Understanding Divine Prosperity

[emekrus]

If I may I will point out a few errors in your preaching.

One. I have been a christian for 65 years and been through the prosperity gospel, so I can say without regret, that what is important is where the rubber hits the road.

The prosperity gospel benefits mainly those that teach it. Usually you give to me so that I can be prosperous. Don't take my word for it. Look at those who are prospering i.e Kenneth Copeland with his $65 million dollar jet so he does not have to sit next to someone who might affect his ability to pray.

Two. God does not have a prosperity agenda for his church. He has a suffering agenda for his church because they are the churches that advance the Kingdom.

Three. Joel. Who was he writing to? The children of Zion. They are not the church.

Four. There is no instruction about tithing in the New Testament. We are told to give as God has blessed us and that will be different for each one.

Five. There is nothing about prosperity in God's covenant with us.

Six. Exodus 23 was written to unregenerate Jews.

Seven. If we are not supposed to spend God'supposed financial blessing on ourselves, what are you going to say to Kenneth Copeland spending $65 million on a personal jet?

Eight. I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says how you spend your money can land you in hell.

Nine. 2 Cor. 9. This passage talks about all sufficiency, not prosperity. It says he has given to the poor. It does not say he had made them prosperous. And what God gives here is grace, not money.

Ten. What we give to ourselves and families and to others is not stipulated in scripture. All we are told is we are responsible for caring for our own.

Eleven. And what is the point of having a $65 million dollar jet so that you can pray without the influence of nonbelievers sitting next to you.

Twelve. If you have millions then you have to lay up treasure on earth contrary to the teaching of scripture.

Thirteen. Nowhere in scripture are you told to give your heart to the Lord.

Fourteen. Giving your heart to the Lord is quite different to being born again.

Fifteen. Nowhere does it say in scripture that you have to place your right hand on your chest.

Sixteen. Your wealth if God decides to give it to you and he may not, will not lead you to hell or heaven.

I see that you are very young and no doubt you have this perception that preaching is where it is at so let me give you some words of advice. The most effective preaching is the way you live. More people have come into the kingdom because of what they saw than what they heard.

And if you intend to exegete scripture, you need to learn how to do that first. That way you won't make a fool of yourself.

P.S. Here is my definition of prosperity. Having enough for your needs and some left over to give to others. If everyone did that, there would be no need to be prosperous.

Brother,

For starters, this is one of my old posts. And I must admit that my current take on divine prosperity has not changed much.

I would want us to start with one of your rebuttal points. specifically point 5. Which says:

There is nothing about prosperity in God's covenant with us.

Below is a quotation of the New Covenant:

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Ezekiel 36:26-30

Sir, above is a citation of the new covenant. And the boldened texts highlight PROSPERITY. What is your take on that?

I will reply to the rest as you answer this one first.

 

[marksman]

Brother,

For starters, this is one of my old posts. And I must admit that my current take on divine prosperity has not changed much.

I would want us to start with one of your rebuttal points. specifically point 5. Which says:

There is nothing about prosperity in God's covenant with us.

Below is a quotation of the New Covenant:

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Ezekiel 36:26-30

Sir, above is a citation of the new covenant. And the boldened texts highlight PROSPERITY. What is your take on that?

I will reply to the rest as you answer this one first.

Simple. it was written to the Jews under the Old Covenant. If you claim this for the church then you have to meet on the Jewish Sabbath.

 

[marksman]

Good post!

Thankyou Nancy.

 

[marksman]

May I ask about Proverbs 23:26 My son, give Me your heart, and let your eyes delight in My ways.

The word son here is talking about a Jewish son as the original is 'ben' which means son of. And in this chapter there are two meanings of the word heart. The first is the one here which means the heart of an individual and the other means a breathing living being.

In v26 it is the individual heart we are talking about, so two things. One is giving one's heart as a Jew will not obtain salvation. And two, You cannot build a doctrine out of one verse of scripture.

 

[emekrus]

Simple. it was written to the Jews under the Old Covenant. If you claim this for the church then you have to meet on the Jewish Sabbath.

The implication of what you are saying is that the preceding verses does not also apply to us.

1). You mean the Church does not have changed hearts yet, only the Jews (as verse 26 says)
2) You mean the Church under the new covenant does not have the Spirit put in them already, only the Jews (as verse 27 says)

Do you agree to the above grave implication of your statements?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Well, folks, I have seen that it's a matter of different point of understanding. In case you don't want to align to God's endtime plan, it is definitely a matter of choice. God does not force anything on anyone. If you think you're better of without the riches, well it is ok. After all, the bible says, if you think your right hand will make you loose eternity, you should cut it off. But as for me and my revelations-I call it my revelation, because, in spite of the fact, that I have been hearing the message for years, I hadn't gotten the personal revelation of it. As I read the particular scripture, which I anchored my sermon on, which is Joel Chapter 2, the Holy Spirit, opened my Spiritual eyes to see God's endtime prosperity plans.

And as such, since, I have the strong conviction of it in my spirit, I'm not going to allow any form of unbelieve, to put me off God's will and plan.

Anyway, folks, as I said before, it is a choice. You can still live in abject Financial poverty, and still make heaven. And at the same time, I still believe if I walk with the Holy Spirit in his end-time prosperity plan, I'll still get there. As a matter of fact, I believe I'm already there by the grace of God through faith. Not that I may be there, I believe I'm there already.

Remain Blessed!

I stand in agreement with you....throughout the Bible God was transferring the wealth of the wicked to the righteous...…..When the Israelites were set free from the Egyptians they took all their wealth with them....God wants us to be the lenders not the borrowers and He wants us to possess the land.

Letting your riches become your idol of worship is what is a sin....as in the person who Jesus told to sell all he had and follow Him.....he quickly revealed what ruled in this man's heart.

 

[marksman]

The implication of what you are saying is that the preceding verses does not also apply to us.

1). You mean the Church does not have changed hearts yet, only the Jews (as verse 26 says)
2) You mean the Church under the new covenant does not have the Spirit put in them already, only the Jews (as verse 27 says)

Do you agree to the above grave implication of your statements?

Sorry, but I do not fall for immature "gotcha" statements. If you want to know what I mean read my previous comment as it contains everything that I mean regarding that passage.

 

[emekrus]

Sorry, but I do not fall for immature "gotcha" statements. If you want to know what I mean read my previous comment as it contains everything that I mean regarding that passage.

And of course, I read it and understood it very well. You said the prosperity section of the new covenant applies to only the Jews and not the church.

And of course, if that statement is to be true, then the implications also has to be true. You know, we must be wholesome in our interpretation of scriptures.

 

[marksman]

And of course, I read it and understood it very well. You said the prosperity section of the new covenant applies to only the Jews and not the church.

And of course, if that statement is to be true, then the implications also has to be true. You know, we must be wholesome in our interpretation of scriptures.

I did not say prosperity section of the New Covenant applies only to the Jews and not the church.

 

[emekrus]

I did not say prosperity section of the New Covenant applies only to the Jews and not the church.

below is a quotation of your exact words:
"Simple. it was written to the Jews under the Old Covenant. If you claim this for the church then you have to meet on the Jewish Sabbath."

If you did not say the prosperity section I emphasised in my quotation applies only to the Jews, and not the Church.

The next implication is that you meant the whole Covenant was only for the Jews under the Old Covenant and not the Church.

I am deducing these from your words above, if I am wrong please prove it.

 

[marksman]

below is a quotation of your exact words:
"Simple. it was written to the Jews under the Old Covenant. If you claim this for the church then you have to meet on the Jewish Sabbath."

If you did not say the prosperity section I emphasised in my quotation applies only to the Jews, and not the Church.

The next implication is that you meant the whole Covenant was only for the Jews under the Old Covenant and not the Church.

I am deducing these from your words above, if I am wrong please prove it.

Simple. Please read what I said. it was written to the Jews under the OLD COVENANT. I never said anything about the new covenant.

 

[emekrus]

Simple. Please read what I said. it was written to the Jews under the OLD COVENANT. I never said anything about the new covenant.

What you are referring to as being written to the Jews under the OLD COVENANT doubles as what is now known as the NEW COVENANT. Hence, by implication you were talking about the NEW COVENANT.

If you don't agree its what is referred to as the NEW COVENANT, could you please help with what you understand as the NEW COVENANT?

P.S please quote the NEW COVENANT from scriptures

 

[marksman]

What you are referring to as being written to the Jews under the OLD COVENANT doubles as what is now known as the NEW COVENANT. Hence, by implication you were talking about the NEW COVENANT.

If you don't agree its what is referred to as the NEW COVENANT, could you please help with what you understand as the NEW COVENANT?

P.S please quote the NEW COVENANT from scriptures

I don't talk by implication. I talk from the facts. I say what I mean and mean what I say.

Tell me, how old are you? 25 maybe? Do you have any formal training like university or bible college? Have you been in leadership of any churches or para church ministries? Have you lectured in Bible College? Have you any experience in senior management of multi million dollar companies? Have you prayed for people to come back from the dead? Have you prayed for people to be delivered from demon oppression? Have you written any books?

I await your answer with interest.

 

[emekrus]

I don't talk by implication. I talk from the facts. I say what I mean and mean what I say.

Tell me, how old are you? 25 maybe? Do you have any formal training like university or bible college? Have you been in leadership of any churches or para church ministries? Have you lectured in Bible College? Have you any experience in senior management of multi million dollar companies? Have you prayed for people to come back from the dead? Have you prayed for people to be delivered from demon oppression? Have you written any books?

I await your answer with interest.

What's the essence of all these questions? What has it got to do with our discussion. I am not here for any other thing more than bible discussion. I am not here to display my achievements. I will only display what the Lord has done for me and through me for the right purposes and the right situations.

I don't strife. But all the same, if you want to know about me and what I am up to, read my signature and profile.

 

[marksman]

What's the essence of all these questions? What has it got to do with our discussion. I am not here for any other thing more than bible discussion. I am not here to display my achievements. I will only display what the Lord has done for me and through me for the right purposes and the right situations.

I don't strife. But all the same, if you want to know about me and what I am up to, read my signature and profile.

Thankyou for answering my question by not answering my question.

 

[emekrus]

Thankyou for answering my question by not answering my question.

You are very welcome Sir.