The challenge in Christianity is not to love Jesus, it's to love Judas.

[St. SteVen]

The challenge of Christianity IS to love Jesus.

Why?
Is Jesus unlovable?

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[David Lamb]

I think she meant this site: Authoritative Testimonials Collected by Valtorta Publishing (However, I fully support your statement below)

Ditto

Thanks! Yes, that works. I didn't recognise any of the names of the people providing testimonials. Most of them seem to be Roman Catholics, and I'm not, so perhaps that is the reason I don't recognise them. Thanks again.

 

[shepherdsword]

Why?
Is Jesus unlovable?

[

No...but loving him can carry a price far about what one will pay for loving Judas

 

[shepherdsword]

St. Steven isnt saying don't love Jesus at all. He's highlighting what Jesus Himself said about how it's easy to love those who love us, but it's harder to love those who don't love us, and that there's more merit in doing the latter. Judas, and people like him, are an example of those who are harder to love, and we are to love them by following the example of Jesus and how He loved Judas (refer back to post #147).

I understand. However, I don't believe Jesus really spoke that about Jesus to Maria Valtorta. In any case, my point is that one can pay a higher price for loving Jesus than for loving Judas or even one's own enemies.

 

[amigo de christo]

Good post, thanks.
Although you and I disagree on judgment.
Something to consider.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. Do we fulfill that command by incinerating them?
Or would God not accept that as a loving response from us?

/

we fullfill that love BY WARNING MEN TO REPENT and BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
not by LYING to them and giving out a false inclusive universal lie that Will damn them all .
We fullfill that love BY USING ALL WORDS OF JESUS and of the apostels of the truth of doctrine for CORRECTION
and etc .
NOT BY OMITTING some of HIS WORDS that get in the way of a unviersalists LIE .
IF any man preaches false hope and gives out idea that all will be fine in the end
no matter if they Believed not on JESUS ,
that man is a murderer who has given the people a false hope that will damn them all .
TRY LOVING FOLKS . REMIND ALL that has breath of the absolute dire need to BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
or perish they surely will .

 

[shepherdsword]

How come?

Because it has a gnostic flavor and isn't supported by any scripture

What do you mean by "pay a higher price"? Is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit.

No one is persecuted or put to death for loving Judas. You can pay that price for loving Jesus.

 

[shepherdsword]

To love Jesus means to obey Him, and follow His example, even unto death, and one of the examples He led was loving the unlovable, like Judas. To love Jesus means to love our neighbor, which includes our enemies.

Agreed...and that makes it the REAL challenge...not loving Judas.

 

[amigo de christo]

Why?
Is Jesus unlovable?

[

not a false verison of him . IT SEEMS MANY LOVE THAT VERSION and so few
actually love THE WORDS OF HIM in that bible .
MANY sure seem to love another jesus , another gospel , they love a LIE .
And i know of them and who they are on this christain website .
A hint , they never gonna tell folks of the aboslute dire need to repent to beleive on HIM
rather they gonna try and plant doubts of universalism incluisivism .
IF you see any doing that , TELL THEM TO CEASE AND DISSIST asap .
cause they are heaping WRATH UPON WRATH UPON WRATH unto themselves ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

To love Jesus means to obey Him, and follow His example, and one of the examples He led was loving the unlovable, like Judas, not just the lovable, even unto death.

I dont think i could have said it better myself my dear magdala .
SO THEN lets examine HOW JESUS spoke to his enemies , to EVEN HIS OWN .
I sure seen some dire warnings . I sure seen him rebuke peter very sharply too .
WHY do i see a love today that while it might talk about doing good to the poor
IT SURE dont seem to correct brethern in error and worse it even pumps out unbelief as love
as it gathers all religoins under the cliam we all serve the same GOD .
I BET A TRILLION DOLLARS GOD WOULD NEVER have done that , OR HIS CHRIST , OR THE APOSTELS .
I SURE Seen them CORRECT all error and warn against ALL FALSE leaders too .
BUT I GUESS this generation KNOWS BETTER THAN GOD THAN CHRIST THAN THE APOSTELS .
what a lie has been loved by this judge not correct not generation indeed . we got problems big time .
CHRISTENDOM HAS NOT ONLY BEEN INFILTRATED by decievers , ITS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY THEM .
MAY I SUGGEST BIBLE TIME once again for all to learn and to grow . cause these fleecers
sure aint gonna feed this people , UNLESS ITS DUNG AND DELUSOIN . cause that is all they feed this people . A LIE
that so many now seem to love . we do know where those who made and loved a lie END up .............LAKE OF FIRE .

 

[amigo de christo]

For there is ONE GOD , ONE LORD , ONE CHRIST and one book we had better also be reading and learning .
HIS WORDS ARE ALL OVER IT AND WITHIN IT .
never forget that satan can qouate the scrips
THUS IT SURE aint hard for him and his men to QUATE GOD is LOVE and yet LEAD THIS PEOPLE astray
through a version of the love of the world . May i , might i , SUGGEST WE OPEN THE BIBLE and learn for ourselves .
cause these fleecers of men , these wolves in wool , these agents of satan
have overtaken a whole lot of even christendom . hurry now , lets begin afresh and a new .

 

[shepherdsword]

How does post #147 have a "gnostic flavor" and which part "isn't supported by Scripture"?

I wasn't talking about post 147. I was talking about Maria Valdosta's claims about what Jesus supposedly told her about Judas.

To love the lovable and unlovable means to love Jesus. But, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Is that not so?

Since loving Jesus includes loving your enemies as well possible life sacrifices I maintain that loving him is the true challenge. I didn't say difficulty, I said challenge.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yea post #147 has the excerpt from Jesus's dictation to Maria Valtorta about Judas. How does it have a "gnostic flavor" and which part "isn't supported by Scripture"?



But, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Is that not so?

wanna a pure and holy example of what is love
and what GOD calls hate .
Now this might shock you to the core , or maybe not .
But before i type this , just remember that he who hates his brother is a murderer
and ye know NO MURDERER has eternal life in them .
YE shall not HATE your neighbor .
WOULD YOU agree with that .
SURE YOU WOULD . SO NOW allow me to finish this , to do something these wicked leaders have not done
but rather have lied to us .
YE shall not HATE your neighbor in your heart , you shall in ANY WAY rebuke him and NOT ALLOW SIN UPON HIM .
SO MUCH FOR THE LOVEY DO JUDGE NOT CORRECT NOT , THAT JUNK IS HATE . satan is slick . I TOLD ya he can quoate
the scrips , YES he can say DONT HATE
but just as he can also say GOD is love and to love your nieghbor
HE GONNA TWIST THE STUFF . BIBLE TIME friends . my hands are clean for i have not shunned
to correct and to speak truth to this people . THOUGH i must admit
the MORE I DO LOVE the more i be hated . folks dont like correction , but rebuke a wise man and he will LOVE THEE .

 

[shepherdsword]

Yea post #147 has the excerpt from Jesus's dictation to Maria Valtorta about Judas. How does it have a "gnostic flavor" and which part "isn't supported by Scripture"?

Psalm 69:25: "May their camp be a desolation; let no one dwell in their tents."

Psalm 109:8: "May his days be few; may another take his office!"

• Acts 1:16–20 — Peter quotes these psalms to explain why Matthias must be chosen to replace Judas among the Twelve Apostles.

As a result, it is error to claim that Jesus loved Judas more than the other disciples. I am sure he loved him and was grieved by his betrayal. However, it is error to claim he loved Judas the most

But, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Is that not so?

Since loving Jesus includes loving your enemies as well possible life sacrifices I maintain that loving him is the true challenge. I didn't say difficulty, I said challenge.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Somehow Judas could see “I have sinned against innocent blood.”
who revealed to Judas that he sinned against innocent blood? I mean Judas speaks the truth that the one they crucified (the One he betrayed) is innocent.

Yes he saw he betrayed Jesus. but remember when it says Judas repented, it was not the saving kind of repentance (metanoia) but a feeling bad (metamellomai)

 

[LittleTuneAlright]

"Say what?"
"Love Judas? We hate Judas!"
"He betrayed our Lord! Why would we love Judas?"

Perhaps Jesus understood this better than we do.
As indicated in this scripture.

John 13:26-28 NIV
Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give
this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.”
Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.

Did Jesus love Judas?
If Jesus loved Judas, shouldn't we?

"To love a betrayer, a person who seeks your actual harm and
who slanders you, is a part of our faith (Luke 6:22; 1 Peter 4:4). It literally is
the story of Jesus Christ. Also a part of our faith is the separation between Holy and unholy,
as was stated previously, between friend and foes, which will lead to separation
even amongst family (Luke 12:53). Loving a person who seeks to harm us lays hot coals
on the heads of the betrayer (Romans 12:20), but it also is most Christ like
when done so. Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8) and it creates a pathway
for redemption (2 Corinthians 5:16-21) as we see people as more than just
flesh and blood, we see them as souls to be redeemed." Source

/ @TonyChanYT

They are absolutely full of greed, or ignorance. But boy does it damn well hurt, especially as you think, they, of all people, never will seek us harm. I then struggle to fill the gap caused by my shattered illusions that some people are still nice and good.... until Jesus reminds me NO ONE is good except God alone..(Mark 10;18)
Jesus must have had him sussed right out to say what he said to him, without any shock/horror.

We are all a pretty evil bunch aren't we? I only have to look at my own sins to recognise I am no better than them...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes he saw he betrayed Jesus. but remember when it says Judas repented, it was not the saving kind of repentance (metanoia) but a feeling bad (metamellomai)

I’m curious where we get the meaning of the words, and as you said above there are two different kinds of repentance (metanoia) and feeling bad (metamellonmai).

So I have the question who decided when Judas repented that it wasn’t the saving kind of repentance, but instead the feeling bad kind(metamellonmai)? When I looked up how do they know when Judas repented it was not the saving kind of remorse?
Scholarly Analysis:
Translation as a Process:
The Role of Context:
No Single Authority:
… the meaning of words was understood and developed through a combination of linguistic study, textual analysis, and translation practices.

I’m still skeptical. if the majority decided Judas is burning in hell then all the analysis will fit, repent(remorse) in the case of Judas was not the saving kind.

 

[shepherdsword]

The fulfillment of Psalms regarding Matthias as Judas's replacement in apostleship has nothing to do with the ways in which Jesus loved Judas and why, and thus Acts 1:16-20 can't reasonably be used as evidence in support of your claim that the words in post #147 aren't Jesus's.

If Jesus loved Judas as much as you claim he would have been forgiven the same way Peter was.

That's not an answer to what I asked. Again, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Isn't that true?

You answered your own question. Why should I attempt to get through to you with anything other than, loving Jesus includes loving your enemies as well possible life sacrifices I maintain that loving him is the true challenge. I didn't say difficulty, I said challenge.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I’m curious where we get the meaning of the words, and as you said above there are two different kinds of repentance (metanoia) and feeling bad (metamellonmai).

So I have the question who decided when Judas repented that it wasn’t the saving kind of repentance, but instead the feeling bad kind(metamellonmai)? When I looked up how do they know when Judas repented it was not the saving kind of remorse?
Scholarly Analysis:
Translation as a Process:
The Role of Context:
No Single Authority:
… the meaning of words was understood and developed through a combination of linguistic study, textual analysis, and translation practices.

I’m still skeptical. if the majority decided Judas is burning in hell then all the analysis will fit, repent(remorse) in the case of Judas was not the saving kind.

Well the bible is ei9ther the Word of God or it is not. If it is- then you have your answer. If it is not then you have no authoritative basis to decide spiritual things about the bible, for then it is your opinion against the writers who were claimed to receive from god the words written.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If this passage is true- then you know.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Well the bible is ei9ther the Word of God or it is not. If it is- then you have your answer. If it is not then you have no authoritative basis to decide spiritual things about the bible, for then it is your opinion against the writers who were claimed to receive from god the words written.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If this passage is true- then you know.

To doubt the interpretation of men does not mean you doubt the Word of God. You’ll hear that often, how if you don’t agree with -an interpretation then you don’t believe the Word of God. for instance Judas is burning in an eternal hell forever because his repentance wasn’t really remorse. I’m not doubting Judas repented as it is written. Who really is doubting a man like Judas could repent? I’m only asking if the decision on what “repent” meant regarding a man who took the money back to those who paid him to betray Jesus and told them “I have sinned against innocent blood” where they said “what’s that to us?” …is it possible what repent translated regarding Judas can be traced back to the first men who got together and decided they didn’t want Judas to have genuine saving remorse? The same ones who regurgitate “we are just filthy sinners not deserving of Grace”? You don’t ever see the many contradictions? It’s not about doubting the Word of God. It’s doubting what we have done to the Word of God to back our (own) opinions.

 

[St. SteVen]

To doubt the interpretation of men does not mean you doubt the Word of God. ...
It’s not about doubting the Word of God. It’s doubting what we have done to the Word of God to back our (own) opinions.

Well said.

[