Why water into wine?

[aspen]

I wouldnt have to if christians actually believed. God is not religious, it is purely a man made thing, people love to belong to things, like the cyclists I see riding down the road, same bike, same shoes, same clothes same helmet, its teh boys club. me pair of shorts, sandals in summer T shirt and the abligatory helmet ive had for about 10 years with plastic cable ties in it to keep the mad magpies at bay, If all you have to promote is religion, than your really have nothing at all.

It is not the religion; it is the shallow nature of the followers.

 

[mjrhealth]

It is not the religion; it is the shallow nature of the followers.

If you want to be religious, fine, me and a few others just choose to be Christians following Christ there is no other way I know of into heaven.

 

[aspen]

If you want to be religious, fine, me and a few others just choose to be Christians following Christ there is no other way I know of into heaven.

So, you are really against organized religion, not religion.

 

[mjrhealth]

So, you are really against organized religion, not religion.

Is that all you have to discuss, I thought Jesus and your salvation would be more important. As I said you want religion you can have it.

 

[aspen]

Is that all you have to discuss, I thought Jesus and your salvation would be more important. As I said you want religion you can have it.

I am trying to understand you. It is not easy.

 

[mjrhealth]

I am trying to understand you. It is not easy.

I guess BOL has that same issue. It is Jesus and I , Jesus and anyone else who will follow Him. No religion no church no hierarchy no bible lessons, bible studies, no language lessons no doctrines no rules, Just us and Him the way it is supposed to be. What is so hard to understand about that.

 

[aspen]

I guess BOL has that same issue. It is Jesus and I , Jesus and anyone else who will follow Him. No religion no church no hierarchy no bible lessons, bible studies, no language lessons no doctrines no rules, Just us and Him the way it is supposed to be. What is so hard to understand about that.

So everything you know about God and His Son is by direct revelation from God? Because if it is not, you learned it from religion.

 

[mjrhealth]

So everything you know about God and His Son is by direct revelation from God? Because if it is not, you learned it from religion.

All that i know that is true I got from Him not religion, that is why there are things i dont discuss because I have not being taught . It has something to do with not getting big fat heads as men do. A I said again you want religion you can have it and you will reman in that same place you are now now will never grow,

 

[pia]

@aspen
In regard to your reply to 'mjrhealth' about religion and revelation...Not one person can claim to KNOW anything whatsoever WITHOUT revelation. Anything other than that is supposition, belief or alike. To truly KNOW something, it has to come through the experience of it or by direct information through the Holy Spirit or Jesus .
He did so very much, for us to be able to draw near. To have face to face time with Him, and yet most settle for salvation, which is wonderful, but to miss such an incredible gift from on High is just too sad for me.........

 

[mjrhealth]

So everything you know about God and His Son is by direct revelation from God? Because if it is not, you learned it from religion.

This about the time Jesus turned to Peter

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Have fun in your religion.

 

[aspen]

@aspen
In regard to your reply to 'mjrhealth' about religion and revelation...Not one person can claim to KNOW anything whatsoever WITHOUT revelation. Anything other than that is supposition, belief or alike. To truly KNOW something, it has to come through the experience of it or by direct information through the Holy Spirit or Jesus .
He did so very much, for us to be able to draw near. To have face to face time with Him, and yet most settle for salvation, which is wonderful, but to miss such an incredible gift from on High is just too sad for me.........

Indeed. Revelation is part of it, for sure. My issue is the false dichotomy between revelation and religion. It is dualistic to pick one and reject the other. There is nothing wrong with admitting that you learn information about worship and other Christians experience with God and doctrine from religion; it doesn't mean you are any less connected with God or that you aren't growing. As if attending Church is getting in the way of any meaningful relationship with God. It is simply not true.

In fact, there is a real downside to isolating yourself from other Christians because you are afraid to meet together and learn and worship together, and serve each other. Church is more than ritual; it is community. Like all communities, it is not always pleasant and is sometimes overflowing with drama, but we are suppose to love through those challenges not hide away so that we can have a private relationship with Christ without discipline or boundaries and then, just 'imagine' an invisible Church. Jesus didn't teach this. It is the origin of relavitism in Modern Western Culture. We need each other - this is why Jesus uses human beings to spread His gospel.

 

[Marymog]

I gave you a list was it not enough....
Your whole religion is built on teh blood of our Lords people,

You can't back up your statement. This seems to be a common occurrence with you.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sorry....but I disagree. Nothing in Scipture makes Peter the pope of Rome. Only in Romes imagnination. And nothing in Scripture makes the Roman church over the universal Church of Jesus Christ. Paul did greater things than Peter. If anyone should be the 'pope' of the church, it should be Paul. But, he is not because there is no pope over the Church. Jesus Christ and He alone is the Head of the Church.

And the 7 churches in asia are proof of that. They didn't answer to Rome just as no local church answered to Rome.

Yes, yes, but those early church fathers were not Scripture were they. So sad. Thus we must make tradition and the apocrypha equal to Scripture to have our way.
Oh yes, the blessed Peter, who rejected Jesus Christ. He makes a fine pope.
Stranger

And that's why Jesus prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen other others after they lost faith.
That's why Jesus reinstated Peter when He asked him THREE times to feed His lambs and tend his sheep.

No matter HOW much you cover your ears and close your eyes to the Biblical and historical truth - you can't "unmake" the facts . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

On some of the questions after I have answered you insist that I answer you again using your guidelines. I don't have all of the answers for you or perhaps you simply don't like some of my answers. To me there appears to be a lack of communication.

I really have tried to answer all of your questions up to this point, but you don't seem to be as interested as much in my answers as in establishing that you are right and I am wrong. That is not the type of discussion I see any point in continuing. Sorry! For the moment I believe we are done as it is no longer edifying for you or for me.

Give God the glory for what He has accomplished here. I'll take the blame for any failure on my part.

Fair enough.

 

[Stranger]

BreadOfLife

Funny that the resurrected Christ didn't mention Peter concerning the 7 churches in Asia. Apparently he wasn't important enough. Funny, that the local church at Rome was not mentioned either. Apparently they had no role.

You see, no matter how much you want the Scriptures to support you...they don't.

Thus the use of 'pictures'. How elementary. But how 'Roman'.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

Fair enough.

Indeed! What is it some say? "All's well that end well". It is well at least in consideration of the fact that we are not throwing daggers at the other's departing back...

 

[pia]

@aspen Thank you for your reply. I must say it took me aback a little, as you seem to have some rather odd ideas about me..... Do you see me as some sort of 'monk like' creature, who sits in a 'cave' all the time utterly alone, saying 'aummmm' or whatever trying to contact the 'realm' ? ..............That simply isn't the case.
I adore being with those who truly believe and with those who have an actual testimony.....I presume you do know what a testimony is ?
I did write a little about testimony and hearsay, the difference between the two. More than 90% of the people I have met, who call themselves Christians, are the loudest about what Christians should or shouldn't do, all the while, without an actual testimony, so they become rather militant in all they THINK they know, and thereby become very demanding of others, to do likewise............So off they go, saying that they represent Jesus Christ, but mostly turn others right off because they can't 'show' people Christ nor His Way of being, what they have is Bibles and bunches of scriptures, and sure, some are extremely learned about what it says, but that simply isn't the same thing.
In the past I have had many a chat with Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses and alike, and they are exactly the same as those Christians, who rely purely on their understanding of their particular book, and have nothing real to offer people.
Without revelation, the Bible is just words, just like the Book of Mormon and avails nothing ! People may choose to believe them and JOIN their religion, but I like to remind people , that we as His, are supposed to be JOINED to Jesus. Jesus mentioned about not having two masters, did He not? He also mentioned something about, what we choose to be joined to....
You say in your post that Jesus didn't teach about, what you refer to as 'my invisible church' , was that right??
Well, I can only tell you, what He told me, because I had been brought up in a totally atheist environment, I had some peculiar ideas also, so it was my 3rd question to Him, that first night with Him, and I asked this :" Do I have to go to church now, that you have come to see me?"..........................He replied:" You are the Church, PEOPLE are the church, but if you are going to compare it to a building, then you are a brick in MY church along with those who believe."
Now I realize this may be difficult for you to believe, as you don't know me, nor can you see into my eyes, to see that I am not lying here. But, I would not DARE to make up lies about our precious Lord and Savior , are you kidding me?????
So believe me or don't, as I keep saying, when the time comes, you will stand before Him alone, you and He.............Just like I will have to.......I have no intention of being told, that I led a single soul astray, so I only say things as truth, when I have either heard Him say it ( I got to recognize His voice fairly quickly ), or if through The Holy Spirit, I wait for confirmation, which can take a while at times, as He showed me, sometimes He has to teach us a few other things, before we can understand the answer He gives us, about something which we have asked.......Otherwise I will say that I either believe or I think or plainly, that I do not know....
I adore the Bible but I adore Him more, and I would rather take His Word for something, than rely on my own understanding of scripture. I hope you may gain a little understanding of where I am coming from, from this reply...
Have a day of peace and joy in our Lord Pia :)

 

[perrero]

BreadOfLife

Funny that the resurrected Christ didn't mention Peter concerning the 7 churches in Asia. Apparently he wasn't important enough. Funny, that the local church at Rome was not mentioned either. Apparently they had no role.

You see, no matter how much you want the Scriptures to support you...they don't.

Thus the use of 'pictures'. How elementary. But how 'Roman'.

Stranger

And just to add to that, Stranger
Galatians 2:6-8
And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I (Paul) had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me (Paul) for mine to the Gentiles)

You would think that if he Peter was to be the pope he would have at least been sent to the Gentiles (the uncircumcised).

Plus there's enough scripture support to that James was the first leader of the disciples and the Christians in Jerusalem.
Acts 12:17 But motioning to them with his hand to be silent, he described to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, “Tell these things to James and to the brothers.” Then he departed and went to another place.
Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me.
Acts 21:17-18 [ Paul Visits James ] When we had come to Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly. On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
Galatians 2:9 and when James (Notice James is first) and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

ALSO

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This verse must be read in the context of Matthew 16:13-21. Jesus told Peter (Cephas = stone), you are a stone, but on this "Rock" I will build my church. Jesus was alluding to Peter's confession of faith that "Jesus was the Christ, Messiah". His belief and confession is the "Rock". The church is not build on an individual it is build on the confession of faith of it's followers. The righteous shall live by faith. (2 Peter 1:5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (Spoken by someone who knew he wasn't the be all end all but that faith was what builds the church)

 

[Stranger]

And just to add to that, Stranger
Galatians 2:6-8
And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me. 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I (Paul) had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me (Paul) for mine to the Gentiles)

You would think that if he Peter was to be the pope he would have at least been sent to the Gentiles (the uncircumcised).

Plus there's enough scripture support to that James was the first leader of the disciples and the Christians in Jerusalem.
Acts 12:17 But motioning to them with his hand to be silent, he described to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, “Tell these things to James and to the brothers.” Then he departed and went to another place.
Acts 15:13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me.
Acts 21:17-18 [ Paul Visits James ] When we had come to Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly. On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
Galatians 2:9 and when James (Notice James is first) and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

ALSO

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This verse must be read in the context of Matthew 16:13-21. Jesus told Peter (Cephas = stone), you are a stone, but on this "Rock" I will build my church. Jesus was alluding to Peter's confession of faith that "Jesus was the Christ, Messiah". His belief and confession is the "Rock". The church is not build on an individual it is build on the confession of faith of it's followers. The righteous shall live by faith. (2 Peter 1:5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (Spoken by someone who knew he wasn't the be all end all but that faith was what builds the church)

I agree.

Stranger

 

[pia]

This verse must be read in the context of Matthew 16:13-21. Jesus told Peter (Cephas = stone), you are a stone, but on this "Rock" I will build my church. Jesus was alluding to Peter's confession of faith that "Jesus was the Christ, Messiah". His belief and confession is the "Rock"

Because Jesus' response to Peter was :" Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven" I had always understood it as the fact that Peter had just received revelation from above, prior to Pentecost.
So from that I understood that His church was to be built on revelation, and firstly the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God.
As much as it is a confession of faith, it most certainly does mention the fact that Peter received that revelation from above, so it wasn't just something Peter had decided to believe just at that moment.