Why water into wine?

[BreadOfLife]

BreadOfLife

Funny that the resurrected Christ didn't mention Peter concerning the 7 churches in Asia. Apparently he wasn't important enough. Funny, that the local church at Rome was not mentioned either. Apparently they had no role.

You see, no matter how much you want the Scriptures to support you...they don't.

Thus the use of 'pictures'. How elementary. But how 'Roman'.

Stranger

And, again, an elementary school child could look at a globe and point to Asia and Europe and see that they are different continents.
YOU, unfortunately haven't been able to grasp that yet.

 

[Stranger]

And, again, an elementary school child could look at a globe and point to Asia and Europe and see that they are different continents.
YOU, unfortunately haven't been able to grasp that yet.

So you admit that the Roman Church is not over all the local churches.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

And just to add to that, Stranger
Galatians 2:6-8
And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I (Paul) had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me (Paul) for mine to the Gentiles)
You would think that if he Peter was to be the pope he would have at least been sent to the Gentiles (the uncircumcised).

Why??
Because YOU say so? You're not God.

By the way - was Cornelius a Jew??

Plus there's enough scripture support to that James was the first leader of the disciples and the Christians in Jerusalem.
Acts 12:17 But motioning to them with his hand to be silent, he described to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, “Tell these things to James and to the brothers.” Then he departed and went to another place.
Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me.
Acts 21:17-18 [ Paul Visits James ] When we had come to Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly. On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
Galatians 2:9 and when James (Notice James is first) and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

At the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) - PETER spoke first.
James merely reiterated what he said and came to his conclusion from that.

ALSO

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This verse must be read in the context of Matthew 16:13-21. Jesus told Peter (Cephas = stone), you are a stone, but on this "Rock" I will build my church. Jesus was alluding to Peter's confession of faith that "Jesus was the Christ, Messiah". His belief and confession is the "Rock". The church is not build on an individual it is build on the confession of faith of it's followers. The righteous shall live by faith. (2 Peter 1:5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (Spoken by someone who knew he wasn't the be all end all but that faith was what builds the church)

- As we ALL know - Peter was singled out by Jesus in Matt. 16:180-19 - that WHATEVER he bound or loosed on earth would also be bound and loosed in Heaven. He alone is given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

- Because of this - Paul refers to Peter as "Cephas" in his letters, which is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha", which means "ROCK".

- In that same Gospel (Matt. 10:2) the Apostles are listed - and Peter is called FIRST (protos) - even though he was not the first chosen.

- At the Last Supper, Jesus tells Peter that He has prayed for HIM (singular), so that HE (singular) can strengthen his brothers and bring them back to faith.

- After the Resurrection, Jesus takes Peter aside and singles him out yet again. He tells Peter THREE times to feed His sheep and to tend His lambs (John 21:15-19).

Try as you might - the weight of Scripture is against you.
Peter was the Chief Apostle and earthly Head of the Church.[/quote]

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you admit that the Roman Church is not over all the local churches.

Stranger

No, where did I say that?
The Bishop of Rome has Primacy over all of the other Churches.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Because Jesus' response to Peter was :" Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven" I had always understood it as the fact that Peter had just received revelation from above, prior to Pentecost.
So from that I understood that His church was to be built on revelation, and firstly the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God.
As much as it is a confession of faith, it most certainly does mention the fact that Peter received that revelation from above, so it wasn't just something Peter had decided to believe just at that moment.

If Peter's confession was the "Rock" - explain to me why Simon's name was changed to "Peter".
Explain to me why Paul refers to him as "Cephas" in his letters, which is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha", which means "ROCK."
Explain to me why ALL of the Early Church Fathers refer to HIM as the "Rock" and not his confession of faith.

 

[aspen]

There's a hole in the bucket

 

[Stranger]

No, where did I say that?
The Bishop of Rome has Primacy over all of the other Churches.

Post #1081.

Stranger

 

[perrero]

Try as you might - the weight of Scripture is against you.
Peter was the Chief Apostle and earthly Head of the Church.

So says you and you are not God.

 

[perrero]

Galatians 2:6-8
And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I (Paul) had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me (Paul) for mine to the Gentiles)

You would think that if he Peter was to be the pope he would have at least been sent to the Gentiles (the uncircumcised).

Why??
Because YOU say so? You're not God.

By the way - was Cornelius a Jew??

So i guess you're going to ignore these verses just as you ignore the 2nd commandment so that you can produce your idols. Very convenient.

Cornelius was a Jew but he would obviously be an EXCEPTION (like the thief on the cross remember that one)(when you use exceptions to prove a point they can come back and bight you) to show Peter that the gospel now extended to the gentiles. Doesn't change the fact that Gal. 2:6-8 is quite clear on both the callings of Peter and Paul, and I certainly don't find anything in His Word where Peter objects to that FACT.

And if one knows how to read correctly Mat. 16, Jesus was comparing Peter, Cephas, Kephas (a stone) to a much larger and important ROCK, Petra, because it is His church, His body and faith in Him is what builds it, not a mere mortal.

But once again you'll disagree and I could care less.

 

[pia]

f Peter's confession was the "Rock

Wasn't that exactly what I wrote that I didn't think it meant?....In my concordance it states that the name means 'little pebbles', whereas it's made very clear that Jesus is The Rock.
Anyway dear BOL,. I thought we had agreed that there was no more point in you and I doing this same old back and forth. I actually thought we had found at least one thing upon which we shared common ground, so let's not start up again.
I do not want to sadden our Father or our Lord ( if that is possible ) and I did tell you that i admired your tenacity in what you believe. what i don't like is the way you 'speak' to all of us....Very UN Christlike...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Post #1081.

Stranger

What's your point?
The Pope has jurisdiction over ALL of the Churches - that is to say, parishes.
It doesn't mean that when Jesus is addressing the 7 Churches in Asia that the Pope needs to be mentioned.

He's not scolding or commending the Pope in these letters. He is scolding and commending the 7 parishes.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wasn't that exactly what I wrote that I didn't think it meant?....In my concordance it states that the name means 'little pebbles', whereas it's made very clear that Jesus is The Rock.
Anyway dear BOL,. I thought we had agreed that there was no more point in you and I doing this same old back and forth. I actually thought we had found at least one thing upon which we shared common ground, so let's not start up again.
I do not want to sadden our Father or our Lord ( if that is possible ) and I did tell you that i admired your tenacity in what you believe. what i don't like is the way you 'speak' to all of us....Very UN Christlike...

I simply asked you a couple of questions.
How is that "UN Christlike"??

YOU made a claim and I asked you about it.
That's called a "conversation".

Anyway - any concordance that makes the claim that "Kepha" means "little pebbles" is wrong . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

So says you and you are not God.

No - so says the Bible and Sacred Tradition.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So i guess you're going to ignore these verses just as you ignore the 2nd commandment so that you can produce your idols. Very convenient.

Cornelius was a Jew but he would obviously be an EXCEPTION (like the thief on the cross remember that one)(when you use exceptions to prove a point they can come back and bight you) to show Peter that the gospel now extended to the gentiles. Doesn't change the fact that Gal. 2:6-8 is quite clear on both the callings of Peter and Paul, and I certainly don't find anything in His Word where Peter objects to that FACT.

And if one knows how to read correctly Mat. 16, Jesus was comparing Peter, Cephas, Kephas (a stone) to a much larger and important ROCK, Petra, because it is His church, His body and faith in Him is what builds it, not a mere mortal.

But once again you'll disagree and I could care less.

Cornelius was a Jew?? That's a hot one.
He was a Roman centurion.

As for your Kepha vs. Kepha arguments - it doesn't hold water.
Jesus spoke Aramaic to Peter, so what He said was, "You are KEPHA and on this KEPHA I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it."

There is no Aramaic word for "small rock" or "large rock".
It's just ROCK.

You don't have a linguistic leg to stand on here.

 

[aspen]

It is sad BoL, you are so busy fighting fellow Christians on this board and there is a person posting all over the board who's doctrine is unapologeticly anticatholic.......yet, you haven't posted any responses to Marakopa that I have seen

 

[Stranger]

What's your point?
The Pope has jurisdiction over ALL of the Churches - that is to say, parishes.
It doesn't mean that when Jesus is addressing the 7 Churches in Asia that the Pope needs to be mentioned.

He's not scolding or commending the Pope in these letters. He is scolding and commending the 7 parishes.

My point is that because the Risen Jesus Christ addressed the churches individually show that the only authority over them is God and Jesus Christ. Not Rome and not the pope. You will note that in (Acts 13:1-4) God was already working through the chain of command and protocol. "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."

And the chain of command and protocol are followed concerning these 7 churches of Asia. (Rev. 1:1) "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

See how perfect the order? God, Jesus Christ, the angel of God, John, His servants.

Thus you see God recognizes the authority of command. And Rome and the pope are not involved. If Rome or the pope has such authority as you say, they would most certainly be mentioned. But they are not.

Stranger

 

[perrero]

Cornelius was a Jew?? That's a hot one.
He was a Roman centurion.

Yes you are correct that was an error on my part, he was a gentile. Nevertheless my explanation still stands. Peter was called to the Jews not the Gentiles.
Cornelius being an EXCEPTION (as you are so familiar with.)
NOTICE, I am not afraid to admit to my mistakes.

 

[pia]

I simply asked you a couple of questions.
How is that "UN Christlike"??

YOU made a claim and I asked you about it.
That's called a "conversation".

Anyway - any concordance that makes the claim that "Kepha" means "little pebbles" is wrong . . .

Sorry, what questions? I am not aware of you asking me anything. Now you also say that the concordance is incorrect, along with all the evidence over the centuries in our history books and a lot of other places in regard to the catholic church.
You come across as if you truly believe yourself infallible, since you claim to KNOW so many things from what you have read.
I said that the way you 'speak' to people on this forum is 'Un Christlike'.
You often have a go at others for not reading what you write properly, shouldn't you then make sure that you do? Otherwise it is surely called hypocrisy.

 

[perrero]

As for your Kepha vs. Kepha arguments - it doesn't hold water.
Jesus spoke Aramaic to Peter, so what He said was, "You are KEPHA and on this KEPHA I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it."

There is no Aramaic word for "small rock" or "large rock
It's just ROCK.

Sorry, but the Holy Spirit saw fit to have this translated more precisely in Greek to Petros G4074 and Petra G4073. No amount of bold and larger font will change that.
Petra being the larger rock Jesus was pointing to one of 2 possible options. 1) He would built His church on Peters confession of faith or 2) He would built the church on Himself (the Rock of our salvation) Dan. 2:34, Mat. 7:24. Either way it is not Peter.
You see one rule of interpretation is that you DO NOT make the Word of God conform to your religion and tradition, it's the other way around. Hope this is helpful.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sorry, what questions? I am not aware of you asking me anything. Now you also say that the concordance is incorrect, along with all the evidence over the centuries in our history books and a lot of other places in regard to the catholic church.
You come across as if you truly believe yourself infallible, since you claim to KNOW so many things from what you have read.
I said that the way you 'speak' to people on this forum is 'Un Christlike'.
You often have a go at others for not reading what you write properly, shouldn't you then make sure that you do? Otherwise it is surely called hypocrisy.

Technically, you are right - they weren't questions - but requests for answers.
Here they are again:
- If Peter's confession was the "Rock" - explain to me why Simon's name was changed to "Peter".
- Explain to me why Paul refers to him as "Cephas" in his letters, which is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha", which means "ROCK."
- Explain to me why ALL of the Early Church Fathers refer to HIM as the "Rock" and not his confession of faith.

As for history - I'm not the one who denies it.
All of YOU deny it. I'm well-aware of the sins of some Catholics in history - but none of YOU want to admit to the sins of Protestants.
I have said many times that there is plenty of blood one everybody's hands when it comes to the past.