Does Your Church Teach About the Rapture(Catching up) Heaven, Hell, Prophecy?

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Naomi25

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I also am just starting to become interested in this and you're observation above is a very good one!

Jesus comes WITH His saints (already in heaven)
FOR His saints (on earth).

Makes sense.

Well...that's where I am at the moment. To me, the plain reading of all the passages put Christ's return at a single event, and all the other "happenings" that go on at his return, happen at that one time. Be that judgement on the wicked, new bodies for the saints, renewing of the earth and cosmos...the defeat of death. It all seems to be at that one time.
I'm not opposed to the idea I could be completely wrong. But it's how I read it, and the other 'views' just leave me with too many other questions. But I am open to listening and learning. I like a good conversation on end times!
 

Naomi25

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You are forgetting that just before the Second Coming of Christ there is the Marriage of th Lamb in Heaven (Rev 19). Therefore the Resurrection/Rapture cannot possibly be the same as the Second Coming. All the saints must be present in Heaven first, and only then will they descend with Christ to earth.

Well...this is supposing that Revelation is properly read in order from beginning to end, rather than a series of repeating visions. There is some debate on that today, with good points and strong arguments on both side.

However...I still don't find this argument compelling. Because at some point, people who are believers in Christ will be upon the earth while there are those in heaven. Even during the Tribulation period, when you say this Marriage of the Lamb will happen, not "all" saints are in heaven, are they? Those taken in the Rapture are. Those who died before the Rapture are. But those who came to Jesus after that are still on earth and therefore miss the Supper. Does this mean they are lesser Christians? Not part of the Bride? They attend the Supper by proxy? A marriage supper is a celebration of the marriage itself. And to truly celebrate, the Bride must have her groom. Can we truly say then, that this Supper can happen while some of the Bride is absent? I don't see this making sense.
So...either this Marriage Supper can happen when some Christians are still on Earth, or it happens at Christ's single return as he gathers all to him, both dead and alive saints. Or, the Supper described in Revelation is symbolic of the spiritual reality of what actually is.

I know Dispensationalists hate it when we talk in terms of "spiritual" realities, as if we're dismissing the weight and importance of biblical truths, but I assure you we do not. Let me try and explain it like this...we have a physical reality...here on earth one we can see, hear and feel. But we all know that there is a spiritual reality out there that we cannot see, feel or hear. One where God has his throne room, where Christ is now seated, where angels worship constantly, and where our loved ones go after death, to wait the final consummation. When we talk of "spiritual realities", all we mean is the bible is describing things that take place there, rather than here. And I think we can all agree that what happens there is potentially even more important and real, than what happens here!!

So when I say that perhaps this Supper is talking of a spiritual reality, what I am suggesting (only suggesting, mind), is that Revelation is talking about how the Church, in Christ, IS the Bride. When Christ returns in his final, triumphant coming, defeating death, making all things new and vindicating his Bride and himself, then in a very real way, that is a consummating ceremony. Our following him into the New Heavens and New Earth to begin and eternity of love, fellowship and worship is the beginning of our new life together.

That is how I see it, anyway. Like I said...I could be wrong. But I still feel my point about Rev 19 and the separation of the "bride" is a factor that cannot be ignored. It doesn't seem to make sense (to me), to say "it has to be 2 separate comings, because all the Christians have to be in heaven at Rev 19"....when all the Christians aren't in heaven at Rev 19. At the END of Rev 19...maybe. But still...not for the Supper. Don't you think that's a bit odd?
 
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Nancy

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This is exactly how I think as well! Not "essential" enough to cause rifts...but important enough to dig into the truth of the matter! Plus...it's

just plain exciting to think of our Lord coming back.
Now that's for sure! I imagine it all the time.
God bless!
-nancy
 
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GodsGrace

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ah, but it takes 2-3 days to die by Xfixion, and that was day 1?
What are you talking about bb?
Jesus died on the same day.
THAT day the thief would be with Him in Paradise; which is Abraham's Bossom.
TILL Jesus freed those waiting there and then they went to heaven.
This is taught in mainline Christianity. I like traditional, mainline Christianity...I don't care for modern ideas that have come about in the past 200 to 500 years ago.
I believe the early church fathers knew best what Jesus wanted to teach.
 
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GodsGrace

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Well...this is supposing that Revelation is properly read in order from beginning to end, rather than a series of repeating visions. There is some debate on that today, with good points and strong arguments on both side.

However...I still don't find this argument compelling. Because at some point, people who are believers in Christ will be upon the earth while there are those in heaven. Even during the Tribulation period, when you say this Marriage of the Lamb will happen, not "all" saints are in heaven, are they? Those taken in the Rapture are. Those who died before the Rapture are. But those who came to Jesus after that are still on earth and therefore miss the Supper. Does this mean they are lesser Christians? Not part of the Bride? They attend the Supper by proxy? A marriage supper is a celebration of the marriage itself. And to truly celebrate, the Bride must have her groom. Can we truly say then, that this Supper can happen while some of the Bride is absent? I don't see this making sense.
So...either this Marriage Supper can happen when some Christians are still on Earth, or it happens at Christ's single return as he gathers all to him, both dead and alive saints. Or, the Supper described in Revelation is symbolic of the spiritual reality of what actually is.

I know Dispensationalists hate it when we talk in terms of "spiritual" realities, as if we're dismissing the weight and importance of biblical truths, but I assure you we do not. Let me try and explain it like this...we have a physical reality...here on earth one we can see, hear and feel. But we all know that there is a spiritual reality out there that we cannot see, feel or hear. One where God has his throne room, where Christ is now seated, where angels worship constantly, and where our loved ones go after death, to wait the final consummation. When we talk of "spiritual realities", all we mean is the bible is describing things that take place there, rather than here. And I think we can all agree that what happens there is potentially even more important and real, than what happens here!!

So when I say that perhaps this Supper is talking of a spiritual reality, what I am suggesting (only suggesting, mind), is that Revelation is talking about how the Church, in Christ, IS the Bride. When Christ returns in his final, triumphant coming, defeating death, making all things new and vindicating his Bride and himself, then in a very real way, that is a consummating ceremony. Our following him into the New Heavens and New Earth to begin and eternity of love, fellowship and worship is the beginning of our new life together.

That is how I see it, anyway. Like I said...I could be wrong. But I still feel my point about Rev 19 and the separation of the "bride" is a factor that cannot be ignored. It doesn't seem to make sense (to me), to say "it has to be 2 separate comings, because all the Christians have to be in heaven at Rev 19"....when all the Christians aren't in heaven at Rev 19. At the END of Rev 19...maybe. But still...not for the Supper. Don't you think that's a bit odd?
Hi Naomi,
You know more about this than I ever will since I'm not that interested; however, I do agree with your points above.

I've never even heard of this marriage supper. John had visions,,,we're not supposed to take them literally. Some could be understood because they're based on other scripture, and some could be debated. I don't understand the value of debating a vision.

So I encourage you since I can't participate too much but agree with you.
 
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Naomi25

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Hi Naomi,
You know more about this than I ever will since I'm not that interested; however, I do agree with your points above.

I've never even heard of this marriage supper. John had visions,,,we're not supposed to take them literally. Some could be understood because they're based on other scripture, and some could be debated. I don't understand the value of debating a vision.

So I encourage you since I can't participate too much but agree with you.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb really only appears in Revelation. There are multiple references to the Church being the Bride, of course, and also references to a great wedding feast in many of Christ's parables. But specifically, the Supper, like the Millennium, we see only briefly. So it's a little hard to know much about it, or build major ideas off it. I think we can safely say that the Bride will be there, as will Christ, and there will be a celebration! All good, as far as i'm concerned!

I find it convincing, myself, in terms of John's visions, and how we are to understand them, to see them as symbolic. The book is, after all, apocalyptic literature. There are ample examples in the OT alone how words can be used to paint pictures of actual or spiritual realities. So, being faithful to that genre, we must read it as John intended us to. Even those who dogmatically stick to "literal" interpretation cannot, or do not, hold true to their own hermueneutic at all times. After all, they do not teach that when Jesus returns, he will have a giant sword sticking out of his mouth! Even they understand that that is symbolic for how the Word of God cuts like a two edged sword!
I do understand the appeal of the 'literal' interpretation, but I think it can get us into trouble. And...how are we not stunned and amazed that through John, we are given a glimpse of what is happening in heaven?! Christ has pealed back the veil, so to speak, and revealed to us spiritual realities that will soon become physical ones! Amen, bring it on!
 
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GodsGrace

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The Marriage Supper of the Lamb really only appears in Revelation. There are multiple references to the Church being the Bride, of course, and also references to a great wedding feast in many of Christ's parables. But specifically, the Supper, like the Millennium, we see only briefly. So it's a little hard to know much about it, or build major ideas off it. I think we can safely say that the Bride will be there, as will Christ, and there will be a celebration! All good, as far as i'm concerned!

I find it convincing, myself, in terms of John's visions, and how we are to understand them, to see them as symbolic. The book is, after all, apocalyptic literature. There are ample examples in the OT alone how words can be used to paint pictures of actual or spiritual realities. So, being faithful to that genre, we must read it as John intended us to. Even those who dogmatically stick to "literal" interpretation cannot, or do not, hold true to their own hermueneutic at all times. After all, they do not teach that when Jesus returns, he will have a giant sword sticking out of his mouth! Even they understand that that is symbolic for how the Word of God cuts like a two edged sword!
I do understand the appeal of the 'literal' interpretation, but I think it can get us into trouble. And...how are we not stunned and amazed that through John, we are given a glimpse of what is happening in heaven?! Christ has pealed back the veil, so to speak, and revealed to us spiritual realities that will soon become physical ones! Amen, bring it on!
Agreed. Funny about the sword!
I wish I had a church that taught this. A church I went to years ago did some teaching on this but it was so long ago I can't remember anything.

The marriage supper, of course, reminds me of Mathew 22.
I do understand about the church being the Bride. I do wish I understood it more...in a deeper way, I mean. Sometimes I feel like I'm skimming on the surface.

I read a book you might like. It's written by Scott Hahn and is about Revelation.
The Lamb's Supper.

It's going to mention the Catholic Mass and compare it to revelation; but it was very good. I had a difficult time finishing it because I kept making notes! I was Catholic so I understood it well, I don't know your situation, but you should give it a try. It's an easy read.

In the meantime, I'll read along and gain as much info as I can.

I agree that it's not to be interpreted literally, except for just a few paragraphs, or chapters I should say. Maybe the first 3 or 4.

(I also have a problem with Daniel --- guess I don't like to think about the end!)
 
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bbyrd009

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So which Day was He speaking of ? The Day Of The Lord?
my guess is that a reinforcing statement for Understand I AM is being inserted, "today" being another way to ref "here/now."
This is the day that the Lord has made, iow; contrasted with our current concept of "day of the Lord."
And, if you think about it, even reflected in "today has enough trouble in it."

also full disclosure, we really don't know what day that was, and ppl most likely do not do much or any talking hanging on a cross anyway, and imo the speech is strictly for our consumption and also contrived, but experts have stated that after day 1 it would be very hard to talk, pretty much impossible to speak in sentences i guess
 
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GodsGrace

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my guess is that a reinforcing statement for Understand I AM is being inserted, "today" being another way to ref "here/now."
This is the day that the Lord has made, iow; contrasted with our current concept of "day of the Lord."
And, if you think about it, even reflected in "today has enough trouble in it."
bb, if Jesus says TODAY, you will be with Me in paradise, we have to accept what He said. We can't make it mean something else.
Jesus died that same day.
The soldiers broke the legs of those not dead because it was almost the Sabbath.
This is not a mystery...
The thief also died that very same day.

Luke 23:43
John 19:31-34
 
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bbyrd009

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We can't make it mean something else.
we can't, i agree, but you can't tell me who recorded all this either; the Book says everyone fled. You do not know what day that was, and neither do i. Neither of us knows how virtually impossible it apparently is to state an audible sentence after hanging on a cross for 48 hours plus, either. Etc.

So imo that is the beauty of the statement; you may take it as logically as you like. My position nowadays is that you will end up not even making logical sense, and a diff approach is called for, and groups of 2 and/or 3 have a certain significance that should be understood, but bam interpret as you see fit. You just might contemplate that "hidden from the wise" must also be coinciding here, also "I speak in parables," so see that a case can be made for something meaning something else.

but a point i'd like to make here is that you don't have to decide right this second lol; no immediate conclusions need to be reached ok. Most likely we are both wrong in some detail imo anyway. The point is not to "be right" here imo
 

bbyrd009

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Taken

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Very briefly ~ rounded general timeframe

Timeline of mankind
.....0 day -4,000 years
.....no knowledge of a Name of Gods Word
......no knowledge of Gods Word in the Flesh

......AFTER 4,000 years
......knowledge of Gods Word appearing
......mankind seeing a flesh man
......flesh man CALLED by the name Jesus
.......mankind reveals this is Lamb of God
.......Angels reveal this is Son of God
.......God in Heaven reveals;
.........this man is God on Earth
.........God on Earth is Called Christ

.......Thee Lamb, Son, Christ, God..remains in the Flesh, Seen, for about 33 years, on Earth.

.......then ascends up to the clouds.
.......His glorified Body went Up to Heaven
.......For next 2,000 years His Spirit ENTERS
..........earthly Flesh men HE Converts.

Nearing the End of those 2,000 years, He Bodily descends from Heaven TO THE CLOUDS and Calls Up To the Clouds His Converted. They rise up in "their glorified bodies" and meet "their Lord" in the Air.

For 7 years there is:
A great mix of Teaching:
Gods Word And Satan influence.
Those mortals left on Earth will be choosing which they elect to believe And choosing IF THEY want to Submit their Life TO God Or Not.
Most mortals left on Earth shall physically/ie Bodily DIE.

Of Those who elect To Submit during the 7 years, they shall also FOREVER be with the Lord.

End of 2,000 years, also ending of 7 years...
The Lord With Many of His Saints descend from the clouds To the Earth And Accomplish a Division For a 1,000 yr timeframe.

Of Those who reject and submit to Satan they shall Lose their opportunity To be With the Lord. Their bodies killed. Their living souls sent to hell for 1000 years to await battle, defeat and judgement.

The Remaining mortals believing God... not submitting to either...
The Lord or Satan....

Shall remain on the Earth In their mortal bodies and repopulate the Earth for 1,000 years.

They live a mortal life, tilling the soil, laboring to supply their food and shelter.

Also during that 1000 years the Lord and His Saints are occupying The Lords Kingdom on Earth. The Lords Saints shall serve the Lord as ministers to the mortals.

End of 1000 years Satan loosed.
Some of the remaining mortals ..
.... Stand WITH the Lord...some with Satan.
..... The battle to end All battles commences.
..... men and spirits Against God shall Fall
..... men and spirits With God shall Prevail
..... then the final judgement and sentencing

Then the Final Division, The final Clean-up, The final purification.

ALL Corruption Of;
The Heavens
The Earth
Spirits
Mankind....

Shall be destroyed and departed From converted men, the earth and the Heavens and thereafter FOREVER the Heavens, Earth, spirits. Mankind, Beasts/ Animals with the Lord....shall live in harmony WITH their their Lord, their God.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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bbyrd009

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bb, if Jesus says TODAY, you will be with Me in paradise, we have to accept what He said. We can't make it mean something else.
ok then you also need to accept that after you "die," at baptism iow, you are in paradise. See, symbology is being used constantly, words that we define in the flesh are being used parab...as parables to describe spiritual concepts, and you have to make the connections. When the logical cannot be made to even make logical sense, another pov is called for imo. But as long as "baptism" = "infant head sprinkling" or some other antiScriptural perspective, the connections cannot be made. Baptism = death/rebirth, not membership in a club. Baptism is not a ritual, it is IRL. Now there is a meaningful ritual that commemorates this, but fwiw Prots generally go into that clueless too, i certainly don't recall any associations to death being mentioned at mine; but it doesn't matter imo, as baptism is accomplished IRL and not in a ritual anyway.

So to be clear, imo any ritual baptism done in what we now call a "church" is not at all what Scripture means when It says "baptism."
 
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Taken

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The event in Thes of calling up, is regarding the Church.
The Church is Christs Church.
Christ's Church are all men who are Converted, in Christ By Christ.
It is the Church, THOSE men, who Are The Bride.
The marriage is a celebration Of those men To Christ..(His Church), And He Their Lord And God.

Christ is With His Church, has been for nearly 2,000 years. Bodily with some, Spiritually with all.

Christ is not calling all believers or all saints His Bride. He is calling His Converted, His Church, His Bride.

The marriage Is Only between Christ and "His" Converted.

It is not talking about....
OT saints or men becoming SAVED During the Tribulation.

Men who become Saved during the Tribulation are not His Church or His Bride. They become saints and they shall be in Heaven worshiping God day and night.
OT men Saved saints are not His bride or His Church...
Rev 7:13 -14 15

OT men who believed in God UNTIL THEIR END of physical Life are O T saints already joined with God. They shall be called guests and witnesses of the Marriage, ie the consecration, of the union of Christ's Church unto Christ.
Rev 19:9

Those in Christ ARE Christ's Church.
It is Those who hear His voice.
It is those He calls (just as prescribed in a Scriptural Jewish wedding), Him calling His Bride....and the Bride having made herself ready WAITING For His call that she goes TO her Groom for the Celebration OF the wedding with guests and witnesses observing.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Taken

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ok then you also need to accept that after you "die," at baptism iow, you are in paradise.

Paradise IS where the Tree of Life Is.
The Tree of Life Sustains...ie KEEPS FOREVER ALIVE those who Eat of the Tree of Life.

1) TofL was in The Garden.
Adam did not eat of it....they died

2) Tof L was in Comfort side of Hell.
It sustained the life of all the faithful to God, all being with The soul of Abraham the Faithful

3) TofL was in the comfort side of hell the day Jesus And the thief Bodily died...and Both their souls went to Paradise...ie where the TofL was.

4) TofL now in Heaven. It sustains the life of Faithful souls departed from their physically dead bodies.

5) The TofL shall be located next and lastly in Gods new City, Jerusalem.
Rev 21
Rev 22
Rev 22:2 &14


God Bless,
Taken
 

Helen

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Does Your Church Teach About the Rapture(Catching up) Heaven, Hell, Prophecy,Last Days??
Or is your church little more than a semi-private social club?
When was the last Sunday you heard a sermon about the Rapture(Catching up) Heaven, Hell, Prophecy,.Last Days??

Or does your church teach lets all just be happy and we are all OK and I am OK so no worries??


Back to the OP
For one..lets get something straight...
1) it is "Not" "our church" ,Your Church, or any other persons church.
The church is Gods Church.

And yes, we can agree than 'man' preaches....but just because he stands on his hind legs and parrots what he was taught, does not mean that he is speaking for God!!! And most doesn't even preach under the anointing of God!
2) We don't 'have to' go to church to hear messages from God..
If by now we have not grown spiritually enough to hear from God for ourself..
..then there is very little help your you!!
God expects us to grow-up, not continually be spoon fed be someone.

In these last days, God help us if we have not matured enough to stand on our own feet in the power of The Holy Spirit.
Dark days are coming boys and girls... we need to be mature and ready.

The majority of the Church has been poisoned by rubbish eating...woe betide those who are expecting to be zapped out of what is around the corner.
It will not happen.
God has sent His Holy Spirit to empower us to stand in the evil day.
Not be snatched out!!!

Eph 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked."
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God"


We are fully equipped. Use what God has given us.
 

bbyrd009

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ok you are making it really hard to respond by breaking the software here, and impossible to trackback to follow the convo.
I'm not even sure how you are doing this, as hitting "reply" takes you to the correct window? Near as i can figure you are doing a highlight of a snippet, then hitting reply, then erasing the /QUOTE or something?

"Paradise IS where the Tree of Life Is."
yes, and both of these are accessible to you right now imo,
and Jesus Christ was speaking from Paradise, at that moment.
10So I take pleasure in weaknesses, insults, catastrophes, persecutions, and in pressures, because of Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
 
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Taken

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I've never even heard of this marriage supper. John had visions,,,we're not supposed to take them literally. Some could be understood because they're based on other scripture, and some could be debated. I don't understand the value of debating a vision.



Literal or even understanding has nothing to do with those things.
Those things Hinge on one thing.....
Which is;
Does an individual TRUST to believe it IS Gods TRUTH...(whether or not it makes sense to their Mind or if they understand it)..... or not.....


Visions from God to men in the OT were unknown/ secret Truths being revealed to men.

Jesus' Parables Were unknown/Secret Truths being revealed from His mouth.

Visions from Jesus' Appointed and Converted Apostles Were unknown/Secret Truths being revealed to men.

God Bless,
Taken