The challenge in Christianity is not to love Jesus, it's to love Judas.

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amigo de christo

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For there is ONE GOD , ONE LORD , ONE CHRIST and one book we had better also be reading and learning .
HIS WORDS ARE ALL OVER IT AND WITHIN IT .
never forget that satan can qouate the scrips
THUS IT SURE aint hard for him and his men to QUATE GOD is LOVE and yet LEAD THIS PEOPLE astray
through a version of the love of the world . May i , might i , SUGGEST WE OPEN THE BIBLE and learn for ourselves .
cause these fleecers of men , these wolves in wool , these agents of satan
have overtaken a whole lot of even christendom . hurry now , lets begin afresh and a new .
 
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shepherdsword

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How does post #147 have a "gnostic flavor" and which part "isn't supported by Scripture"?
I wasn't talking about post 147. I was talking about Maria Valdosta's claims about what Jesus supposedly told her about Judas.
To love the lovable and unlovable means to love Jesus. But, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Is that not so?
Since loving Jesus includes loving your enemies as well possible life sacrifices I maintain that loving him is the true challenge. I didn't say difficulty, I said challenge.
 

Magdala

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I wasn't talking about post 147. I was talking about Maria Valdosta's claims about what Jesus supposedly told her about Judas.

Yea post #147 has the excerpt from Jesus's dictation to Maria Valtorta about Judas. How does it have a "gnostic flavor" and which part "isn't supported by Scripture"?

Since loving Jesus includes loving your enemies as well possible life sacrifices I maintain that loving him is the true challenge. I didn't say difficulty, I said challenge.

But, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Is that not so?
 

amigo de christo

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Yea post #147 has the excerpt from Jesus's dictation to Maria Valtorta about Judas. How does it have a "gnostic flavor" and which part "isn't supported by Scripture"?



But, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Is that not so?
wanna a pure and holy example of what is love
and what GOD calls hate .
Now this might shock you to the core , or maybe not .
But before i type this , just remember that he who hates his brother is a murderer
and ye know NO MURDERER has eternal life in them .
YE shall not HATE your neighbor .
WOULD YOU agree with that .
SURE YOU WOULD . SO NOW allow me to finish this , to do something these wicked leaders have not done
but rather have lied to us .
YE shall not HATE your neighbor in your heart , you shall in ANY WAY rebuke him and NOT ALLOW SIN UPON HIM .
SO MUCH FOR THE LOVEY DO JUDGE NOT CORRECT NOT , THAT JUNK IS HATE . satan is slick . I TOLD ya he can quoate
the scrips , YES he can say DONT HATE
but just as he can also say GOD is love and to love your nieghbor
HE GONNA TWIST THE STUFF . BIBLE TIME friends . my hands are clean for i have not shunned
to correct and to speak truth to this people . THOUGH i must admit
the MORE I DO LOVE the more i be hated . folks dont like correction , but rebuke a wise man and he will LOVE THEE .
 
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shepherdsword

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Yea post #147 has the excerpt from Jesus's dictation to Maria Valtorta about Judas. How does it have a "gnostic flavor" and which part "isn't supported by Scripture"?
Psalm 69:25: "May their camp be a desolation; let no one dwell in their tents."

Psalm 109:8: "May his days be few; may another take his office!"

  • Acts 1:16–20 — Peter quotes these psalms to explain why Matthias must be chosen to replace Judas among the Twelve Apostles.

As a result, it is error to claim that Jesus loved Judas more than the other disciples. I am sure he loved him and was grieved by his betrayal. However, it is error to claim he loved Judas the most

But, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Is that not so?
Since loving Jesus includes loving your enemies as well possible life sacrifices I maintain that loving him is the true challenge. I didn't say difficulty, I said challenge.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Somehow Judas could see “I have sinned against innocent blood.”
who revealed to Judas that he sinned against innocent blood? I mean Judas speaks the truth that the one they crucified (the One he betrayed) is innocent.
Yes he saw he betrayed Jesus. but remember when it says Judas repented, it was not the saving kind of repentance (metanoia) but a feeling bad (metamellomai)
 

LittleTuneAlright

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"Say what?"
"Love Judas? We hate Judas!"
"He betrayed our Lord! Why would we love Judas?"

Perhaps Jesus understood this better than we do.
As indicated in this scripture.

John 13:26-28 NIV
Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give
this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.”
Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.

Did Jesus love Judas?
If Jesus loved Judas, shouldn't we?

"To love a betrayer, a person who seeks your actual harm and
who slanders you, is a part of our faith (Luke 6:22; 1 Peter 4:4). It literally is
the story of Jesus Christ. Also a part of our faith is the separation between Holy and unholy,
as was stated previously, between friend and foes, which will lead to separation
even amongst family (Luke 12:53). Loving a person who seeks to harm us lays hot coals
on the heads of the betrayer (Romans 12:20), but it also is most Christ like
when done so. Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8) and it creates a pathway
for redemption (2 Corinthians 5:16-21) as we see people as more than just
flesh and blood, we see them as souls to be redeemed." Source

/ @TonyChanYT
They are absolutely full of greed, or ignorance. But boy does it damn well hurt, especially as you think, they, of all people, never will seek us harm. I then struggle to fill the gap caused by my shattered illusions that some people are still nice and good.... until Jesus reminds me NO ONE is good except God alone..(Mark 10;18)
Jesus must have had him sussed right out to say what he said to him, without any shock/horror.

We are all a pretty evil bunch aren't we? I only have to look at my own sins to recognise I am no better than them...
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Yes he saw he betrayed Jesus. but remember when it says Judas repented, it was not the saving kind of repentance (metanoia) but a feeling bad (metamellomai)
I’m curious where we get the meaning of the words, and as you said above there are two different kinds of repentance (metanoia) and feeling bad (metamellonmai).

So I have the question who decided when Judas repented that it wasn’t the saving kind of repentance, but instead the feeling bad kind(metamellonmai)? When I looked up how do they know when Judas repented it was not the saving kind of remorse?
Scholarly Analysis:
Translation as a Process:
The Role of Context:
No Single Authority:

… the meaning of words was understood and developed through a combination of linguistic study, textual analysis, and translation practices.

I’m still skeptical. if the majority decided Judas is burning in hell then all the analysis will fit, repent(remorse) in the case of Judas was not the saving kind.
 
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Magdala

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  • Acts 1:16–20 — Peter quotes these psalms to explain why Matthias must be chosen to replace Judas among the Twelve Apostles.

As a result, it is error to claim that Jesus loved Judas more than the other disciples. I am sure he loved him and was grieved by his betrayal. However, it is error to claim he loved Judas the most

The fulfillment of Psalms regarding Matthias as Judas's replacement in apostleship has nothing to do with the ways in which Jesus loved Judas and why, and thus Acts 1:16-20 can't reasonably be used as evidence in support of your claim that the words in post #147 aren't Jesus's.

Since loving Jesus includes loving your enemies as well possible life sacrifices I maintain that loving him is the true challenge. I didn't say difficulty, I said challenge.

That's not an answer to what I asked. Again, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Isn't that true?
 
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shepherdsword

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The fulfillment of Psalms regarding Matthias as Judas's replacement in apostleship has nothing to do with the ways in which Jesus loved Judas and why, and thus Acts 1:16-20 can't reasonably be used as evidence in support of your claim that the words in post #147 aren't Jesus's.
If Jesus loved Judas as much as you claim he would have been forgiven the same way Peter was.
That's not an answer to what I asked. Again, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Isn't that true?
You answered your own question. Why should I attempt to get through to you with anything other than, loving Jesus includes loving your enemies as well possible life sacrifices I maintain that loving him is the true challenge. I didn't say difficulty, I said challenge.
 

Magdala

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If Jesus loved Judas as much as you claim he would have been forgiven the same way Peter was.

You forget that in order to be forgiven one has to want to be forgiven, of their own free will. But, that has nothing to do with the ways in which Jesus loved Judas and why, and thus neither can Judas's unwillingness to be forgiven be used as evidence in support of your claim that the words in post #147 aren't Jesus's.

Regarding Peter, Judas, and forgiveness though, Jesus spoke about that on March 31st, 1944 to Maria Valtorta, after having shown her the scenes of Judas's betrayal up to his suicide: "Remorse could have also saved him, if he had turned remorse into repentance. But he would not repent and, to the first crime of betrayal, still compatible because of the great mercy that is My loving weakness, he added blasphemy, resistance to the voices of Grace, that still wanted to speak to him through recollections, through terrors, through My Blood and My mantle, through My glances, through the traces of the institution of the Eucharist, through the words of My Mother. He resisted everything. He wanted to resist. As he had wanted to betray. As he wanted to curse. As he wanted to commit suicide.

It is one's will that matters in things. Both in good and in evil. When one falls without the will to follow, I forgive.


Consider Peter. He denied Me. Why? Not even he knew why. Was Peter a coward? No. My Peter was not cowardly. Facing the cohort and the guards of the Temple he had dared to wound Malcus to defend Me, risking his own life thereby. He then ran away, without the will to do so. Then he denied Me, without the will to do it. Later he did remain and proceed on the bloody way of the Cross, on My Way, until he reached death on a cross. And then he bore witness to Me very efficiently, to the point of being killed because of his fearless faith. I defend My Peter. His bewilderment was the last one of his human nature. But his spiritual will was not present at that moment. Dulled by the weight of his humanity, it was asleep. When it awoke, it did not want to remain in sin, but it wanted to be perfect. I forgave him at once.

Judas did not want. You say that he seemed mad and hydrophobic. He was so through satanic fury. His terror in seeing the dog, a rare animal particularly in Jerusalem, was a consequence of the fact that, from time immemorial, that form was attributed to Satan to appear to men. In books of magic it is stated that one of the forms preferred by Satan to appear to men is that of a mysterious dog or cat or billy-goat. Judas, already a prey to terror brought about by his crime, being convinced that he belonged to Satan because of his crime, saw Satan in that stray animal.

He who is guilty, sees shadows of fear in everything. It is his conscience that creates them. Then Satan instigates such shadows, which might still bring a heart to repent, and turns them into horrible ghosts that lead to despair. And despair leads to the last crime: suicide. What is the use of throwing away the price of the betrayal, when such deprivation is only the fruit of wrath and is not corroborated by a righteous will of repentance? Only in such case the act of divesting oneself of the fruits of evil deeds becomes meritorious. But he did not do that. A useless sacrifice.

My Mother, and She was Grace that was speaking and My Treasurer that was granting forgiveness in My name, said to him: "Repent, Judas. He forgives..." Oh! I would have forgiven him! If he had only thrown himself at the feet of My Mother saying: "Mercy! " She, the Merciful Mother, would have picked him up as a wounded man, and on his satanic wounds, through which the Enemy had imbued him with the Crime, She would have shed Her tears that save and She would have brought him to Me, to the foot of the Cross, holding him by the hand, so that Satan might not snatch him and the disciples might not strike him. She would have brought him so that My Blood might fall first of all on him, the greatest of all sinners. And She would have been the admirable Priestess on Her altar, between Purity and Guilt, because She is the Mother of virgins and saints, but She is also the Mother of sinners.

But he did not want.
Meditate on the power of free will, of which you are the absolute arbiters. Through it you can have Heaven or Hell. Meditate on what persisting in sin means. (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V)

__________________________________________​

On August 1st, 1943, Jesus dictated the following to Maria Valtorta: "When Judas no longer believed in Me, in the satisfaction of money, or in the protection of human law, he killed himself. Remorse over his crime? No. If it had been that, he would have killed himself immediately after grasping that I knew. But not then, not after the vile kiss and the loving greeting, not then, not when he saw Me spat upon, bound, dragged away amidst a thousand insults. Only after having understood that the law did not protect him—the poor human law, which often creates or provokes crime, but afterwards washes its hands of its executors or accomplices and, if need be, turns against them and, after having used them, strikes them dumb forever by eliminating them—and only after having understood that power and money were not forthcoming or were too base to produce happiness, only then did he kill himself. He was in the darkness of nothingness. He cast himself into the darkness of hell." (The Notebooks: 1943)

__________________________________________​

On March 30th, 1949, Jesus dictated the following to Maria Valtorta: “[…] for Judas was bold in his crime and, though knowing he was revealing himself in his full horror and branding himself forever with the world’s disdain as long as the world existed, he defied everything and came, in the presence of a people whose reactions he did not know, to point Me out to the assassins. He professed himself to be my disciple by that act and did not deny it; he was and wanted to be known as the ‘betrayer’ and the ‘deicide.’”

“In reality, the thirty coins were the heavy stone which Judas tied around his neck to plunge into the abyss, and the mad hope of triumphing in just any way—after he had been unable to be the ‘great one’ of Christ, King of Israel—was the rope which made him a suicide, deprived of Life and life eternally dead, dead, dead; eternally satan, satan, satan. The second Lucifer for God the Son as the first Lucifer was such for God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, both of them rebels, proud, and greedy and both of them struck down—the Archangel and the Apostle—by Divine Justice.”

“As Judas, to get a justification for his iniquitous action, by every means sought to make Me appear as a sinner, in such a way that he would appear as a just man tormentedly acting against his friend to give honor to God, to persuade the uncertain that I was a false Christ, and to fortify the adversaries, in order to crown his mad dream.”

“The third great, mysterious, and inexplicable defection is that of Judas Iscariot, who spontaneously wanted to belong to Christ, who enjoyed his love for three years and fed on his Word, and who, because he was disappointed in his concupiscent dreams, sold Him for thirty denarii, changing from an apostle—that is, chosen for the highest spiritual dignity—into the betrayer of the Friend, the deicide and suicide.” (The Notebooks: 1945-1950, pp. 483-520;572-609)

You answered your own question.

I'm asking if you agree which requires a yes or no. So, again, is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit. Isn't that true?
 
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Ronald Nolette

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I’m curious where we get the meaning of the words, and as you said above there are two different kinds of repentance (metanoia) and feeling bad (metamellonmai).

So I have the question who decided when Judas repented that it wasn’t the saving kind of repentance, but instead the feeling bad kind(metamellonmai)? When I looked up how do they know when Judas repented it was not the saving kind of remorse?
Scholarly Analysis:
Translation as a Process:
The Role of Context:
No Single Authority:

… the meaning of words was understood and developed through a combination of linguistic study, textual analysis, and translation practices.

I’m still skeptical. if the majority decided Judas is burning in hell then all the analysis will fit, repent(remorse) in the case of Judas was not the saving kind.
Well the bible is ei9ther the Word of God or it is not. If it is- then you have your answer. If it is not then you have no authoritative basis to decide spiritual things about the bible, for then it is your opinion against the writers who were claimed to receive from god the words written.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If this passage is true- then you know.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Well the bible is ei9ther the Word of God or it is not. If it is- then you have your answer. If it is not then you have no authoritative basis to decide spiritual things about the bible, for then it is your opinion against the writers who were claimed to receive from god the words written.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If this passage is true- then you know.
To doubt the interpretation of men does not mean you doubt the Word of God. You’ll hear that often, how if you don’t agree with -an interpretation then you don’t believe the Word of God. for instance Judas is burning in an eternal hell forever because his repentance wasn’t really remorse. I’m not doubting Judas repented as it is written. Who really is doubting a man like Judas could repent? I’m only asking if the decision on what “repent” meant regarding a man who took the money back to those who paid him to betray Jesus and told them “I have sinned against innocent blood” where they said “what’s that to us?” …is it possible what repent translated regarding Judas can be traced back to the first men who got together and decided they didn’t want Judas to have genuine saving remorse? The same ones who regurgitate “we are just filthy sinners not deserving of Grace”? You don’t ever see the many contradictions? It’s not about doubting the Word of God. It’s doubting what we have done to the Word of God to back our (own) opinions.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Well said.

[
I hope you don’t find this offensive. I’m thinking you won’t but will either ignore it or appreciate the suggestion. I’m going through something where I have so many questions. I’m tired and worn out by all the contradictions. I’m not turning atheist but for my own well being, I am challenging what I believe not sure if I have deceived myself. I’ve been listening to:


For me it is an experience to hear some of the hard questions. To at least consider them as I don’t want to live in a bubble or under a rock. Maybe you might find some video helpful at least to consider “how would I answer some hard questions about my beliefs?”

*a side note: One thing I personally have noticed is atheist seem to agree a hundred percent with God as hate. They are very vocal of being in agreement with a version of God that kills, steals and destroys. I don’t agree but I hear a commonality in when Christian’s Keep saying “yeah God is love but don’t make God soft. He is also hate.” Atheist seem to have no problem accepting as they say “if there is a God” they willing accept God is hate filled…what they won’t accept is God is Love.
 
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Magdala

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I’m going through something where I have so many questions. I’m tired and worn out by all the contradictions.

I highly recommend reading the following books, which consist of visions and dictations received by Maria Valtorta from The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and other heavenly persons regarding many subjects:
  • The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God: Vols. I-V (a Work on the Life of Christ). These volumes consist of visions of scenes from Jesus's life on earth (many of which we read about it The Bible, even scenes not mentioned in The Bible, but with more detail), and dictations from Him and the Blessed Virgin about them. It clears up seeming "contradictions" and fills in the gaps in Scripture brought about by natural causes and supernatural will.




  • The End Times (This thematic book comprises dictations from Jesus on the end times taken from The Notebooks: 1943-1950)

I have yet to find The Little Notebooks, Lessons on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans, and The Book of Azariah for free online, but I own them if you have any questions about them. If you read these gifts from our living, loving, and interactive God, not only will you have a plethora of questions answered, but most importantly, you will develop of a more intimate relationship with God. Yes, you will find controversy surrounding these Works (as you will with most things, if not everything), and that most people on this forum reject them without just cause, but the arguments by the critics are easily refutable if one takes the time to become informed. See the links in my signature for proof that Maria Valtorta truly received visions and dictations from God and other heavenly persons. I'm eternally grateful for these Works. Questions asked by some of the greatest minds in human history are answered in them. God really is so good.
 
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St. SteVen

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I hope you don’t find this offensive.
Not at all.
I think atheists can ask some really good questions. (which many Christians do NOT appreciate)


[
 

marks

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No one here has the the slightest opportunity to "love Judas" considering no one here has over known Judas. He is long gone. You can pretend to "love" your fictionalized idea of who you think Judas was, but let's be real. No one can love someone they've never even known. This so-called challenge makes a mockery of love, as if it's just some idea in the mind, or sensation in the soul, about some inner imagination.

Much love!
 
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