The Latest on Pre-Trib Rapture

[Naomi25]

I think you well understand what that Rev.3:9 verse is about, and it's timing. It's just that you refuse... it, and that just to keep your tradition.

Okay, to start off with, I don't appreciate you automatically assuming I "know very well" what you are talking about and am just playing at not understanding just to, I don't know, pull along the conversation, or refuse acknowledging a particular point. When I said that I wasn't sure what your point was, it was because, surprise, I wasn't sure what your point was. Your paragraph was vague to me and I didn't understand it very well.
Secondly, I know you don't know me, but I don't deliberately read scripture incorrectly just because I'm in love with my pet doctrines. That would be stupid. What I want, above all else, is to know what God is telling me...in this instance, about the Last Days and his return. And if I come across a verse or a convincing evidence that shows my Amil perspective to be in error, I have no problem what so ever in jettisoning it. At all. I'm in love with his appearing, not Amillennialism.
That being said, however, I have not yet been presented with anything that persuades me that Pre-trib, Pre-mil is a biblical alternative. I certainly see it's strengths, and see how people believe in it. I don't think it is heretical at all. I just think the Amil position sits best on the biblical texts. Thus far.

The "synagogue of Satan" is not about true Judah. It is about the children of darkness that 'knowingly' work for Satan.

The ONLY time those will bow the knee in worship, with them at our feet, is during Christ's future 1,000 years reign of Revelation 20. (I even marked that specific point in red about their bowing in worship in my previous post, so you could not... miss it, nor pass over it. Yet you still did.)

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV


Phil 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV

Rom 14:11-12
11 For it is written, 'As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God.'
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
KJV

Rev 14:1
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
KJV

That is future timing with Jesus (that "Lamb") standing on mount Zion in Jerusalem with His very elect servants. Those are who that synagogue of Satan will bow in front of in Christ's future 1,000 years reign on earth.

Okay, let me make sure I have your point correctly. You are saying that for this event to happen: the evil ones (synagogue of satan) must bow before us, then it can only happen in the Millennium?
The problem I see with that is all the verses that tell us that at Christ's return all will be judged; either into eternal glory or eternal punishment. How do they bow before us when they are in hell?
There are no specifics in the verses you posted that lock us into a time frame, meaning, there is nothing there that specifies it needs to happen after Christ's return (in the millennium). It could happen at his coming just as well as all the other events the bible lists as happening at his coming.
My point, I believe, is that while it is interesting that these people will be forced to acknowledge their sin against us and God, there is no real way to draw any Millennium conclusions from it. It doesn't mention that time period at all. It seems that you would need to go to that passage looking for a time period that 'could fit', before you would see it. But it is not there naturally. All that is there, naturally, is God promising a persecuted people that he will punish the wicked and bring vindication to the just. And in that we trust.

 

[Davy]

Okay, to start off with, I don't appreciate you automatically assuming I "know very well" what you are talking about and am just playing at not understanding just to, I don't know, pull along the conversation, or refuse acknowledging a particular point. When I said that I wasn't sure what your point was, it was because, surprise, I wasn't sure what your point was. Your paragraph was vague to me and I didn't understand it very well.
Secondly, I know you don't know me, but I don't deliberately read scripture incorrectly just because I'm in love with my pet doctrines. That would be stupid. What I want, above all else, is to know what God is telling me...in this instance, about the Last Days and his return. And if I come across a verse or a convincing evidence that shows my Amil perspective to be in error, I have no problem what so ever in jettisoning it. At all. I'm in love with his appearing, not Amillennialism.
That being said, however, I have not yet been presented with anything that persuades me that Pre-trib, Pre-mil is a biblical alternative. I certainly see it's strengths, and see how people believe in it. I don't think it is heretical at all. I just think the Amil position sits best on the biblical texts. Thus far.
Okay, let me make sure I have your point correctly. You are saying that for this event to happen: the evil ones (synagogue of satan) must bow before us, then it can only happen in the Millennium?
The problem I see with that is all the verses that tell us that at Christ's return all will be judged; either into eternal glory or eternal punishment. How do they bow before us when they are in hell?

And yet, you still passed over the Rev.3:9 example, even though I highlighted the specific phrase about that synagogue of Satan coming to worship at the feet of Christ's elect.

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

When have you ever seen that in red happen? It hasn't yet, even because those left that will have come up against Jerusalem is about the battle on the "day of the Lord" which the first part of that Zech.14 chapter declares with Jesus' 2nd coming. And who would miss the point there about those being survivors of the armies that come upon Jerusalem on the final day of this world? How is it those left of them are commanded to go up to Jerusalem from year to year, and worship The King, The LORD of hosts?

And the "synagogue of Satan" coming to worship at the feet of Christ's elect is certainly not about any idea of their being in hell and perishing!

I'm done discussing this with you. The Scriptures are very clear on the matter of Christ's enemies being required to come to worship Him after Christ's 2nd coming. If the Amill tradition was correct, then no such Scripture would exist. If you want to reject what those Scriptures declare clearly, then go to. And if me saying that insults you, then it sure doesn't take much to insult someone like you at all then.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

@Davy & @Naomi25

Revelation 3:9 is referencing a church about believers that says they are Jews but are not, and do lie as they are of the Synagogue of Satan.

I can think of only one denomination verbalizing that see themselves as replacing Israel and that is the Catholic Church.

Now before any one can contends that it is not believers that are of the Synagogue of Satan, let me point out the church at Thyatira as they are committing spiritual fornication and have known the utter depths of Satan for which they speak hence tongues without interpretation for private use as gained by seeking another Jesus as in a separate baptism with the Holy Ghost apart from salvation for a sign of tongues that is Satan's tongues.

See reference Revelation 2:18-25 I think you can click on that scriptural reference to see the scripture but I think the forum uses ESV rather than the KJV which I prefer the KJV, but anyway... I see that as incorporating the Catholic, Pentecostal, and Charismatics as relating to the church at Thyatira.

Don't forget 1 Timothy 4:1-2 also prophesied how come shall depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 testifies to that falling away happening first as that iniquity was even happening in Paul's days for which believers will be damned ( as vessels unto dishonor in His House ) for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation from which God would permit that strong delusion to occur ... as in he who let will let until he be taken out of the way... the restraining power of teh holy Spirit will cease to allow the strong delusion to occur for believing that lie and opening themselves up to receive not the Holy Spirit, but the actual seducing spirits.

So if you are wondering how those of the synagogue of Satan would be worshiping at the saints' feet, it is because they are the believers that got left behind and then resurrected after the great tribulation to be worshiping at the feet of pre raptured saints that dwell in New Jerusalem where Christ Jesus reigns from as king of kings on earth.

Not sure He will help you at all personally in what you were both were discussing about from your individual divisive view point, but there is that 2 cents.

 

[Davy]

@Davy & @Naomi25

Revelation 3:9 is referencing a church about believers that says they are Jews but are not, and do lie as they are of the Synagogue of Satan.

No, that's not what the Revelation 3:9 verse is about. If you think it's about those at the Church of Philadelphia being that "synagogue of Satan", then you would be speaking for the devil himself, for those Jesus said that to are His elect Church.

Early on in Israel's history, foreigners of the pagan nations began creeping into Judah's stay. God told Israel to literally wipe out 7 specific nations in the land of Canaan (Deut.20). With other nations, He told Israel to offer peace. Israel disobeyed (Judges 2 & 3). Instead, the children of Israel allowed those remnants of the Canaanites to dwell among them, their becoming bondservants to Israel:

1 Kings 9:20-22
20 And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
21 Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
22 But of the children of Israel did Solomon make no bondmen: but they were men of war, and his servants, and his princes, and his captains, and rulers of his chariots, and his horsemen.
KJV

Canaanites, dwelling among Israel.

In Joshua 9, a group of Canaanites play-acted like they were strangers from a far away land, and tricked Joshua into making an oath for them to come in among them:

Josh 9:22-23
22 And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, "Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?
23 Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God."
KJV

They become bondservants to Israel. And more importantly, Joshua made them hewers of wood and drawers of water "for the house of my God." That means they became temple servants, which is where the name Nethinim comes from.

Ezra 2:58-62
58 All the Nethinims, and the children of Solomon's servants, were three hundred ninety and two.
59 And these were they which went up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsa, Cherub, Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and their seed, whether they were of Israel:
60 The children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two.
61 And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
KJV

That reveals by that time, some of the leftovers of the nations of Canaan that had become bondservants to Israel, had eventually crept into the priesthood as priests, or were serving the Levites with temple duties as Nethinim foreigners. God made it clear to Israel of old that only the sons of Aaron and Levites were to be priests in Israel. The Nethinims eventually began to be highly regarded, and were given a dwelling next to the City of David at Ophel (Neh.3:26).

After Nehemiah...

"NETHINIM
The Nethinim are not again mentioned in Scripture. It is probable that they, with the singers and porters, became gradually incorporated in the general body of Levites; their name passed ere long into a tradition, and became at a later time a butt for the scorn and bitterness of the Talmudic writers against everything that they regarded as un-Jewish."
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)


SCRIBES OF ISRAEL:
1 Chron 2:55
55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.
KJV

The Kenites were a foreign tribe among the nations of Canaan (Genesis 15:19-21). This Rechab was not the Hebrew Rechab who was of the tribe of Benjamin. This Rechab was the father of the Kenites, a descendant of Hammath.

"RECHAB
Rechab was the ancestor or founder of a family, or order, in Israel known as the Rechabites, who at various times were conspicuous in the religious life of the nation. The most notable member of this family was Jehonadab (2 Kings 10:15 ff.23), or Jonadab, as he is called in Jer 35. Jehonadab was a zealous Yahweh-worshipper and took part with Jehu in the extirpation of Baal-worship and the house of Ahab. He set for his descendants a vow of asceticism: that they should drink no wine, nor plant fields or vineyards, nor build nor live in houses throughout their generations (Jer 35:6-7)."
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

"RECHAB
The Rechabites are spoken of as "scribes" (1 Chron 2:55); at the return from Babylon they took a profession, almost exclusively a Levite one. Kimchi (in Vatablus) cites the tradition recorded by Rechab. Judah that the Rechabites married Levites, and their children ministered in the temple. Their close juxtaposition with the sons of David (1 Chron 3:1) shows in what esteem the sacred writer held them."
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)


The Kenite scribes would be against our Lord Jesus Christ, and He against them:

Matt 23:14-16
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
KJV

Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV


So it's not just deceived Jews of the children of Israel which work against Jesus and His Church that are that "synagogue of Satan". It's those crept in unawares among Israel that are the heart of them, and represent children of darkness hiding among the Jews. Thus they say... they are Jews, but do lie and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan, like Jesus said.

Do they have any protectors here on this forum? Let's find out, by their reactions to this.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

No, that's not what the Revelation 3:9 verse is about.

I reckon we will know soon enough.

But as much as some people accuse me of believing in the pre trib rapture theory as if taught by Darby ( which is not the case ), you could not have been taught about the lost ten tribes of Israel unless by someone else. So if any one should be discerning what the scripture says with Him from what they have been taught, it should be you, brother.

 

[Naomi25]

And yet, you still passed over the Rev.3:9 example, even though I highlighted the specific phrase about that synagogue of Satan coming to worship at the feet of Christ's elect.

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

When have you ever seen that in red happen? It hasn't yet, even because those left that will have come up against Jerusalem is about the battle on the "day of the Lord" which the first part of that Zech.14 chapter declares with Jesus' 2nd coming. And who would miss the point there about those being survivors of the armies that come upon Jerusalem on the final day of this world? How is it those left of them are commanded to go up to Jerusalem from year to year, and worship The King, The LORD of hosts?

And the "synagogue of Satan" coming to worship at the feet of Christ's elect is certainly not about any idea of their being in hell and perishing!

I'm done discussing this with you. The Scriptures are very clear on the matter of Christ's enemies being required to come to worship Him after Christ's 2nd coming. If the Amill tradition was correct, then no such Scripture would exist. If you want to reject what those Scriptures declare clearly, then go to. And if me saying that insults you, then it sure doesn't take much to insult someone like you at all then.

Okay...you missed my point again...and then again. Just because you felt you pointed out something clearly, does not mean it was clear to another person. And assuming immediately that "they have to have got it" will lead to confusion and, well, accusations. Yes you highlighted a sentence, but I did not see it clearly in context with whatever point you were trying to make. And to then accuse me, twice now, of willingly "passing over" your point, gets us nowhere. I am not offended by your view on end times, I was offended by you leaping to assume I ignored your point, rather than missed it. People talk and think differently. Perhaps next time someone openly says "I don't get it", you should be a little more open to that idea, and try re-phrasing your point, rather than start trashing their honesty.
But...I think we can agree on the fact that this conversation has gone past any worthy point.

 

[Naomi25]

@Davy & @Naomi25

Revelation 3:9 is referencing a church about believers that says they are Jews but are not, and do lie as they are of the Synagogue of Satan.

I can think of only one denomination verbalizing that see themselves as replacing Israel and that is the Catholic Church.

Now before any one can contends that it is not believers that are of the Synagogue of Satan, let me point out the church at Thyatira as they are committing spiritual fornication and have known the utter depths of Satan for which they speak hence tongues without interpretation for private use as gained by seeking another Jesus as in a separate baptism with the Holy Ghost apart from salvation for a sign of tongues that is Satan's tongues.

See reference Revelation 2:18-25 I think you can click on that scriptural reference to see the scripture but I think the forum uses ESV rather than the KJV which I prefer the KJV, but anyway... I see that as incorporating the Catholic, Pentecostal, and Charismatics as relating to the church at Thyatira.

Don't forget 1 Timothy 4:1-2 also prophesied how come shall depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 testifies to that falling away happening first as that iniquity was even happening in Paul's days for which believers will be damned ( as vessels unto dishonor in His House ) for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation from which God would permit that strong delusion to occur ... as in he who let will let until he be taken out of the way... the restraining power of teh holy Spirit will cease to allow the strong delusion to occur for believing that lie and opening themselves up to receive not the Holy Spirit, but the actual seducing spirits.

So if you are wondering how those of the synagogue of Satan would be worshiping at the saints' feet, it is because they are the believers that got left behind and then resurrected after the great tribulation to be worshiping at the feet of pre raptured saints that dwell in New Jerusalem where Christ Jesus reigns from as king of kings on earth.

Not sure He will help you at all personally in what you were both were discussing about from your individual divisive view point, but there is that 2 cents.

Thanks for your 2 cents! Perhaps you'll already guess that my view differs from yours (surprise!). I don't think there is any great mystery to the "Synagogue of Satan"...those who say they are Jews, but are not. I think they are Jews. Those who think that their ancestry and laws and rituals would save them and see them right before God. We know they persecuted Christians, as they saw them as Blaspheming against their God. And yet Paul tells us repeatedly that the real Jew is one who has a new heart in Christ.

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Romans 2:28–29


For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. - Romans 9:6–8

Jesus himself tells the Pharisees, the most Jewish people of them all, that they are sons of the devil.

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” - John 8:44–47

Now, I know many people get a little put off when others, especially Amil believers, say things like this...they believe it to be "Replacement theology", but I can assure you, it is not. Not only are there bible verses saying just what I have said (see above), but it also doesn't discount Israels future restoration back into God's arms. Rom 9-11 clearly speak of a time when 'national', or, as Paul put it 'fleshly Israel' will be turned about by God and come to see Christ as their Messiah. I also agree that specific promises, like that of the land, was made directly to National Israel.
But back in the (relatively) early Church, a lot of the persecution the new Christian Church experienced was at the hands of the Jewish Synagogues. The Jewish people had a certain level of...autonomy when it came to worship, you see. As long as they paid their taxes to Caesar, and didn't revolt, they were allowed to worship their God. And so in the first few years of the Church, before Rome got wind of what was really happening, the Christians were able to 'hide' under this blanket of protection. But the Jews wouldn't have it. They reported them to the Roman authorities, making sure it was understood that they were NOT Jews, worshiping the Jewish God. And then the Christian community would find themselves in a place where they would need to bow before Caesar and Lord and King, or be in big trouble.
We know that Christ's response to the persecution of his Church was quite personal; "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" And we know that Jewish people, back then or even now, who don't accept Christ are "enemies for our sake", in regards to the gospel. But the great hope for them, as a Nation, is the promise that God will guide them back.

So...while at times in history Jews have been a Synagogue of Satan to believers, and in return, we have seen Christians behaving appallingly towards Jews (some of the stories that have come out of Nazi Germany), we can have faith that at the end of time, God will bring both children home, even though one has been prodigal for many years.
That's my 2 cents!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Thanks for your 2 cents! Perhaps you'll already guess that my view differs from yours (surprise!). I don't think there is any great mystery to the "Synagogue of Satan"...those who say they are Jews, but are not. I think they are Jews. Those who think that their ancestry and laws and rituals would save them and see them right before God. We know they persecuted Christians, as they saw them as Blaspheming against their God. And yet Paul tells us repeatedly that the real Jew is one who has a new heart in Christ.

Note the bold in your quote. If Paul tells us repeatedly what a real Jew is, I am not sure how you can assign the Synagogue of Satan as the Jews.

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Romans 2:28–29

For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. - Romans 9:6–8

Jesus himself tells the Pharisees, the most Jewish people of them all, that they are sons of the devil.

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” - John 8:44–47

Jesus did call some of those Jews so by their actions and their evil desire, but He was not assigning Jews as being all of the devil when He did not deny to Pontius Pilate that He was and still is King of the Jews.

Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

Now, I know many people get a little put off when others, especially Amil believers, say things like this...they believe it to be "Replacement theology", but I can assure you, it is not. Not only are there bible verses saying just what I have said (see above), but it also doesn't discount Israels future restoration back into God's arms. Rom 9-11 clearly speak of a time when 'national', or, as Paul put it 'fleshly Israel' will be turned about by God and come to see Christ as their Messiah. I also agree that specific promises, like that of the land, was made directly to National Israel.
But back in the (relatively) early Church, a lot of the persecution the new Christian Church experienced was at the hands of the Jewish Synagogues. The Jewish people had a certain level of...autonomy when it came to worship, you see. As long as they paid their taxes to Caesar, and didn't revolt, they were allowed to worship their God. And so in the first few years of the Church, before Rome got wind of what was really happening, the Christians were able to 'hide' under this blanket of protection. But the Jews wouldn't have it. They reported them to the Roman authorities, making sure it was understood that they were NOT Jews, worshiping the Jewish God. And then the Christian community would find themselves in a place where they would need to bow before Caesar and Lord and King, or be in big trouble.
We know that Christ's response to the persecution of his Church was quite personal; "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" And we know that Jewish people, back then or even now, who don't accept Christ are "enemies for our sake", in regards to the gospel. But the great hope for them, as a Nation, is the promise that God will guide them back.

So...while at times in history Jews have been a Synagogue of Satan to believers, and in return, we have seen Christians behaving appallingly towards Jews (some of the stories that have come out of Nazi Germany), we can have faith that at the end of time, God will bring both children home, even though one has been prodigal for many years.
That's my 2 cents!

Seeing how sinners are of the Synagogue of Satan, just because some of them assign themselves the title of a Jew, it does not mean real Jews.

Remember what Paul said what a real Jew is. So we can't say Jews are the Synagogue of Satan. If we read your quote again...""Synagogue of Satan"...those who say they are Jews, but are not" and it is also written, that they do lie.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

In order for them to worship at the feet of those that are members of that church, they have to be believers that are engaging in the lie as the Catholics do declare that they replace Israel as God's kingdom on earth. They even have nefarious plans to move their Vatican headquarters to Jerusalem... maybe even the third Temple itself during the beginning of the great tribulation.

There are even reports by a few Catholic priests that Satanic rituals are being performed in the Vatican right now.

Since the Vatican is for world's religions ecumenism, one can suspect the one world church coming by way of them.

And although it is incredulous for any one to believe that there can be any unification, tongues without interpretation as gained by a spirit coming over them, will be the unifying factor as after the workings of Satan.

So.. no. I do not see Jews of the world as the Synagogue of Satan when it is not a really lie when Jesus identifies as their King of the Jews, and since after the great trib rapture when the everlasting gospel is spread all over the world, then there will be 144,000 new believers in Christ Jesus, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel as the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation when the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the "Jews" because the times of the Gentiles in dispensing the gospel will end at the rapture.

The Synagogue of Satan as I suspect it to be... are believers that are Catholics being of the Catholic Church that say they are Jews, but are not for why they are worshiping at the feet of the saints of that church that had been raptured while those Catholics got left behind.

Jesuits are a branch of "Catholics" that have loyalty to the Black Pope; the Jesuit General that supposedly resides at the Vatican, and probably from there is where the son of perdition will come, but no one will know for sure until he is revealed in the Holy of Holies halfway thru the great tribulation.

Anyway.... that is why I suspect the Synagogue of Satan are.. Jesuits... even though some Catholics do mouth their belief that they are Jews when they are not, but do lie per their replacement theology. I am not one to say who is a real believer or not when it comes to Catholic Jesuits, and we are not to judge any believers in that way, but that is why I see how they can be worshiping at the feet of that raptured church and not somewhere else.

Thanks for sharing your point of view and your 2 cents. I reckon we shall all know for sure soon.

 

[Naomi25]

Note the bold in your quote. If Paul tells us repeatedly what a real Jew is, I am not sure how you can assign the Synagogue of Satan as the Jews.

Well, my gist was Paul calls those who accept Christ and have a new heart "real Jews"...thus any "Jew" who is part of the Synagogue of Satan would be a national Jew (non spiritual Jew) who believed, like the Pharisees, that he was saved by his own merit in law-keeping, and also persecuted Christians.

Jesus did call some of those Jews so by their actions and their evil desire, but He was not assigning Jews as being all of the devil when He did not deny to Pontius Pilate that He was and still is King of the Jews.

Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

No, not all 'National' Jews would have been classed Synagogue of Satan. I suppose it's akin to today, and the persecution Christians, or Jews see from Gentile non-believers. Some are active in their hate and persecution of us, most don't care enough to do anything. Likewise, I expect back then there were plenty of national Jews who went about their lives, and perhaps disagreed with the Christians, but respected them anyway. Hardly in the same class as the Pharisees or those zealots who sought them out to imprison or kill them.

Seeing how sinners are of the Synagogue of Satan, just because some of them assign themselves the title of a Jew, it does not mean real Jews.

Remember what Paul said what a real Jew is. So we can't say Jews are the Synagogue of Satan. If we read your quote again...""Synagogue of Satan"...those who say they are Jews, but are not" and it is also written, that they do lie.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

In order for them to worship at the feet of those that are members of that church, they have to be believers that are engaging in the lie as the Catholics do declare that they replace Israel as God's kingdom on earth. They even have nefarious plans to move their Vatican headquarters to Jerusalem... maybe even the third Temple itself during the beginning of the great tribulation.

There are even reports by a few Catholic priests that Satanic rituals are being performed in the Vatican right now.

Since the Vatican is for world's religions ecumenism, one can suspect the one world church coming by way of them.

And although it is incredulous for any one to believe that there can be any unification, tongues without interpretation as gained by a spirit coming over them, will be the unifying factor as after the workings of Satan.

So.. no. I do not see Jews of the world as the Synagogue of Satan when it is not a really lie when Jesus identifies as their King of the Jews, and since after the great trib rapture when the everlasting gospel is spread all over the world, then there will be 144,000 new believers in Christ Jesus, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel as the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation when the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the "Jews" because the times of the Gentiles in dispensing the gospel will end at the rapture.

The Synagogue of Satan as I suspect it to be... are believers that are Catholics being of the Catholic Church that say they are Jews, but are not for why they are worshiping at the feet of the saints of that church that had been raptured while those Catholics got left behind.

Jesuits are a branch of "Catholics" that have loyalty to the Black Pope; the Jesuit General that supposedly resides at the Vatican, and probably from there is where the son of perdition will come, but no one will know for sure until he is revealed in the Holy of Holies halfway thru the great tribulation.

Anyway.... that is why I suspect the Synagogue of Satan are.. Jesuits... even though some Catholics do mouth their belief that they are Jews when they are not, but do lie per their replacement theology. I am not one to say who is a real believer or not when it comes to Catholic Jesuits, and we are not to judge any believers in that way, but that is why I see how they can be worshiping at the feet of that raptured church and not somewhere else.

I see where you are going here, and I suppose it is possible that the 'Jews' in question here are false Christians. However, when one does a study of the use of the word "Jew" in the NT, we see that overwhelmingly it is used for national, Jewish, people. Even the times when Paul is telling us there is no Jew and Greek, or what it takes to be a 'true' Jew, he still maintains the distinction of Jew/Gentile in literary form so we can understand him better. So, for myself, I struggle to accept that coming to Revelation, we suddenly jettison all of that, and now must take the word "Jew" to mean Christian...even if it be a false one.

Thanks for sharing your point of view and your 2 cents. I reckon we shall all know for sure soon.

Yes, I suppose we shall! I am not opposed to being found wrong, just so you know! The above, I fully acknowledge, is just my opinion, and it is good to be able to talk to others, as it helps flesh out our thoughts on such matters. I think, perhaps, your point above is what Davy might have been trying to get at, and I just didn't 'get' it. Ah, well. Like I said, people express things differently, and sometimes, things just don't click.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I see where you are going here, and I suppose it is possible that the 'Jews' in question here are false Christians.

I was going for believers not abiding in Him as His disciples that say they are Jews but are not and do lie.

However, when one does a study of the use of the word "Jew" in the NT, we see that overwhelmingly it is used for national, Jewish, people. Even the times when Paul is telling us there is no Jew and Greek, or what it takes to be a 'true' Jew, he still maintains the distinction of Jew/Gentile in literary form so we can understand him better. So, for myself, I struggle to accept that coming to Revelation, we suddenly jettison all of that, and now must take the word "Jew" to mean Christian...even if it be a false one.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a false christian since we are not to be bragging about being a true christian. The difference between a believers saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His disciples is that His disciples are living by faith in Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to help them to abide in His words and to follow Him whereas not every saved believer would apply that faith in Him in how to follow Him.

Yes, I suppose we shall! I am not opposed to being found wrong, just so you know! The above, I fully acknowledge, is just my opinion, and it is good to be able to talk to others, as it helps flesh out our thoughts on such matters. I think, perhaps, your point above is what Davy might have been trying to get at, and I just didn't 'get' it. Ah, well. Like I said, people express things differently, and sometimes, things just don't click.

I don't think Davy and I are in agreement enough to say that we are saying the same thing. Oh well.

 

[Naomi25]

I was going for believers not abiding in Him as His disciples that say they are Jews but are not and do lie.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a false christian since we are not to be bragging about being a true christian. The difference between a believers saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His disciples is that His disciples are living by faith in Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd to help them to abide in His words and to follow Him whereas not every saved believer would apply that faith in Him in how to follow Him.

Okay, now I'm a little confused, so let me try and clarify a bit. Firstly, when I said "false Christian" (and sorry, I should have painted this more clearly), I meant those who call themselves Christians, but who's lives and fruit proclaim they are not.
Secondly...I'm not sure I quite get your distinction between those 'believers' who are abiding in him, to those who are not. What is the outcome on not abiding in him? Because, in my understanding, if one is "in Christ"...a believer who has been given a new heart by Christ, then that election and calling is secure. Should we abide in him and his teaching? Of course! But as every Christian knows, there are hard times when perhaps we don't do this as well as we should. But part of the 'good news' is that Christ holds our election secure in his strength and perfection,...it does not rest on our weakness.
So...yeah. Maybe a little more info on what you are saying here? Thanks!

 

[zipzaddle]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18;
Then 2 verses later, the Apostle Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

1Th 4 (13) ... concerning them which are deceased ... (14) ... even so them also which are deceased... (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are deceased...
The question is what happens to those that are dead before Jesus's second coming? Answer is 1Th 4:16 ...the dead in Christ shall rise first

"Oh, God will never let me feel pain, oh."

Jesus said "In the world ye shall have tribulation" and Romans 5:3 knowing that tribulation works patience

God is building up an army to face anything the enemy has.

2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in death many times. (24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. (25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the ocean; (26) In journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; (27) In weariness and painfulness, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in lack of food often, in cold and nakedness.

Yes he is making us strong and our strength comes from God. Building a house on solid ground. Looking forward to the next battle, because I will be stronger and wiser after.

Pre-trippers are missing out on the adventure. 2Co_7:4 ... I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Okay, now I'm a little confused, so let me try and clarify a bit. Firstly, when I said "false Christian" (and sorry, I should have painted this more clearly), I meant those who call themselves Christians, but who's lives and fruit proclaim they are not.

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

Secondly...I'm not sure I quite get your distinction between those 'believers' who are abiding in him, to those who are not. What is the outcome on not abiding in him? Because, in my understanding, if one is "in Christ"...a believer who has been given a new heart by Christ, then that election and calling is secure. Should we abide in him and his teaching? Of course! But as every Christian knows, there are hard times when perhaps we don't do this as well as we should. But part of the 'good news' is that Christ holds our election secure in his strength and perfection,...it does not rest on our weakness.
So...yeah. Maybe a little more info on what you are saying here? Thanks!

2 Timothy 2:18-21 testifies to how believers can err from the truth and have their faith overthrown, and yet they still have His seal for why even former believers and not just believers in iniquity are called to depart from iniquity so that they too may be received as vessels unto honor in His House when the Bridegroom comes.

Any iniquity that a believer has not repented of, even religious dead woks that deny Him ( Titus 1:15-16 ) and not just the works of the flesh are in effect, denying Him. Matthew 7:21-23 has Jesus not knowing them because as workers of iniquity, they are denying Him even though they claim to be doing works in His name and professing Him and all that, and that is why He is denying them, but even if they do not believe in Him any more, He is faithful BECAUSE He still abides even in former believers and especially in those left behind. Why? In 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 cites the purpose of the church's excommunication which will be the same when God's judges His House first at the pre great trib rapture when He excommunicates unrepentant believers and former believers from attending the Marriage Supper as outlined in 1 Corinthians 5:11 As the church is supposed to do, God will do.

But He still abides in those saints having His seal that gets left behind as that is part of the faithful saying for why that call of repentance is given even to former believers in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 so that they too may repent and be received to obtain that "eternal glory" that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus which is to be received as that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor and to His glory in Jesus Christ's name .

 

[zipzaddle]

This Pre-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation with Rapture has no scriptural proof and as the posts in this thread indicate there is no end, because there was never a beginning. No scripture can be found to support this. It is a stumbling stone. Here is the interpretation.

70 Week Prophecy of Daniel Interpreted

In Chapter 9 Daniel is praying for Israel and Jerusalem then...

In Dan 9:24 God answers and says “Seventy weeks [490 years] are determined upon thy people [the Israelite]

Daniel 9:25 … that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem... (in Ezra 7:7-9 is the commandment and the date was 457 BC Jewish date)

Daniel 9:26 … then 62 weeks [434 years] the anointed [High Priesthood] shall be cut off [consumed] (Herod cut off Israel's High Priesthood in 23 BC)

Daniel 9:25 … the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks [49 years], and threescore and two weeks [434 years] ... (Jesus the Messiah starts His ministry in 26 AD)

Daniel 9:27 … shall confirm the covenant with many [Jews] for one week [7 years]: and in the middle of the week [3 years 6 months] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease … (Jesus becomes the sacrificial lamb)

Daniel 9:27 … for the overspreading of abominations [idolatry worship] God shall make it desolate [stun it] until the consummation [destruction, completion, riddance] and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [ruined] (Ancient Jewish idolatry worship will be hindered by The Gospel of Jesus until it's destruction which was the desolation of Israel, Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD)
The last 3 years and 6 months started at the Jerusalem riots of 66 AD. In April 67 Emperor Nero sent the general Vespasian to crush the Jewish Revolt and his son Titus finished it. Ancient Israel was made desolate in 70 AD and until the season of Satan stayed desolate.

The Left Behind series is published as fiction (not true) and the church that is supported by it is Shadow Mountain. In Shadow Mountain's church there is a large stained glass window above the pulpit and it is the All Seeing Eye of Horus. The great deceiver might even be deceiving David Jeremiah pastor of Shadow Mountain. A good man and a church that does a lot of good for the Kingdom. Billy Graham, one the greatest evangelists to live, had to associate with many bad people yet he brought so many people to Christ. How is that to be understood? It is not Good “or” Bad it is the whole of the sum [good + bad] which builds the Kingdom. Hard to understand how Satan is a part of God's plan, but it works for ultimate purpose of establishing the righteous Kingdom.


Note: [ starting from 70AD the 1000 year (which happened) and freeing of Satan (which happened) and season of Satan (which is happening) can easily be found if someone truly wants to know, A hint is Nebuchadnezzar Statue is 6 kingdoms and the world is in the fifth kingdom after the iron and “potter's clay” don't mix and the last (next) is the Christian Kingdom]


God Bless and MAGGA (Make Almighty God Great Always!)

 

[Enoch111]

This Pre-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation with Rapture has no scriptural proof and as the posts in this thread indicate there is no end, because there was never a beginning.

Your interpretation of Daniel's future 70th week (two periods of 3 1/2 years) is incorrect because you have misinterpreted Daniel 9:27.

And the Bible makes it very clear that (1) there will be a Rapture, (2) there will be a Tribulation period and (3) there will also be the Great Tribulation. So to say there is "no scriptural proof" is to actually deny what is in Scripture.

 

[Naomi25]

2 Timothy 2:18-21 testifies to how believers can err from the truth and have their faith overthrown, and yet they still have His seal for why even former believers and not just believers in iniquity are called to depart from iniquity so that they too may be received as vessels unto honor in His House when the Bridegroom comes.

Any iniquity that a believer has not repented of, even religious dead woks that deny Him ( Titus 1:15-16 ) and not just the works of the flesh are in effect, denying Him. Matthew 7:21-23 has Jesus not knowing them because as workers of iniquity, they are denying Him even though they claim to be doing works in His name and professing Him and all that, and that is why He is denying them, but even if they do not believe in Him any more, He is faithful BECAUSE He still abides even in former believers and especially in those left behind. Why? In 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 cites the purpose of the church's excommunication which will be the same when God's judges His House first at the pre great trib rapture when He excommunicates unrepentant believers and former believers from attending the Marriage Supper as outlined in 1 Corinthians 5:11 As the church is supposed to do, God will do.

But He still abides in those saints having His seal that gets left behind as that is part of the faithful saying for why that call of repentance is given even to former believers in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 so that they too may repent and be received to obtain that "eternal glory" that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus which is to be received as that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in His honor and to His glory in Jesus Christ's name .

Okay, I see what you are saying, and as interesting as it is, well...I think I have to disagree, respectfully, with one of your basic premises. You say that God still 'abides even in former believers', and, well, I come from the position that says the bible affirms that if one is truly saved, they will not depart from the faith. Waver, perhaps, wander, even, but not truly depart.
I find it hard to see in scripture the idea of people becoming regenerated in the Spirit, only to then become non-believers (un-regenerate) again, but still have God's seal...the Spirit, within them? How does that work? If, on the other hand, when a person is truly made new, God upholds their faith, their newness of heart and spirit, even through foolish mistakes like, perhaps, faulty teaching, then we don't need to try and figure out the 'on, off, on' nature of spiritual regeneration.
Consider the verses you have given: 2 Tim 2 discusses those teaching faulty doctrine. Which, yes, is foolish and hurting some, but we have plenty of those doing that today, most are doing it with a complete conviction that their belief is correct and biblically accurate. Paul doesn't actually say they are not true believers, he merely states that they have 'swerved from the truth', and that as 'God's foundation stands...let those who name the Lord depart from iniquity'. Basically...it's a call for those teaching wrong things to take a long look at God's truth and to stop it.
Titus 1 is a lesson in dividing the true believer from the false. In rebuking people for their foolish behaviors, there will be some who will be convicted, and others who will show by their works that they 'deny God', despite 'confessing him'.
Matt 7 is quite clear that those who are crying out 'Lord, Lord', where never known by Christ.
I could go on, and also post some verses showing why I think that once a believer, one cannot become rescind what has taken place at a spiritual level, but I'm a little short on time, and I think you catch my drift!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Okay, I see what you are saying, and as interesting as it is, well...I think I have to disagree, respectfully, with one of your basic premises. You say that God still 'abides even in former believers', and, well, I come from the position that says the bible affirms that if one is truly saved, they will not depart from the faith. Waver, perhaps, wander, even, but not truly depart.

I don't know any scripture that says that, Nancy. Feel free to share.

From what I have learned in scripture is that we may not abide in Him and some will err from the truth and even have their faith overthrown, but He is the One that is faithful and that is why scripture says He will never depart, even from the ones that gets left behind at the pre great trib rapture event.

I find it hard to see in scripture the idea of people becoming regenerated in the Spirit, only to then become non-believers (un-regenerate) again, but still have God's seal...the Spirit, within them? How does that work? If, on the other hand, when a person is truly made new, God upholds their faith, their newness of heart and spirit, even through foolish mistakes like, perhaps, faulty teaching, then we don't need to try and figure out the 'on, off, on' nature of spiritual regeneration.

Jesus gave the parable of the seed and the sower in how some will get saved but not root themselves in the word that they fall away.

Jesus is warning churches in Revelation as this one church is the clear consequence of being cast into the bed of the great tribulation if they do not repent.

The parable of the prodigal son has him giving up his first inheritance for wild living and when he has lost everything and was destitute, he returns because he is still son.

That seal of adoption is not going anywhere and Hebrews 12:1-26 although read as if it applies to the times we are living in, it can also apply to those left behind as being chastened by the Father.

The church is to excommunicate an unrepentant brother from the assembly for this purpose in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 as that will be the same purpose for why God will judge His House first and disqualified any saved believer found in iniquity, but they are still His. Luke 12:40-49 has those cut off and with the unbelievers as those cut off are still called His servants and they will get stripes per the measure of knowledge for not preparing for the Bridegroom when He had come.

So He will not depart as He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39-40 ) and thus any one excommunicated will be resurrected later on after the great tribulation.

So once the church excommunicates a brother, if he does not repent, the Bridegroom will excommunicate him BUT do note that in spite of the 99 sheep that He has, He will get even that one lost sheep as testified in Matthew 18:10-17

Consider the verses you have given: 2 Tim 2 discusses those teaching faulty doctrine. Which, yes, is foolish and hurting some, but we have plenty of those doing that today, most are doing it with a complete conviction that their belief is correct and biblically accurate. Paul doesn't actually say they are not true believers, he merely states that they have 'swerved from the truth', and that as 'God's foundation stands...let those who name the Lord depart from iniquity'. Basically...it's a call for those teaching wrong things to take a long look at God's truth and to stop it.
Titus 1 is a lesson in dividing the true believer from the false. In rebuking people for their foolish behaviors, there will be some who will be convicted, and others who will show by their works that they 'deny God', despite 'confessing him'.
Matt 7 is quite clear that those who are crying out 'Lord, Lord', where never known by Christ.
I could go on, and also post some verses showing why I think that once a believer, one cannot become rescind what has taken place at a spiritual level, but I'm a little short on time, and I think you catch my drift!

Matthew 7:21-23 is about why Jesus would deny knowing them because they are workers of iniquity. See.. Titus 1:15-16 says works that deny Him will lead to Him denying them and not just the verbal denying Him to save one's life in 2 Timothy 2:12, but the thing is in 2 Timothy 2:13, even if we believe not, He is faithful.. why..how... because He still abides in us. So that is why former believers are called to repent; They already know the gospel, they just need His help to see the lies that turned them away from Him to return to Him the Truth.

That is also why we are accountable for what we sow towards.. the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit, because God is not mocked. Even Peter warned about the reaping corruption part.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

That is why God is judging His House first as every believer at the rapture will be judged by what they have built on that foundation in that day as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 where the consequence is physical death for defiling the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ) as warned to the church at Thaytira in Revelation 2:21-25 for why they are to repent and those not involved in that iniquity... to hold fast. Paul mentions the consequence of becoming a castaway and not just losing the rewards of crowns in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.

So it can happen to saved believers for why Christ commanded His disciples to make disciples of new believers so they be rooted in the word and not fall away from their steadfastness. Indeed, we have to be patient that God is peradventuring to recover some from the snare of the devil, and so why would God recover unless someone had gotten lost and snared by the devil along the way while living in this life on earth?

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Enoch111]

I pray the blood of Christ over your soul Enoch111 and hope you find the truth. Right now Satan has a hold on you.

This is a rather extreme and condescending comment from one who is (1) brand new here and (2) does not even understand Bible prophecy properly. In fact I would never make such a comment about anyone, since differences of belief do not translate into people being under the hold of Satan.

However, since I did not go into details in my earlier post, let me show you how you are in error several times.

1. The date of 457 BC for "the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" given by Cyrus is according to Ptolemy's chronology, which according to chronologer Martin Anstey (The Chronology of the Old Testament) was in error by 80 years. So the actual date is 536 BC.

2. "Messiah the prince" (Christ) is mentioned in v 25 and "Messiah" is mentioned in v 26. While Messiah means "the anointed one", you have changed the meaning to apply to the high priest, which is completely irrelevant since Messiah was "cut off" (crucified) "but not for himself" but for the sins of the whole world. The public ministry of Christ began in 27 AD and ended in 30 AD according to Anstey.

3. Christ did NOT confirm any covenant with the Jews, and the sacrifice and oblation did not cease when He was crucified. The temple continued its sacrificial ceremonies until 70 AD. But the Antichrist is the one who will make a covenant with Israel and then renege on that covenant after 3 1/2 years, thus causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease. That is when he will set up the Abomination of Desolation mentioned by Christ is Matthew 24, and applicable to a future temple. And you have completely ignored this important aspect of the desecration of the temple. The desolations spoken of and connected to this idol are in fact all the judgments of the Great Tribulation.

MATTHEW 24: 15,16,21
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand -- Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Great Tribulation is an unprecedented event connected with the Abomination of Desolation, which clearly means that you have misinterpreted Dan 9:24-27.

As to the pre-tribulation Rapture, the onus is on you to show that it has no Scriptural support. But that is a separate issue altogether.

 

[Enoch111]

Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou is not interested in the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

And this quotation shows that you are capable of taking Scripture out of context and misapplying it. You have certainly made a good start here Zipzaddle.

What you should have done is graciously accepted the fact that you still need to learn much about Bible prophecy, and thanked me for pointing this out.

 

[Enoch111]

Pro 10:23 It is as laughter to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

Are you saying you are here to make mischief? Not a good motivation on a Christian forum.