Saved By Fear?

[GodsGrace]

John said God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. John 3:16
Jesus said if we love Him we will obey Him. John 14:15

Is love on our part necessary for salvation?

Can we be saved if we fear God? Or only if we love Him?

 

[APAK]

John said God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. John 3:16
Jesus said if we love Him we will obey Him. John 14:15

Is love on our part necessary for salvation?

Can we be saved if we fear God? Or only if we love Him?

GodsGrace:

Well this is a good topic because it tries to sort out what is, and who loves, and of what kind. It also entertains the religious notion that a mixture of our fear and our own love toward God means God considers us or even will bring us to salvation. He might feel sorry for us as we are trying to reach and know God. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Genuine love from our heart is a by-product of being on the narrow road to salvation, although it is first initiated and maintained in us by the agape (selfless) love of God; throughout the entire journey.

Having a healthy reverence for God does not bring salvation. It comes after we are saved; it is given by God as scripture says.

Our love is the mark, or the spiritual fruit generated by a saved person although it is not what creates a heart that is saved or regenerated. We are first saved with a love that God can only supply to the un-regenerated heart. Through the action of faith and acceptance by God we receive his spirit that also includes his love.

Love from an un-regenerated heart is akin to animal natural love, a love of self-protection, selfishness and with an agenda. It serves self and not God, or a true believer.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[aspen]

John said God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. John 3:16
Jesus said if we love Him we will obey Him. John 14:15

Is love on our part necessary for salvation?

Can we be saved if we fear God? Or only if we love Him?

Good topic. I believe love is the culture of salvation. Love drives out fear. 1 John 4:18

 

[amadeus]

@GodsGrace

Reading your OP what came to my mind was the time when hellfire and brimstone preaching was a common thing. Did anyone come to God as a result of being afraid of such messages instead of finding themselves immediately in love with God? Perhaps it is as I see many of the churches [assemblies] as being a good stepping stone for some to approach God early in their walk before they have really understood that something more is needed. The something more is Loving God.

If we start with fear but never progress to Love, do we have any reward from God coming?

I have perhaps had more questions than answers, but those are questions that I have. I believe Loving God is essential, but is fear of punishment or pain a possible way for a person to approach so that he can learn to Love?

 

[aspen]

@GodsGrace

Reading your OP what came to my mind was the time when hellfire and brimstone preaching was a common thing. Did anyone come to God as a result of being afraid of such messages instead of finding themselves immediately in love with God? Perhaps it is as I see many of the churches [assemblies] as being a good stepping stone for some to approach God early in their walk before they have really understood that something more is needed. The something more is Loving God.

If we start with fear but never progress to Love, do we have any reward from God coming?

I have perhaps had more questions than answers, but those are questions that I have. I believe Loving God is essential, but is fear of punishment or pain a possible way for a person to approach so that he can learn to Love?

I think there were more people involved in Christian tribalism.....unfortunately, their concept of fear based Christianity was superstitious - filled with big tent rvivals, alter calls, and penence in order to appease their image of God. Love is not necessary where appeasement is the rule

 

[amadeus]

I think there were more people involved in Christian tribalism.....unfortunately, their concept of fear based Christianity was superstitious - filled with big tent rvivals, alter calls, and penence in order to appease their image of God. Love is not necessary where appeasement is the rule

I do hear you on the Christian tribalism. It still exists today, I believe, in too many places. Too many people are more interested in establishing that their particular niche is the best one rather than in moving closer to whatever God really wants.

 

[Helen]

John said God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. John 3:16
Jesus said if we love Him we will obey Him. John 14:15

Is love on our part necessary for salvation?

Can we be saved if we fear God? Or only if we love Him?

This is a good topic. :)
I have been thinking about it since the other thread where you first mentioned it to @bbyrd009

After musing on it... I cannot see how love can possible come first.
It is a response. The Divine Romance. ( which in my book is what it is all about from Gen-Rev) Love responds to Love.

1 John 4 "We love Him because He first loved us.."

As for fear...for me fear came first..I feared so I began to seek..
I didn't fear hell. ( you know my thoughts on hell)
I feared the lack of God.
I feared being left outside of the gate of The City...
It was this that caused me to ask God questions. I "believed" in a God enough to trust that if I talked to Him He would answer me.
He did, through my own father and a dear old pastor.

It was only after I heard what Jesus had done to win us, that I fell in love with the creator of all things.
For many years I loved Him but it was a mixture of fear too. Fear of failing Him and getting struck off for some reason. Peace didn't come on that until I saw what the bible taught on grace.
As Aspen has already quoted...it is the perfect love which cast out fear.

Now the interesting question is , can and will someone be saved if they only have the fear?
On musing, I have to say yes I believe so.
If they ( like me) fear the loneliness and loss of God Himself.
I guess if they even fear hell...if the still come to God through Jesus, and " call on the name of the Lord" it says " they shall be saved"
I see no prerequisite that we must love God to be saved.
If they don't like most of us ever fall in love with God...it will be a bit of a miserable walk , ie, just fearing him...like living with a husband you are afraid of.
Personally , and you may not agree...If this was someones experience , then I would be talking to them and judging that they were dominated by some spirit that was hindering them from responding to the love of God, with love.

My two or three cents.

( now I can go "hither, thither and yon " tomorrow, in my busy day, without worrying and feeling like I missed out reading and posting in your thread
It will have moved on greatly by the time I get back here tomorrow evening)

 

[pia]

.it is the perfect love which cast out fear.

Sorry for popping in here, but you made me think....I have gone through many a time when I was beginning to fear, because I was afraid of letting Him down and a bunch of other times and things....It has taken Him a long long long time, to get me to a place of not yielding to what is essentially unbelief, even if we don't see it......The minute I 'fear' I am NOT facing Him, this is when I am either a little sideways, a lot sideways or even with my back to Him ( He explained that quite carefully to me )....We need to not fear, so that we can be face to face with Him and receive His Love which makes us strong...Even still...As you know I had been an atheist, and IT WAS pure terror that made me call out to Him ( having found myself in that awful place )...I do however remember a thought I had, which was that He was the Only one, who could help me.....Now where that thought came from I didn't know, because it certainly wasn't something I knew by myself....But I believed it, and before i could blink I was back in my body, and then all that came next.....Once I saw the Love, I knew that fearing Him, would be opposite to what He was showing me, and it truly became that a couple of times in my walk, when I sadly let fear and even embarrassment over myself rob me of precious time with Him, as I pulled back.....fear always pulls one back or makes one confrontational...
I'm realizing perhaps I should have written this in an e-mail, but hopefully not many will bother with me here..
Bless you....:) I will write a little extra in an e-mail

 

[pia]

whatever God really wants

Amen to that ! It also occurred to me that where Love is, there is no need for penance ( or whatever folk want to do)
Love never fails !

 

[pia]

I have perhaps had more questions than answers, but those are questions that I have. I believe Loving God is essential

I think we all do, if we're honest....One thing did occur to me...We are informed that through Christ we have been delivered from the curse of Adam......The first consequences of Eve and Adams actions were that they hid themselves because they feared and felt ashamed......So surely we must come to a place where His Love 'into our lives' supersedes that old curse and we stop feeling ashamed and stop hiding and fearing Him......I cannot claim to always be in that amazing 'place' with Him, as various parts of the world and my own flesh gets in the way a lot....But the times when I do?......Wow, there is nothing like it in this world !!!...Not even the birth of my children nor my grandson can come even close to that, not being young and silly in love either......However that is the closest human emotions and reactions I have had in life, compared to the times with Him, face to face with Him, with no fear, with no shame, with nothing between us at all....Just total and complete Love, safety, peace and rest.....It is simply wondrous !
Even knowing what is possible, sadly doesn't always assure me of being able to push out all the 'wrong stuff' in order to let the pure Light in, in which He dwells........Wish I had a button or a quick fix for these times lol......But He patiently stays with me..Praise His Holy Name...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Saved by fear? Yes.

This fear I couldn't understand because I confused it with my step-fathers religious cruel behavior. I thought, if this is God then I don't want it. But now, I realize my step-father did me a favor by teaching me to hate evil. Hate of evil has to come first. Doesn't everyone hate evil? No. Some seem to love it.

Seeing God's love and mercy comes after hating evil. The more I see God's love, the more I hate evil.

Proverbs 8:13
[13] The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.


Job 28:28
[28] And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.


Psalm 25:14-15
[14] The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. [15] Mine eyes are ever toward the Lord ; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.

Psalm 33:18
[18] Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psalm 36:1-2
[1] The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. [2] For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

 

[tabletalk]

I think we all do, if we're honest....One thing did occur to me...We are informed that through Christ we have been delivered from the curse of Adam......The first consequences of Eve and Adams actions were that they hid themselves because they feared and felt ashamed......So surely we must come to a place where His Love 'into our lives' supersedes that old curse and we stop feeling ashamed and stop hiding and fearing Him......I cannot claim to always be in that amazing 'place' with Him, as various parts of the world and my own flesh gets in the way a lot....But the times when I do?......Wow, there is nothing like it in this world !!!...Not even the birth of my children nor my grandson can come even close to that, not being young and silly in love either......However that is the closest human emotions and reactions I have had in life, compared to the times with Him, face to face with Him, with no fear, with no shame, with nothing between us at all....Just total and complete Love, safety, peace and rest.....It is simply wondrous !
Even knowing what is possible, sadly doesn't always assure me of being able to push out all the 'wrong stuff' in order to let the pure Light in, in which He dwells........Wish I had a button or a quick fix for these times lol......But He patiently stays with me..Praise His Holy Name...

You said: "...face to face with Him,..."

I remember your description of the god who meets with you, face to face, occasionally. You call him Jesus. Flesh and bone.
The verses below seem to teach that you have the wrong god:
because the Scriptures say believers in Jesus only know in part, and see in a mirror dimly, until we see Him face to face.
And, we walk by faith, not by sight; knowing that what we can see is temporal, not eternal.
You claim to be there already, seeing Him face to face; so you have all knowledge, knowing just as Jesus knows.

From 1Corinthians 13:
8. Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace:

Well this is a good topic because it tries to sort out what is, and who loves, and of what kind. It also entertains the religious notion that a mixture of our fear and our own love toward God means God considers us or even will bring us to salvation. He might feel sorry for us as we are trying to reach and know God. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Genuine love from our heart is a by-product of being on the narrow road to salvation, although it is first initiated and maintained in us by the agape (selfless) love of God; throughout the entire journey.

Having a healthy reverence for God does not bring salvation. It comes after we are saved; it is given by God as scripture says.

Our love is the mark, or the spiritual fruit generated by a saved person although it is not what creates a heart that is saved or regenerated. We are first saved with a love that God can only supply to the un-regenerated heart. Through the action of faith and acceptance by God we receive his spirit that also includes his love.

Love from an un-regenerated heart is akin to animal natural love, a love of self-protection, selfishness and with an agenda. It serves self and not God, or a true believer.

Bless you,

APAK

I agree with your last paragraph.

I brought up Calvinism because it affects every thought of the person that believes that it's God who forces one to be saved by choosing that person.

So, for instance, I'd like to ask you what you think about a person who is endeavoring to serve God in their own way, be it the wrong way, maybe by works for instance, or going to church all the time (which can be a work), but does not have a soft heart toward God. Can that person be saved?

But, you see, if you say God picks whom He will save, the question becomes moot.

I'm beginning to lean toward the idea that if you don't feel love for Jesus, then it means you don't understand what He did, and perhaps you don't feel "close" to Him. It would be this closeness that saves.
Jesus said He and the Father are One, like we are to be one...that requires love.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Reading your OP what came to my mind was the time when hellfire and brimstone preaching was a common thing. Did anyone come to God as a result of being afraid of such messages instead of finding themselves immediately in love with God? Perhaps it is as I see many of the churches [assemblies] as being a good stepping stone for some to approach God early in their walk before they have really understood that something more is needed. The something more is Loving God.

If we start with fear but never progress to Love, do we have any reward from God coming?

I have perhaps had more questions than answers, but those are questions that I have. I believe Loving God is essential, but is fear of punishment or pain a possible way for a person to approach so that he can learn to Love?

As a little girl I started with the fire and brimstone.
I'd go to church for fear of going to hell if I didn't. So what good did it do me?

As I grew older, Christian songs became meaningful to me. I'd listen to the words and started to understand that God loves us. This is when I sincerely started to "look" for Him. Started to want Him in my life. This is the state I was in just before salvation.

I do believe that some could fear God and still be saved, but I'd have to agree that it has to progress from there.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a good topic. :)
I have been thinking about it since the other thread where you first mentioned it to @bbyrd009

After musing on it... I cannot see how love can possible come first.
It is a response. The Divine Romance. ( which in my book is what it is all about from Gen-Rev) Love responds to Love.

1 John 4 "We love Him because He first loved us.."

As for fear...for me fear came first..I feared so I began to seek..
I didn't fear hell. ( you know my thoughts on hell)
I feared the lack of God.
I feared being left outside of the gate of The City...
It was this that caused me to ask God questions. I "believed" in a God enough to trust that if I talked to Him He would answer me.
He did, through my own father and a dear old pastor.

It was only after I heard what Jesus had done to win us, that I fell in love with the creator of all things.
For many years I loved Him but it was a mixture of fear too. Fear of failing Him and getting struck off for some reason. Peace didn't come on that until I saw what the bible taught on grace.
As Aspen has already quoted...it is the perfect love which cast out fear.

Now the interesting question is , can and will someone be saved if they only have the fear?
On musing, I have to say yes I believe so.
If they ( like me) fear the loneliness and loss of God Himself.
I guess if they even fear hell...if the still come to God through Jesus, and " call on the name of the Lord" it says " they shall be saved"
I see no prerequisite that we must love God to be saved.
If they don't like most of us ever fall in love with God...it will be a bit of a miserable walk , ie, just fearing him...like living with a husband you are afraid of.
Personally , and you may not agree...If this was someones experience , then I would be talking to them and judging that they were dominated by some spirit that was hindering them from responding to the love of God, with love.

My two or three cents.

( now I can go "hither, thither and yon " tomorrow, in my busy day, without worrying and feeling like I missed out reading and posting in your thread
It will have moved on greatly by the time I get back here tomorrow evening)

Great post and thoughts.
Now you've pulled me back to believing that, yes, one can fear God only but still be saved.
Doesn't the bible tell us that fearing God is the beginning of wisdom?
I always thought this fear meant respect...maybe there's a little of fear in there too?
Good analogy with the husband. If you fear a husband all your life, it makes for a bad relationship,,,but you're still married.

 

[GodsGrace]

Saved by fear? Yes.

This fear I couldn't understand because I confused it with my step-fathers religious cruel behavior. I thought, if this is God then I don't want it. But now, I realize my step-father did me a favor by teaching me to hate evil. Hate of evil has to come first. Doesn't everyone hate evil? No. Some seem to love it.

Seeing God's love and mercy comes after hating evil. The more I see God's love, the more I hate evil.

Proverbs 8:13
[13] The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.


Job 28:28
[28] And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.


Psalm 25:14-15
[14] The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. [15] Mine eyes are ever toward the Lord ; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.

Psalm 33:18
[18] Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psalm 36:1-2
[1] The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. [2] For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.

Good post, but have you noticed that all your postings about fear are verses from the OT?
Is this significant to you?

 

[APAK]

I agree with your last paragraph.

I brought up Calvinism because it affects every thought of the person that believes that it's God who forces one to be saved by choosing that person.

So, for instance, I'd like to ask you what you think about a person who is endeavoring to serve God in their own way, be it the wrong way, maybe by works for instance, or going to church all the time (which can be a work), but does not have a soft heart toward God. Can that person be saved?

But, you see, if you say God picks whom He will save, the question becomes moot.

I'm beginning to lean toward the idea that if you don't feel love for Jesus, then it means you don't understand what He did, and perhaps you don't feel "close" to Him. It would be this closeness that saves.
Jesus said He and the Father are One, like we are to be one...that requires love.

GodsGrace:

Of course, GodsGrace! That person can be saved because God has already chosen a time and place when this person shall reach out to him in his carnal spirit out of genuine need and yearning for him. He or she first reflects on the gospel and the significance of Jesus, the son of God. Not from his mind but of his heart, eventhough it is not yet re-generated.

Again, God knows our hearts and he knows we want to feel his love and presence, deep within us. It is a matter of not blatantly rejecting his love (for Christ) that is a killer whether we work salvation through deadly works or not, whether we have a hardened heart or not.

God only knows his own creation.

Yes, God does pick those that really and truly reach out to him without any agenda and selfish motives. It is that initial spark we exhibit toward God and his son. I see the Michelangelo painting when I describe this subject. A man reaching out to his creator in genuine love. God will always do the rest and restore him when God knows he is being sincere in the nth degree.

He/she gives his entire being to reach out and say, I love you God, my creator and my life. I know I cannot do it myself, I need you to show me. That’s basically what propelled me to this glorious journey I’m on today. It was a miracle, I say, a deliberate miracle that is in my heart today. It is God and I know it! (happy with tears..)

Bless you,

APAK

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Good post, but have you noticed that all your postings about fear are verses from the OT?
Is this significant to you?

I have to add a correction: when I said I hate evil. It is not people but actions.

Christ is in every word of the Old Testament. Should we read only the NT and not the OT? Should we read the OT and not the New? Both are an opportunity to know Him beyond measure. Can you be saved by fear only? Does the OT save? Does it not also depend upon the New Testament? All the Saints of the Old Testament saw afar off, they saw the crucifixion. Why not include their yearnings and calls for the Son of God to be raised?

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace:

Of course, GodsGrace! That person can be saved because God has already chosen a time and place when this person shall reach out to him in his carnal spirit out of genuine need and yearning for him. He or she first reflects on the gospel and the significance of Jesus, the son of God. Not from his mind but of his heart, eventhough it is not yet re-generated.

Again, God knows our hearts and he knows we want to feel his love and presence, deep within us. It is a matter of not blatantly rejecting his love (for Christ) that is a killer whether we work salvation through deadly works or not, whether we have a hardened heart or not.

God only knows his own creation.

Yes, God does pick those that really and truly reach out to him without any agenda and selfish motives. It is that initial spark we exhibit toward God and his son. I see the Michelangelo painting when I describe this subject. A man reaching out to his creator in genuine love. God will always do the rest and restore him when God knows he is being sincere in the nth degree.

He/she gives his entire being to reach out and say, I love you God, my creator and my life. I know I cannot do it myself, I need you to show me. That’s basically what propelled me to this glorious journey I’m on today. It was a miracle, I say, a deliberate miracle that is in my heart today. It is God and I know it! (happy with tears..)

Bless you,

APAK

It's wonderful to hear that you're on this glorious journey that will end with being with God forever.
Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

God does indeed know our heart. Whether it be fear or love, He will always be just.
Acts 17:31
31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[GodsGrace]

I have to add a correction: when I said I hate evil. It is not people but actions.

Christ is in every word of the Old Testament. Should we read only the NT and not the OT? Should we read the OT and not the New? Both are an opportunity to know Him beyond measure. Can you be saved by fear only? Does the OT save? Does it not also depend upon the New Testament? All the Saints of the Old Testament saw afar off, they saw the crucifixion. Why not include their yearnings and calls for the Son of God to be raised?

I'm sure everyone understood that you hate the evil.
We all do. Hate the sin...love the sinner.

As one reads the O.T., it becomes more and more clear that it's speaking about the coming Messiah, and that it is looking forward to this event.

Some, however, see the God of the O.T. as a God to be feared and the God of the N.T. a God to be loved. This, of course, is not true. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Hebrews 13:8; it's speaking of Jesus, Who was as real in the O.T. as the New. God is to be feared, in the sense of a healthy respect, and God was always to be loved and always desired the love of His people.
Hosea 6:6 ESV
Psalm 86:15
Proverbs 8:17 and so many more.