Does Your Church Teach About the Rapture(Catching up) Heaven, Hell, Prophecy?

[bbyrd009]

?

so i would basically wonder how you address "the kingdom does not come by observation," and then suggest that you/we take note of the...mental gymnastics that you will be going thru imo to resolve the dilemma, "paradise is not the kingdom" or something similar i guess. I've also heard "they don't have eyes, to observe." :/

 

[GodsGrace]

we can't, i agree, but you can't tell me who recorded all this either; the Book says everyone fled. You do not know what day that was, and neither do i. Neither of us knows how virtually impossible it apparently is to state an audible sentence after hanging on a cross for 48 hours plus, either. Etc.

So imo that is the beauty of the statement; you may take it as logically as you like. My position nowadays is that you will end up not even making logical sense, and a diff approach is called for, and groups of 2 and/or 3 have a certain significance that should be understood, but bam interpret as you see fit. You just might contemplate that "hidden from the wise" must also be coinciding here, also "I speak in parables," so see that a case can be made for something meaning something else.

but a point i'd like to make here is that you don't have to decide right this second lol; no immediate conclusions need to be reached ok. Most likely we are both wrong in some detail imo anyway. The point is not to "be right" here imo

The point is never to be right. But we do have to discuss differences.
You keep saying Jesus was on the cross for 48 hours. How do you come up with that? I gave you scripture to show that it was not even one day.

As to who recorded it...who recorded anything?
Maybe Peter. Maybe John. Maybe Mary. What difference does it make?

As to the two or three gathered in His name, I agree that it most probably has nothing to do with prayer, but with the decision of the church for those that went to the pastor. Different idea altogether.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Can not help you with something I did not claim.

Then show me where SCRIPTURE teaches that Jesus will come back to "snatch away" His Church before the coming Tribulations.

Why didn't your Protestant Fathers teach this??

 

[GodsGrace]

same Guy Who said "the kingdom is within you?"

should tell you all you need to know GG

I know the wolves will rush in as soon as I leave, not sparing the flock

The Kingdom is within us.
WE make up the Kingdom. It's our new nature, or, I should say our old nature made better by the Holy Spirit -- put into submission by Him and made to honor God and obey Him as best we could.

The Kingdom is within us and outside of us. We believe it with our heart and believe it IS possible to attain, and we spread it throughout the world we come in contact with. It is BOTH inside and outside. It is BOTH a spiritual reality and also a true reality if many of us would just practice it in our daily lives...it would make life better for everyone; even unbelievers.

Yes. Many wolves rushed in. Lucky for us the church was there to stop them.
Many heresies that were denied access to the church of God.

Even today, we're bombarded with heresies that many Christians believe.
Nothing has changed...man wants an easy way out.

 

[Taken]

Back to the OP
For one..lets get something straight...
1) it is "Not" "our church" ,Your Church, or any other persons church.
The church is Gods Church.

Agree.

And yes, we can agree than 'man' preaches....but just because he stands on his hind legs and parrots what he was taught, does not mean that he is speaking for God!!! And most doesn't even preach under the anointing of God!
2) We don't 'have to' go to church to hear messages from God..[
If by now we have not grown spiritually enough to hear from God for ourself..

Agree.

..then there is very little help your you!!
God expects us to grow-up, not continually be spoon fed be someone.

Disagree. Unless a created man has Become God Himself, there is always more for man to Learn.

In these last days, God help us if we have not matured enough to stand on our own feet in the power of The Holy Spirit.
Dark days are coming boys and girls... we need to be mature and ready.

Seems you did not consider...daily babes are being born, teens becoming men, that shall be the case to the resurrection....and consideration of "their" maturing timeframe....certainly may not be what you are considering pertaining to yourself.

The majority of the Church has been poisoned by rubbish eating...woe betide those who are expecting to be zapped out of what is around the corner.
It will not happen.
God has sent His Holy Spirit to empower us to stand in the evil day.

.

Not be snatched out!!!

God has empowered His Faithful that they Can Not Be claimed by Satan.

Those who are Converted Are Spiritually With the Lord. He shall also claim His Faithful Bodily.

why?
Because the Lord Shall Allow the Anti-Christ and False Prophet time to gather Those together who accept Them" Instead of Christ.
Why?
Because They are given Authority over the Earth.

A Converted man is Forever With The Lord.
The Lord does not Return to Earth, Step foot on the Earth until the End of Seven Years.

He returns differebnt than His first coming.
His First was: as the Son of man.
His Power, Christ was revealed while on earth.
He ascended as The Son of Man And The Christ/ Power.
He sets His foot on Earth as:
The Son of man AND Christ the Power.

His saints Are not on earth without Him.
His Saints come to earth With Him, with Power.....Because Christ is going to battle For His property EARTH...(that He allowed Satan to have complete Authority over for a little while).

Disagree that the Lord leaves His Living People ON Earth while He is Purifying His Earth with Fire....Just as God did not leave His People ON the Earth when He was cleansing the Earth with Water.

Eph 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked."
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God"

We are fully equipped. Use what God has given us.

You may have become fully equipped....but HAVE All of His converted become fully equipped?

You can Have the tools give you, but do you Always use them?

Agree Service is a huge part for revealing HOW a man has used the armor.

Do you think a man like Billy Graham and a man walking to the execution chamber giving his life to the Lord......both HAVE The Armor of God? They do. However Billy for a lifetime Used that Armor. Thus Skilled with the Armor he was given.

Jesus IS coming to the Earth To Battle For His Earth. He does Not bring All of His Saints with Him into Battle. He brings the skilled WHO HAVE ALREADY proved their ability to use the Armor.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

ok you are making it really hard to respond by breaking the software here, and impossible to trackback to follow the convo.
I'm not even sure how you are doing this, as hitting "reply" takes you to the correct window? Near as i can figure you are doing a highlight of a snippet, then hitting reply, then erasing the /QUOTE or something?

Quoting only what I am responding to...

"Paradise IS where the Tree of Life Is."
yes, and both of these are accessible to you right now imo,
and Jesus Christ was speaking from Paradise, at that moment.
10So I take pleasure in weaknesses, insults, catastrophes, persecutions, and in pressures, because of Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Agee. I Already ate from that Tree.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

so i would basically wonder how you address "the kingdom does not come by observation," and then suggest that you/we take note of the...mental gymnastics that you will be going thru imo to resolve the dilemma, "paradise is not the kingdom" or something similar i guess. I've also heard "they don't have eyes, to observe." :/

I simply say Paradise Is where saved souls are because the Lord Is With Saved souls.
And that The Tree of Life is in Paradise and Where Saved souls Are...Which The Tree of Life is the FOOD that sustains the Life of that soul, and the Fruit Of the Tree of Life Is Jesus, Who IS Life.

 

[Nancy]

What are you talking about bb?
Jesus died on the same day.
THAT day the thief would be with Him in Paradise; which is Abraham's Bossom.
TILL Jesus freed those waiting there and then they went to heaven.
This is taught in mainline Christianity. I like traditional, mainline Christianity...I don't care for modern ideas that have come about in the past 200 to 500 years ago.
I believe the early church fathers knew best what Jesus wanted to teach.

Agreed....EXCEPT that I don't believe they were ALL that gtreat and we should be open to all thinhs the Spirit chooses to reveal. The earlt Church fathers were not always right. Just look at Agustus!

Yes. I believe we go where our places are immediately upon death.
Most theologians believe this...not all. Some believe in soul sleep. And when those souls wake up, it'll feel IMMEDIATE anyway.

The priests I know who have studied theology believe we go with God upon death.
I don't think souls sleep. They're either alive always, or they die upon the death of the body and never wake up again.

How would you explain supernatural experiences if souls go to sleep?
By this I mean persons that have seen phantoms and the such. There are situations for which there is no explanation other than that someone has crossed some kind of "wall". Hate to sound a bit nutty, but you do hear some pretty odd things.

Plus, it's biblical. Didn't Jesus say THIS VERY DAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.

I'm not discussing what Paradise is, but that that very day, the thief would be there.

BTW- I love your avatar! That baby is so cute I wanna bite her head!!! Hahahaha! Did Rollo chose this one for you?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes. I believe we go where our places are immediately upon death.

all go to the same place
the kingdom does not come by observation
13 But the king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" "I see a spirit form coming up out of the earth," the woman answered.

 

[Taken]

Then show me where SCRIPTURE teaches that Jesus will come back to "snatch away" His Church before the coming Tribulations.

Show me where Jesus Is On The Earth During The Tribulations.

Why didn't your Protestant Fathers teach this??

Why are You declaring FatherS for me?
And then, why are You asking me about what these supposed fathers taught?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Show me where Jesus Is On The Earth During The Tribulations.

What does Jesus on earth have to do with the "Rapture"??
Jesus won't return to earth until His 2nd coming - at the END (1 Thess. 4:17).

Why are You declaring FatherS for me?
And then, why are You asking me about what these supposed fathers taught?

Because YOU have followed their precepts and traditions.
You put your faith in THEM instead of Christ (Luke 10:16) . . .

 

[Nancy]

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb really only appears in Revelation. There are multiple references to the Church being the Bride, of course, and also references to a great wedding feast in many of Christ's parables. But specifically, the Supper, like the Millennium, we see only briefly. So it's a little hard to know much about it, or build major ideas off it. I think we can safely say that the Bride will be there, as will Christ, and there will be a celebration! All good, as far as i'm concerned!

I find it convincing, myself, in terms of John's visions, and how we are to understand them, to see them as symbolic. The book is, after all, apocalyptic literature. There are ample examples in the OT alone how words can be used to paint pictures of actual or spiritual realities. So, being faithful to that genre, we must read it as John intended us to. Even those who dogmatically stick to "literal" interpretation cannot, or do not, hold true to their own hermueneutic at all times. After all, they do not teach that when Jesus returns, he will have a giant sword sticking out of his mouth! Even they understand that that is symbolic for how the Word of God cuts like a two edged sword!
I do understand the appeal of the 'literal' interpretation, but I think it can get us into trouble. And...how are we not stunned and amazed that through John, we are given a glimpse of what is happening in heaven?! Christ has pealed back the veil, so to speak, and revealed to us spiritual realities that will soon become physical ones! Amen, bring it on!

Very good post!
Eschatology is what first got me interested in all things God. You seem to be very well versed on this subject. Thank you for sharing!
Blessings,-nancy

 

[Taken]

What does Jesus on earth have to do with the "Rapture"??
Jesus won't return to earth until His 2nd coming - at the END (1 Thess. 4:17).

So your answer to the question, Will Jesus be present On the Earth during the Tribulations IS NO, and then He Returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.....correct?

Because YOU have followed their precepts and traditions.
You put your faith in THEM instead of Christ (Luke 10:16) . . .

And WHO exactly is making this Testimony For Me ? You or me? The answers is You.

Where do you get your Authority To Make Testimonies FOR me?

 

[Enoch111]

Even during the Tribulation period, when you say this Marriage of the Lamb will happen, not "all" saints are in heaven, are they?

The Tribulation saints are all martyred and are then resurrected after the Second Coming of Christ.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

We are dealing with the Bride of Christ, the Church, which become the Wife of the Lamb.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev 19:7-9).

 

[Naomi25]

will be there, has been there, is there right now, yes

Hey! Mark this day...we agree!

 

[Naomi25]

Very good post!
Eschatology is what first got me interested in all things God. You seem to be very well versed on this subject. Thank you for sharing!
Blessings,-nancy

Thanks, but no...not really. I've collected a bit of info along the way, but too often I feel like I've got more questions than answers. Some weeks I feel like I've landed solidly on one view of end time events...then something will happen, or someone will raise a point, and that will have me thinking again. On one hand, that means that I'm fairly open to the different opinions, but on the other hand, it makes me feel like I'm pretty "wishy-washy" on the whole thing. I want to come at it all with a bit more conviction, but as much as I pray on it all, all I seem to hear in return is a quiet, but persistent "watch, wait, search." So that's what I'm doing!!

 

[Naomi25]

The Tribulation saints are all martyred and are then resurrected after the Second Coming of Christ.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

We are dealing with the Bride of Christ, the Church, which become the Wife of the Lamb.
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev 19:7-9).

Where in scripture does it imply that all "Tribulation Saints" will be martyred before the second Coming? In fact, I would say that there are verses that suggest otherwise:


[21] For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [22] And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. [23] Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. - Matthew 24:21–23

This tells us that in that time, God will bring it to an end before they are all killed. And it is for the sake of the elect, so we must surmise that they are still present there as well.
So...we are still presented with the problem of Christians being on Earth, and in heaven, at the time of the "Supper".

 

[bbyrd009]

I want to come at it all with a bit more conviction

tbh i'm becoming convinced that the def of that word has been warped for us too. We just did a brief look at it, you see that?

 

[Nancy]

Thanks, but no...not really. I've collected a bit of info along the way, but too often I feel like I've got more questions than answers. Some weeks I feel like I've landed solidly on one view of end time events...then something will happen, or someone will raise a point, and that will have me thinking again. On one hand, that means that I'm fairly open to the different opinions, but on the other hand, it makes me feel like I'm pretty "wishy-washy" on the whole thing. I want to come at it all with a bit more conviction, but as much as I pray on it all, all I seem to hear in return is a quiet, but persistent "watch, wait, search." So that's what I'm doing!!

Oh gosh, yes...that watch and wait is VERY hard for me as I'm a spaz in my mind and do everything fast, talk, walk, work...over the years though, The Lord has given me patience with Spiritual things. Check out this man names Chuck Missler, he goes VERY deep. here is a video @"ByGrace" shared several days back, it's by Chuck M. and only 2 minutes long...Oh how I would love that kind of knowledge and tenacity to be so deep into our Amazing God!

be blessed my friend and never give up om that passion!
In His Name!
-nancy

 

[Taken]

Where in scripture does it imply that all "Tribulation Saints" will be martyred before the second Coming? In fact, I would say that there are verses that suggest otherwise:


[21] For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [22] And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. [23] Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. - Matthew 24:21–23

This tells us that in that time, God will bring it to an end before they are all killed. And it is for the sake of the elect, so we must surmise that they are still present there as well.
So...we are still presented with the problem of Christians being on Earth, and in heaven, at the time of the "Supper".

To understand How Scripture is written, you have to understand Scripture has an application to every individual person....and you are Not the same as every individual person.

When Scripture is speaking of particular people and that IS not what you are or do, then it would not apply to you.

The Lord has elected certain people for certain things. For example...

OT.. who would be the hearers, doers, recorders, writers, protesters, dismilaters, priests, of Gods Word and punishers for violators.....He Elect called Hebrews.

We see their triumphs and failures....
We also see other individuals / groups being introduced OF How They can become part of Gods elect.....without Being a Hebrew. or later, a person from out of the twelve Tribes, or later from the Tribe of Judah that separated, which is the Jews.

If you are a Gentile, there were also provisions made for you to become one of Gods Elect via Christ Jesus, who came to seek after the lost Jews. Ie Jews whose ancient history of God had been and was being corrupted by Gentiles in and of the world.

The Lord God sent Paul for Gentile's to hear about...God and Jesus the Christ.

But that does not mean Only Gentile's stood in Paul's crowds and listened, so did Jews and Paul addresses them also.... since...hearing testimony about Jesus was also new Knowledge being preached to the Jews.

Hebre laws applied to Hebrews.
Jewish Laws applied to Jews.
Jews WHO accepted Jesus are no longer under the Law.
Jews WHO reject Jesus AS the Christ remain subject To Their Jewish Law.
Gentile's were never under Hebrew or Jewish Laws, nor the consequences of violations.

Then there is something OUTSIDE of "the "LawS" in Scripture. It is called "Precepts".

Meh 9:14
Psalms mentioned many times
Isa 28: 10-13

Precepts are behaviors of man according to Gods Commands. They are things men learn little by little, practice, teach their children i.e. setting their foundation, and ALL may trip, but with God can get refreshed and keep improving.

God has an Elect group set aside to repopulate the Earth after the great Tribulation. They hide and escape taking the mark of the beast And escape physical Death amid the earths horrific distruction during the Trib ending.
They are chosen/elected for that specific purpose...just as each person fulfills a specific purpose, ALREADY known to God... and we simply discover as we physically live year after year.

Just saying... FIGURE out your own standing By what you believe and what the Lord says He shall DO for you Because of What you Believe and do, because it is Personal between You and Him....not you and Jo and Bill and George and Him.

God Bless,
Taken