ezek 36:24; 37:26).
Yahweh will multiply His people once they are in the land (Ezek 37:26).
Yahweh will dwell in His sanctuary / temple which will be in the midst of His people (Ezek 37:26-28).

Man’s Part
1) Man must confess the Master Yeshua and believe in his resurrection – “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Master Yeshua, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” (Romans 10:9-10).

 

[gadar perets]

The Jesus you present is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus islam presents is not the Jesus of the Bible.

What now?

Stranger

The Yeshua I present is the Messiah of Scripture, but who is misrepresented by Christians. You have turned him into a God/Man who teaches his people its OK to break God's laws because they no longer apply. What now? Christians need to reexamine their teachings and return to the true apostolic faith of the first century.

 

[Stranger]

The Yeshua I present is the Messiah of Scripture, but who is misrepresented by Christians. You have turned him into a God/Man who teaches his people its OK to break God's laws because they no longer apply. What now? Christians need to reexamine their teachings and return to the true apostolic faith of the first century.

First of all, no has ever said it is ok to break God's laws. What I have said, is we, the Christian, are not under the Law. We do not try and please God, or walk with Him, in accordance to the Law. The Mosaic Law does not apply as it cannot reach us who are in Christ.

That Jesus is the God/Man is clear from Scripture. To deny Him that is to make Him 'another Jesus'. (John 17:5) "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (Acts 20:28) "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.""

The God/Man Jesus Christ.

Stanger

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agree with Paul. To seek to be justified by law instead of by faith is to fall from grace. Messianics do not believe they are justified by law. That, again, is the Christian view of us in order to justify their own lawlessness.

14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

 

[gadar perets]

14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

That verse applies to unbelieving Jews, not believing Messianics.

 

[gadar perets]

First of all, no has ever said it is ok to break God's laws. What I have said, is we, the Christian, are not under the Law.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that mean to you that when the law says, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy ...", you do not have to do what it says? That you are free to treat it like any other day and work all you want on it?

The Mosaic Law does not apply as it cannot reach us who are in Christ.

What does that mean?

That Jesus is the God/Man is clear from Scripture. To deny Him that is to make Him 'another Jesus'. (John 17:5) "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

The glory Yeshua had was in YHWH's plan as the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. The man Yeshua was asking his Father to bring that plan to fruition. The Father answered Yeshua's prayer and the Son was put to death.

(Acts 20:28) "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.""

That is the translation of one Greek text. Other Greek texts read differently. The manuscript evidence supports the reading tou haimatios tou idiou, literally, the blood of His own (Son), and not idiou haimatios, “his own blood.” God paid for our salvation with the blood of His own Son, Yeshua.

The text note at the bottom of the trinitarian NIV Study Bible gets the meaning of the verse correct: “his own blood. Lit. ‘the blood of his own one,’ a term of endearment (such as ‘his own dear one’) referring to His own Son.”

 

[Truth]

I agree on this last point, but their failure simply meant death for them and their offspring... not, eternal torment, as some believe. Anyone who does not get Life simply remains dead forever. We had nothing and we remain with nothing. Or actually if we receive anything good for the time allotted to us we have that.


No condemnation. That is simply a word to help us understand our choices. We are condemned to death if we don't have Life, but everyone without Life is dead. Nothing new here. The new would be for anyone who has chosen Life.


Again in this you relate to punishment. The punishment, if we want to call it that is already in effect. It is death. Everyone born to woman is born dead. They never had Life so they have nothing to lose by choosing God while they have much to gain.


No punishment. Only death which is really nothingness if it is anything.


They cannot be 'un-son-ed'? We are not talking about natural born children. We are talking about the children of God. There is a type or a shadow but they are definitely not the same. Who are God's children? Was not Israel God's son? Were not the children of Abraham his sons?

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." John 8:39-42

When a person stops doing the works of Abraham does he not cease to be Abraham's son? This is not speaking of Abraham's natural children by Sarah or Hagar. That is the type or shadow.

The real thing is the children of God rather than the children of the devil. Can a person be born of God and do godly works and then stop those works and do instead devilish works? What did Adam and Eve do? Was not Adam a son of God? [Luke 3:38] Did not Adam effectively make himself a child of the devil? Adam took the chastisement so he remained a son of God, but what of any of his children who would not... such as Cain?

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:7-8


The loss of salvation would occur if the prodigal after being forgiven and renewed chose to return to the pigsty. He would not have chosen directly there, but that would have been the result would it not?

Long ago, I ran away from my mother's home. I took my money out of my bank account and went from California to New York City to live my new life all alone. It took me not long to realize this is not what I thought it would be. I went back home and was welcomed with open loving arms. Could I have left again if I had so desired?


Yet the children of Israel did just that. Saved from the bondage of Egypt and in spite of many repentances and backsliding the end result for all but 2 was death in the wilderness. Did God put that story of them in scripture only for them... or was it also a warning to us?

That was Good, Really Good! Through your statement I am Almost completely convinced, I have never held to OSAS, what good is the Salt that has lost it's Savor ? Again good response!