Why water into wine?

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aspen

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I gave you a list was it not enough....

Your whole religion is built on teh blood of our Lords people,

The people listed were killed for being heretics - religious and political enemies. Distorting the Bible, along with translating it into the vernacular (which 99% of the laity could not read) was not the reason the majority of the people listed were killed.
 
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aspen

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mjrhealth

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I enjoyed your dismissal of [teh] Catholic martyrs, listed. Maybe translating my posts into your vernacular might help you read what I am writing

I guess Aspen you dont read my posts, I have no regard for any religion, it is just that "catholics" yell the loudest, protest more than teh protestants, it is all corrupt. None of it is from God.
 

BreadOfLife

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I gave you a list was it not enough....

Your whole religion is built on teh blood of our Lords people,
I can give you a list just as long with greater numbers of Catholics being martyred by Protestants - but that's NOT what Marymog asked you.
You keep dodging the question - WHO was killed for translating the Bible into English??

Since YOU made the claim - the onus is on YOU to provide a name and historical evidence..
If you can't do that - then your point is as empty and impotent as all of your other arguments . . .
 

Stranger

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Why??
Why
would Jesus HAVE to mention the Church in Rome if He is scolding 6 parishes and praising another? The Church in Rome would ONLY be mentioned if they led the others away from the truth.

Anyway - your first line that "According to Scripture the bishop of Rome never became the head of the Church" is false. According to which Scripture verse(s).

Can you show me the verse that says Peter WASN'T the earthly head of the Church. There is FAR more Scriptural evidence to show that Peter WAS the Head.

Chapter and verse, please . . .

Well, if the church at Rome has authority over the Church, then the Church at Rome should be addressed. Then the Church at Rome passes down this information to the local churches it is over. But, sigh, that never happened. Why? Because the church at Rome doesn't have such authority.

It is not which Scripture verses say the bishop of Rome became the head of the Church. It is that there are no verses that say the bishop of Rome is the head of the Church. What a backwards argument you present.

There is nothing to indicate that Peter is the head of the Church. Nothing. Only in Romes imagination.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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and that means what?, you never wrote the text, you dont own them and as you see my post before, it was "your" church that with held them from the public, and killed anyone who read or published them. I wouldnt be so proud of your church.
MY Church "held" the Scriptures from the public??

Care to substantiate that claim with some actual historical facts?? OR, do I need to embarrass you again with what really happened and the fact that up to 85% of the known world was functionally illiterate at the time YOU claim the Church "held the Scriptures" from the people??

If you wanna go there - please present your "facts" . . .
 

mjrhealth

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I can give you a list just as long with greater numbers of Catholics being martyred by Protestants - but that's NOT what Marymog asked you.
You keep dodging the question - WHO was killed for translating the Bible into English??

Since YOU made the claim - the onus is on YOU to provide a name and historical evidence..
If you can't do that - then your point is as empty and impotent as all of your other arguments
Actually i did, Aspen requested too, still that doesnt detract from all teh murders your church committed, she is what she is, all guilty of murder and killing Gods people.
 

aspen

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I guess Aspen you dont read my posts, I have no regard for any religion, it is just that "catholics" yell the loudest, protest more than teh protestants, it is all corrupt. None of it is from God.

Are you an Australian? Or, do you not believe in governments? The fact is, your believe about governments doesn't matter if you qualify as a citizen.
 

mjrhealth

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do I need to embarrass
you are teh funny guy. Went to mass yesterday and killing people today,
I did like one site" it was written in latin tehy could not undertand"

not surprising they didnt want it in english. Still defending her to teh death it seems.
 

BreadOfLife

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Well, if the church at Rome has authority over the Church, then the Church at Rome should be addressed. Then the Church at Rome passes down this information to the local churches it is over. But, sigh, that never happened. Why? Because the church at Rome doesn't have such authority.

It is not which Scripture verses say the bishop of Rome became the head of the Church. It is that there are no verses that say the bishop of Rome is the head of the Church. What a backwards argument you present.

There is nothing to indicate that Peter is the head of the Church. Nothing. Only in Romes imagination.

Stranger
In the immortal words of Gen. Norman Schwartzkop - your entire post is nothing more than "bovine scatology."

I've already explained to you ad nauseam that the 7 Churches in Revelation are in ASIA.
All I can suggest for you at this point is to invest in a world atlas . . .

As for your further manure about Peter, the Bishop of Rome - he was the earthly head of the Church.

- As we ALL know - Peter was singled out by Jesus in Matt. 16:180-19 - that WHATEVER he bound or loosed on earth would also be bound and loosed in Heaven. He alone is given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

- In that same Gospel (Matt. 10:2) the Apostles are listed - and Peter is called FIRST (protos) - even though he was not the first chosen.

- At the Last Supper, Jesus tells Peter that He has prayed for HIM (singular), so that HE (singular) can strengthen his brothers and bring them back to faith.

- After the Resurrection, Jesus takes Peter aside and singles him out yet again. He tells Peter THREE times to feed His sheep and to tend His lambs (John 21:15-19).

We read in the Letter of Clement, who was the bishop of Rome at the end of the 1st century. In his letter, he is called to settle a matter for the Church at Corinth. John the Apostle was STILL alive. Why didn't they go to HIM?? Instead, they went to the earthly Head of the Church, Clement in Rome.

The Early Church UNANIMOUSLY writes about the Primacy of Peter, the Bishop of Rome:

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria
The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
The Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church at Rome, in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he should desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

Optatus
In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would presume to set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan
Christ made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379])

Augustine
Among these apostles Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).
Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).


Sorry due - the Scriptural and historical evidence obliterates your entire impotent argument . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Actually i did, Aspen requested too, still that doesnt detract from all teh murders your church committed, she is what she is, all guilty of murder and killing Gods people.
No - you posted a list that had nothing to do with the question, so I ask you again:
WHO
was killed for translating the Bible into English??

Just give me the name(s) of those who were condemned for just that.
 

aspen

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You are Australian, whether you believe in governments or not - the fact is, the Australian government believes in you.

You are religious, whether you like religion or not. Everything you believe about God, people and creation is religion; the language you use to describe all three, is religion. It is ignorant to deny that you are religious, when you spend the majority of you days and nights posting religion on this message board.

Claiming that you are not religious is a futile attempt to distance yourself from everything you do not like about other religious people and embrace a private, risk free version. 'Having your cake and eating it too'

It is obvious and disingenuous.
 

Stranger

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In the immortal words of Gen. Norman Schwartzkop - your entire post is nothing more than "bovine scatology."

I've already explained to you ad nauseam that the 7 Churches in Revelation are in ASIA.
All I can suggest for you at this point is to invest in a world atlas . . .

As for your further manure about Peter, the Bishop of Rome - he was the earthly head of the Church.

- As we ALL know - Peter was singled out by Jesus in Matt. 16:180-19 - that WHATEVER he bound or loosed on earth would also be bound and loosed in Heaven. He alone is given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

- In that same Gospel (Matt. 10:2) the Apostles are listed - and Peter is called FIRST (protos) - even though he was not the first chosen.

- At the Last Supper, Jesus tells Peter that He has prayed for HIM (singular), so that HE (singular) can strengthen his brothers and bring them back to faith.

- After the Resurrection, Jesus takes Peter aside and singles him out yet again. He tells Peter THREE times to feed His sheep and to tend His lambs (John 21:15-19).

We read in the Letter of Clement, who was the bishop of Rome at the end of the 1st century. In his letter, he is called to settle a matter for the Church at Corinth. John the Apostle was STILL alive. Why didn't they go to HIM?? Instead, they went to the earthly Head of the Church, Clement in Rome.

The Early Church UNANIMOUSLY writes about the Primacy of Peter, the Bishop of Rome:

Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria
The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
The Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church at Rome, in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he should desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

Optatus
In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would presume to set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan
Christ made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379])

Augustine
Among these apostles Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).
Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).


Sorry due - the Scriptural and historical evidence obliterates your entire impotent argument . . .

Sorry....but I disagree. Nothing in Scipture makes Peter the pope of Rome. Only in Romes imagnination. And nothing in Scripture makes the Roman church over the universal Church of Jesus Christ. Paul did greater things than Peter. If anyone should be the 'pope' of the church, it should be Paul. But, he is not because there is no pope over the Church. Jesus Christ and He alone is the Head of the Church.

And the 7 churches in asia are proof of that. They didn't answer to Rome just as no local church answered to Rome.

Yes, yes, but those early church fathers were not Scripture were they. So sad. Thus we must make tradition and the apocrypha equal to Scripture to have our way.

Oh yes, the blessed Peter, who rejected Jesus Christ. He makes a fine pope.

Stranger
 

mjrhealth

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Claiming that you are not religious is a futile attempt to distance yourself from everything you do not like about other religious people and embrace a private, risk free version. 'Having your cake and eating it too'
Risk free. man you wouldnt know. Following Christ alone has caused not just me but all who do huge problems in there lives. There is a reason why it says,

Luk_14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

or

Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

are you willing to loose your life and all you have for His sake... Following Jesus comes with much, pain, heartache and suffering you should try it one day.
 

aspen

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Christian who deny they are religious, remind me of those who
Risk free. man you wouldnt know. Following Christ alone has caused not just me but all who do huge problems in there lives. There is a reason why it says,

Luk_14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

or

Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

are you willing to loose your life and all you have for His sake... Following Jesus comes with much, pain, heartache and suffering you should try it one day.

How do know? You dont believe in religion and you are relying on a religious document to make your point? You remind me of a person who mocks vegaterians, but never eats meat.
 

amadeus

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With all due respect - this strikes me as yet another dodge.

The plain historical facts are that the majority of the so-called "Reformers" held to a deep belief in the Real Presence.
Why is it that their ecclesial descendants don't??

It's a simple question.

On some of the questions after I have answered you insist that I answer you again using your guidelines. I don't have all of the answers for you or perhaps you simply don't like some of my answers. To me there appears to be a lack of communication.

I really have tried to answer all of your questions up to this point, but you don't seem to be as interested as much in my answers as in establishing that you are right and I am wrong. That is not the type of discussion I see any point in continuing. Sorry! For the moment I believe we are done as it is no longer edifying for you or for me.

Give God the glory for what He has accomplished here. I'll take the blame for any failure on my part.
 

mjrhealth

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How do know? You dont believe in religion and you are relying on a religious document to make your point? You remind me of a person who mocks vegaterians, but never eats meat.
I wouldnt have to if christians actually believed. God is not religious, it is purely a man made thing, people love to belong to things, like the cyclists I see riding down the road, same bike, same shoes, same clothes same helmet, its teh boys club. me pair of shorts, sandals in summer T shirt and the abligatory helmet ive had for about 10 years with plastic cable ties in it to keep the mad magpies at bay, If all you have to promote is religion, than your really have nothing at all.