Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[Helen]

Okay. Under the Law, is subject TO the Law.
Meaning, if one does not DO as the Law provides, the Curses (sins) of the Law apply.

For one IN Christ, the words in the Law, teach HOW TO serve the Lord in a good manner, that glorifies His Name. With such man NOT being "subject to or under the law'.

Meaning - The "curses" (sins) were part of the Law, and such curse laws have no effect, ie do not apply, to a man IN Christ.

And every Law, that is accomplished, that glorifies Gods Name, still stand.
A man IN Christ can do those things, revealed IN THE LAW...and receive rewards and blessing.

And if such a man IN Christ, does not do those things....he loses the opportunity to have received rewards and blessing....but it is not a SIN, unto him (as it would be, for a Jew, under and subject to the Law).

IOW - we are not subject TO THE LAW.
We subject ourselves to CHRIST.

And the teachings of Good Behavior IN THE LAWS, are acceptable and glorifying to God, for men IN CHRIST to do.

God Bless,
Taken

====
Good one..clearer than I can ever say it! :)

 

[APAK]

Okay. Under the Law, is subject TO the Law.
Meaning, if one does not DO as the Law provides, the Curses (sins) of the Law apply.

For one IN Christ, the words in the Law, teach HOW TO serve the Lord in a good manner, that glorifies His Name. With such man NOT being "subject to or under the law'.

Meaning - The "curses" (sins) were part of the Law, and such curse laws have no effect, ie do not apply, to a man IN Christ.

And every Law, that is accomplished, that glorifies Gods Name, still stand.
A man IN Christ can do those things, revealed IN THE LAW...and receive rewards and blessing.

And if such a man IN Christ, does not do those things....he loses the opportunity to have received rewards and blessing....but it is not a SIN, unto him (as it would be, for a Jew, under and subject to the Law).

IOW - we are not subject TO THE LAW.
We subject ourselves to CHRIST.

And the teachings of Good Behavior IN THE LAWS, are acceptable and glorifying to God, for men IN CHRIST to do.

God Bless,
Taken

I understand all in what you are saying and agree..I may have a ? about when you say ".he loses the opportunity to have received rewards and blessing.." it seems minor in this discussion..

So my question still stands, why is James still under the Law when grace has been given to all believers in Christ, whether he/she be a Judahite, Judean or of of another foreign tribes or nation?

 

[Taken]

We are heirs at the moment be believe. There is no guarantee that we will remain heirs. We will receive our inheritance at the end of our life.
Ephesians 1:18
18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

The HOPE of His glory, the inheritance of His saints...

If you desire to teach about spiritual things, you should First learn separate heavenly things from earthly things, and identify each precisely.

"Believe" you say.
Earthy men believe in their minds.
Heavenly men believe in their hearts.

Nothing heavenly affects a man who believes in his mind, and not his heart.

"Heirs" you say.
Earthy men believing only in their minds,
Are not heirs, and do not receive an inheritance.

Heavenly men who believe in their hearts,
ARE forever heirs, and their inheritance, is received, AFTER the World is restored, and their inheritance IS LAND, in a restored World.

The "guarantee" IS absolute, FOR A MAN, WHO has subjected himself to Christ Jesus, by the thoughts in his Heart.

And there is NO inheritance promised or given or guaranteed, for a man WHO rejects subjecting himself to Christ Jesus, by the thoughts in his heart.

Your teaching is in error.

Men who receive the inheritance by promise, absolutely shall receive it.

And further, a soul and spirit who IS IN Christ, doesn't have an end of life. He is alive forever more.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Helen]

Interesting question.
Did Pharaoh fulfull scripture?
Did God harden his heart or was it already hardened?

Judas became the son of perdition. He listened to satan instead of God.
In this sense he did NOT do the will of God.
Jesus even told him to go quickly and do what he had planned.
John 13:27
So in THIS sense, yes, he did do the will of God.

But does doing the will of God bring one to commit suicide?
What do YOU think?
(you could have started off with an easy question!)

Lata...

As you say...interesting. :)

I doubt we’ll ever have all the answers ...because God hasn’t told us clearly.

So Judas did do all that he was prophesied to do.
Did he have a choice?
Someone had to do the job!
Could he have changed his mind at the end?

Did God have a Plan B ?
I can’t see in scripture that God ever used a plan B.

 

[Helen]

@APAK

You wrote to Taken. Quote:- I understand all in what you are saying and agree..I may have a ? about when you say ".he loses the opportunity to have received rewards and blessing.." it seems minor in this discussion..

Personally I think it is one of the most overlook thing. “Rewards and blessings” will not seem minor when we are in the kingdom! It was one of Paul top priorities. Maturity, fighting the good fight, running the race..pressing toward the goal... Not for salvation, that was already sure ....but for “rewards and blessings”
I believe the lack of , will be when we hear. “the wailing and gnashing of teeth”.... seeing what could have been, but isn’t .

Bless you ....H

 

[APAK]

As you say...interesting. :)

I doubt we’ll ever have all the answers ...because God hasn’t told us clearly.

So Judas did do all that he was prophesied to do.
Did he have a choice?
Someone had to do the job!
Could he have changed his mind at the end?

Did God have a Plan B ?
I can’t see in scripture that God ever used a plan B.

ByGrace:
As you know already there are differences of opinion even amongst brethren in Christ especially on 'non-critical' areas of scripture. We are all human.
I've been listening to the 'Judas act' for several days and I have an opinion which is different from ones I've heard to date.
Briefly: Judas was not aware he was going to defy Jesus days before the act. He was most probably a true believer although not of strong faith. He had one leg still in the world as Peter and other disciples had.

As Judas was 'a devil' at this time in that he was acting in accordance with his fallen human nature as Peter also was 'a devil' when he denied Jesus 3x. The translation in both places are the same. They were carelessly mistranslated because of translator bias toward THE DEVIL...Both Peter and Judas never had the devil or were never influenced by 'him' in any fashion. It was all their own doing...100%..and the devil never had Judas

Judas died a believer, although previously regretted his sin. Yes, it was already know of God before had like anyone's actions.

Rushing it..need to go for now..back later

APAK

APAK

 

[APAK]

@APAK

You wrote to Taken. Quote:- I understand all in what you are saying and agree..I may have a ? about when you say ".he loses the opportunity to have received rewards and blessing.." it seems minor in this discussion..

Personally I think it is one of the most overlook thing. “Rewards and blessings” will not seem minor when we are in the kingdom! It was one of Paul top priorities. Maturity, fighting the good fight, running the race..pressing toward the goal... Not for salvation, that was already sure ....but for “rewards and blessings”
I believe the lack of , will be when we hear. “the wailing and gnashing of teeth”.... seeing what could have been, but isn’t .

Bless you ....H

I think Taken and I think this is not what you are addressing here..gotta go..talk later

 

[Triumph1300]

Maturity, fighting the good fight, running the race..pressing toward the goal... Not for salvation, that was already sure ....but for “rewards and blessings”

Yes, good one!
Legalism in the church is every where these days.

"Works" comes as a result of salvation.
Salvation does not come as a result of works.

Of course now I'm gonna get it.......

 

[bbyrd009]

Yet, all of us have regular talks with dead people all around us, people who have not acknowledged and received Life from Jesus. Where is the line to be drawn, if a line is to be drawn on this lack of conversation? What is idle and what is not?

ah...well, which death is being discussed is delineated in the original. But i guess we have sects that believe one should not talk to those outside their belief system, too, huh. Not sure how they treat "be in the world but not of it," or "a ship at sea," but there you go

 

[Helen]

ByGrace:
As you know already there are differences of opinion even amongst brethren in Christ especially on 'non-critical' areas of scripture. We are all human.
I've been listening to the 'Judas act' for several days and I have an opinion which is different from ones I've heard to date.
Briefly: Judas was not aware he was going to defy Jesus days before the act. He was most probably a true believer although not of strong faith. He had one leg still in the world as Peter and other disciples had.

As Judas was 'a devil' at this time in that he was acting in accordance with his fallen human nature as Peter also was 'a devil' when he denied Jesus 3x. The translation in both places are the same. They were carelessly mistranslated because of translator bias toward THE DEVIL...Both Peter and Judas never had the devil or were never influenced by 'him' in any fashion. It was all their own doing...100%..and the devil never had Judas

Judas died a believer, although previously regretted his sin. Yes, it was already know of God before had like anyone's actions.

Rushing it..need to go for now..back later

APAK

APAK

Thank you!

Yay!! The best I have ever heard...love it!! :)

I couldn't say it in those words but "within me" believes that...always have, but could not cross to T's or dot the 'i''s as you have here.

An old preacher once said to me..."when you hear something, and it witnesses within and becomes 'life' within you...it is now yours...no need to quote me or anyone else...it is your truth, until or if God shows you something new on it."

So thanks...that is now " mine" :)

Bless you...Helen

 

[Helen]

"Works" comes as a result of salvation.
Salvation does not come as a result of works.

Amen!
All we can do is repeat it and repeat it until it finally sinks into some hearts. :)

 

[BreadOfLife]

Gods WILL is that men Become Saved.
Salvation is EFFECTED by one SUBJECTING themselves to Christ the Lord Jesus.

And the will of Christ is that we DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).
So, if you don't DO His will - you're not saved.

Works CAN ONLY be accomplished TWO WAYS.

One By Jews, Subject to the Law, who Believes in the Word of God, and Obeys the Laws that Glorifies God, and does not DO Works that Do not Glorify God.

THAT ^^^^, is precisely HOW OT men became, Saved, beloved, friends, blessed, faithful servants, etc. OF God.

Gentiles AND Some Jews (in Jesus' day and today), become Saved, beloved, friends, faithful servants, etc. OF God, "BY" Subjecting themselves TO Christ Jesus; WHO makes a COMPLETE internal CHANGE within the man, and Dwells with the man, TO KEEP HIM CHANGED!

And AGAIN: The will of Christ is that we DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).
So, if you don't DO His will - you're not saved.

Good works by a Jew, who believes in the Word of God, absolutely WILL Save him.
Any works by a Gentile, who believes in their heart Christ Jesus is the Word of God, will NOT Save them, but WILL gain them rewards.
It is solely their Belief in their heart in Christ Jesus, that Saves them

WRONG.

There is only ONE way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ.
Somebody who rejects Him cannot be saved.

Belief in the Word of God AND good Works, saves a Jew, according to their Law.

Belief in any mans Heart, Christ Jesus is the Word of God, and confession thereof, Shall Save Him.

Works are a Service unto God.

The Reasonsable Works/Service of a man subjecting himself TO the Word of God, ie Christ the Lord Jesus....IS;

Rom 12:1
....that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
Which IS your reasonable service.

It is Precisely one subjecting themselves; calling on the Lords name, believing in their heart, Christ Jesus, and confessing the same, is....HOW they are, by the Lords Power, made "holy", to accomplish their "reasonable service".

God Bless,
Taken

WRONG again.

In the story of the Gadarene Demoniacs - the DEMONS recognized Jesus as the Son of God (Matt. 8:28-34) - and you could HARDLY refer to a demon as "saved."

Your problem again is the cherry-picking of Scripture.
You MUST tall ALL of Scripture in context when formulating doctrine.

Scripture tells us that calling on the name of the Lord will save you (Rom. 10:13).
HOWEVER, it also says that NOT all who call upon his name shall be saved (Matt. 7:21).

Scripture says that if you BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved (Acts 16:312).
HOWEVER, it also says that even the DEMONS believe and tremble (James 2:19).

Salvation is only possible by obedience. DOING the will of the Father, being Baptized, works of mercy and charity, following His commandments - and believing in Him who saved you. In other words surrendering yourself to His will.

 

[BreadOfLife]

James was a Jew, and his brethren were Jews.

The Concept of a Jewish Messiah, was steeped in Jewish History.
The Concept of the Jewish Messiah, being on Earth in the likeness as a common man, was not what Jews were Expecting, thus this man Jesus, as the Jewish Messiah, was new to the Jews, AND the Gentiles, who were not steeped in Jewish history, their God, their laws, their traditions.

You need to learn how to divide the Word of Truth, of what applies to whom and why.

God Bless,
Taken

Good grief - James was a Jew but wasn't saved by the Law - and neither were his congregation.
The Law no longer applied to James OR his followers because they were in Christ, who FULFILLED the Law.

When James described what true faith was (belief AND works) - he was talking to born again Christians - not practicing Jews.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/QUOTE]
These people were in the same boat as Judas.
The followed Christ and fell away.

Jesus's remark of "I never knew you" is indicative of Peter's warning:
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Their LAST condition is worse than their first when they didn't know Him.

Don't just quote Scripture until you learn what it means.
Read it ALL in context.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BreadOfLife: it will take more that this to convince even a casual reader that your part or one-liners explain each verse. It is not convincing at all. I'm tempted to expand on what you have written, every one of the verse right now, although I won't. My intention is not to rock you needlessly as I know you seem to be sincere. Nevertheless, I can already see glaring holes in your very short cryptic answers....

Have you done much scripture study independently from reading Catechisms, listening to Catholic sermons, listening to priests and Catholic explanations of scripture? I venture to say you have not and I will volunteer my time to even go over any verse with you. Bible study is more that seizing a verse that seems to fit (cherry-picking) your belief model and the SAME conclusions each time based on you religious experience and religious wisdom. Bible study at least means praying to the spirit of God and working out the word of God faithfully and sincerely in your heart. Of course the rules of interpretation and meaning apply that also involves knowing the context, audience, writer/ speaker and knowledge of 2000 year old language and usage, and of course knowing which parts of scripture has be clearly altered over time.

Again Bless you, I just want to help...an ego is not my goal and shame on me if I did. My goal is to some how edify both of us with some common ground even if we have to agree to disagree. At least the effort was made.

You know I used to be a Catholic once, as part of mandatory religion. The nuns were excellent at teaching discipline, civics, manners and the way to live in the world. I was their pet...My Dad was a Catholic and I believe he was saved, maybe with little faith, I won't judge. I saw works of the spirit in him and lots of self-made worthless prideful works as well, as all of us at times. Regardless, he still has eternal salvation. He believed in his heart the faith and works of Jesus and showed this type of faith and works at times that showed evidence of his salvation. He would never admit though that he was saved in a non-Catholic way..he was a very proud man...he was a Roman Catholic and defended it with his dear life...


APAK

Thank you for your kindness, APAK - but all of this is simply a cop-out.
You won't address these verses because you have no explanation.

 

[Taken]

I understand all in what you are saying and agree..I may have a ? about when you say ".he loses the opportunity to have received rewards and blessing.." it seems minor in this discussion..

So my question still stands, why is James still under the Law when grace has been given to all believers in Christ, whether he/she be a Judahite, Judean or of of another foreign tribes or nation?

It's a learning curve of sorts.

Why do Christians, (who have subjected themselves to Christ), been forgiven....

Continue to claim, (according to the curses OF the law), that they SIN?

Why do Jews (even one in the NT learning about Christ) and (those who have accepted Christ), admonish one another, calling out one another, claiming one has SINNED?

That takes us to... a few things.
ONE -
In the beginning God established for men, what things would be called. Ie genders, man, woman, father, mother, wife, husband, children, oil, gold, plants, animals, trees, etc.

Then we observe, the beginning of teaching, about Spiritual/Heavenly things being taught to mankind; in associative manners.
Meaning what man could see, and words and things that man did understand and was familiar with....being the "TOOL" so to speak, to teach men ABOUT heavenly things, they COULD NOT SEE.

FOR example, WHY is God called the Father?
Did God speak from the Heavens and say, CALL ME THE FATHER? No.
God taught mankind the father, was the Head of his family, his tribe, his kinsmen.
It was Moses, who First connected and called the LORD Father, (after the word father had been used repeatedly being identified as the man, head of his own family), Deut 32:6.

Thereafter, for 4,000 years, the LORD is called and recognized as the Heavenly Father.

So arrive Jesus. Who comes TO Whom? Jews, lost Jews, who have drifted away from ancient teachings.

And, in what manner does God Himself say, what is now 4,000 years Familiar to Jews? (When the Word of God, shall be revealed in the Flesh likeness As a man, TO the Jews) ....

God declares, His own Word, sent forth out of His mouth (Isaiah), to the Earth, SHALL...

Heb 1:5
....I will be to him A FATHER, and he shall be to me A SON.

(God declared it, it is so. Yet we are supposed to further learn the understanding of WHAT GODS WORD WAS, before it was sent to earth in the likeness as a man. Gods Word IS God, and changes not. It spoke to men in the beginning, was revealed in the likeness as a man in the flesh, called the Son, yet is still God, as it was in the beginning, being revealed audibly, in visions, as angels, as men.) Only in the last days was Gods Word call the Fathers Son.)

We have testimony of Paul, thus as he understood, so can we.
Man has internal THOUGHTS.
One is in the MIND,
One is in the HEART.

The mind of man, is where reasoning, logical conclusions, limited knowledge, weighing between right and wrong, guessing, lies and deceit all occur. God does not CHANGE our minds.

The heart of man, is where the mans natural spirit is. Which is his absolute natural Truth, (ie his natural spirit). That is precisely what God searches, for ANY man who subjects himself to Christ.

It is that natural spirit, the Lord "re-births, from the SEED of God. (Unlike the natural spirit that is birthed from the seed of man).
(With also noting, the Lord circumcised that mans heart, thus the man is given a new heart and a new spirit)
Ezekiel 18:31
Ezekiel 36:26

A new pure heart, perfectly made and acceptable for the Spirit of Truth, ie the Spirit of the Lord, ie the Holy Spirit to INDWELL.

And such Holy Spirit comes with HIS TRUTH, teaching a man new spirit, Gods Holy and Pure Truth...in knowledge, in wisdom, in understanding....ACCORDING TO GOD HIMSELF.

And the man? with his same MIND?

The Scriptural teaching IS FOR THE MAN TO subdue his OWN MIND, to the THOUGHTS of his "new heart, new spirit".
Rom 12:2 ...
...by the renewing of YOUR mind....

Paul speaking, many times by using himself as an example....IT"S A STRUGGLE...for a man; having one thought in his MIND, and a completely different thought in his HEART...

Knowing it is righteous to listen to his Heart, over his Mind.....but gee, aren't the urges of the Mind, filled with pleasures, and fun, and excitement, and don't they often gain one worldly possessions, worldly wealth, worldly status??? Sure they can.

But yet IF one continues in LEARNING, they SHOULD find, those Worldly things are TEMPORARY, and the Truth that is ETCHED in the Heart, the Lords WAYS, ARE PERMANENT, and have their own blessings, while a man is still existing on this earth.

POINT BEiNG - Men WANT the SAVING GRACE of God.....but they are reluctant to LEARN, it requires MORE than just RECEIVING. It requires their own participation in MAKING the thoughts of their Heart TRUMP the thoughts of their MIND.

Men walk about claiming; I'm Saved, I'm Born again....but THAT IS TEMPORARY...because I have to HOLD on to it. FALSE. God Saves a man and KEEPS him Saved.

Men walk about claiming; I'm Saved, I'm Born again....but Gods own Word is flawed, that when He forgave....He was to dumb to realize, men would do things that the LAW, calls a sin, thus they call a SIN, and make the Lords Forgiveness MOOT.

And Jesus asks....are you STILL without understanding?

A man who IS SAVED and BORN AGAIN, is a done deal. His Word is faithful and True.

Our job is to get to getting our MINDS thoughts subjected to our HEARTS thoughts,
(Without the curse of sin, while we process this subjection of our minds to our hearts)..

It is WITH one having received FORGIVENESS, and Gods Saving Grace, and Quickened spirit, and the INDWELLING Holy Spirit.....that the man thereafter, IS Equipped, to subdue his own mind to the thoughts of his Heart.......and what he accomplishes....by doing so, is to HAVE a MIND LIKE CHIRST, which is FAVORABLE to God, that a man himself SUBJECTED himself to the Lord, to receive ALL the man needs...

TO become once again IN THE LIKENESS of God......which took the Lord to appear in the LIKENESS of Man to REVEAL to mankind...

HOW TO, become restored, to the Likeness of God.

Because IF you read, Gen 1 & 2.
God created man IN HIS likeness, VERY GOOD.

And if your read, Gen 5, you will find the disobedience of the first man, thwarted, mankind from being in Gods likeness.
Mankind began being born in mans likeness;
And the entire big picture is for man to take advantage of, and once again become in the Lords likeness.....to whit, Jesus taught and Jesus has the Power to MAKE such internal changes in a man, and gives man the Power, to subdue his own mind.

And any man WHO, achieves, to grasp what Jesus taught, and what Jesus gives, is a man WHO, becomes adopted by the Lord, and entitled to be accounted, as a son of God....forever.....wholly and holy made acceptable to God, by the Power of the Lord, for ever.

And FYI, Christ IS the true Light and the Power of God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

I meant ..done WITHOUT spiritual faith that God desires......oops..

APAK

Yes, and like I said - all of the "good" works in the world are worthless unless they are done out of obedience to God's will.

 

[Helen]

@BreadOfLife

I have been reading your posts , as I always do.
So, do you personally DO to stay saved or do you personally DO because you love Him?

Once again it seems salvation and works get muddled. Yes, we do the works because it is a joy to serve Him, not to earn anything.
Salvation is a free gift of grace. Then we become love-slaves to our Lord.
If we continue "doing" just to 'stay saved' etc then we live under a cloud of fear not love.
I personally believe that if we quit 'doing' we are not unsaved, but will be paupers in the Kingdom.

Bless you...Helen

 

[Taken]

As you say...interesting. :)

I doubt we’ll ever have all the answers ...because God hasn’t told us clearly.

So Judas did do all that he was prophesied to do.
Did he have a choice?
Someone had to do the job!
Could he have changed his mind at the end?

Did God have a Plan B ?
I can’t see in scripture that God ever used a plan B.

Actually, plan B, was always in the works, so to speak, according to God, who knows all things.

Everything from the beginning of mankind has HINGED, on a man TRUSTING to BELIEVE, the Word of God.

In the beginning of mankind, God favored particular men, who believed His Word, that such men would Serve God, by telling other men. That worked, "somewhat", and failed, "somewhat".

God called People, who could not Accept Gods Word, by "only" hearing......STIFFNECKED.

And the PLAN...for His own Word to come to mankind in the likeness as a man, was set in motion. Thus to Teach mankind Gods own Word, by His own Word, that men could SEE and relate to.

And People, waited, and waited, (and some still wait)....but yet, 2,000 years ago, in what the Lord called the last days, He sent His own
Word, in the likeness as a man. It is our last revelation, (Heb 1:2) BEFORE the tribulation days, (taught in Rev. when the angel shall go into all the world proclaiming the Word of God)..and men can accepte it or not.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

Once again it seems salvation and works get muddled.

yes, and they will stay muddled, the confusion will remain because it is easier to say "you are not subject to the law" even though one trip at double the speed limit would quickly reveal the truth of that, see, while no one--or at least never the same person who also naively says "you are not subject to the law"--really wants to discuss that what matters is confession leads to salvation, or iow the other side of the equation; now confession becomes unnecessary, see, in one who is not even "subject to the law."

we call these psychopaths or sociopaths

and the confusion all clears up when you observe in someone else that they either constitutionally cannot apologize or otherwise be seen to be wrong in the slightest way, or they can, and any little test you might devise will easily reveal this in someone else