Why faith alone? The answer...

[KUWN]

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and directing our lives towards being a doer of God's law. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is the way that He is giving us his gift of salvation. So if our lives are directed at being a doer of God's law, then that is how we know that we are being saved.

There is no such doctrine in the Scriptures of becoming saved over a period of time. Salvation is a one time event by those who accept God's offer of Salvation. The word Salvation can also refer to our Sanctification, which is our ongoing progression in becoming more Christ-like. Salvation, when referring to when someone actually gets saved, is not a process, it is single event which happens when the person accepts Christ as his savior at a specific time and place.

If you don't make this distinction between Salvation and Sanctification, you likely will take on the false teaching of salvation by works. I might add this passage from Rom 11.32 to help answer why we are all condemned. God condemned us all so he could have mercy on all. So, God condemning mankind was a blessing in disguise.

 

[Soyeong]

There is no such doctrine in the Scriptures of becoming saved over a period of time. Salvation is a one time event by those who accept God's offer of Salvation. The word Salvation can also refer to our Sanctification, which is our ongoing progression in becoming more Christ-like. Salvation, when referring to when someone actually gets saved, is not a process, it is single event which happens when the person accepts Christ as his savior at a specific time and place.

If you don't make this distinction between Salvation and Sanctification, you likely will take on the false teaching of salvation by works. I might add this passage from Rom 11.32 to help answer why we are all condemned. God condemned us all so he could have mercy on all. So, God condemning mankind was a blessing in disguise.

The speaks about salvation, sanctification, and justification as having past, present, and future aspects, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:5), we are being saved from continue to be a doer of sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10). In Titus 2:11-13, it doesn't say that we are required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result (salvation by works) or that we are required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes our give of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, so it is an aspect of our salvation that is happening in the present. Moreover, Titus 2:14, does not just say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so it is speaking about past and present aspects of our salvation. I don't see how you can deny that such doctrine is in the Scriptures when I quoted these verses to show you where it is.

 

[DJT_47]

People go on debate and go through loops to prove or disprove faith alone for salvation, baptism being needed, or less commonly if turning from sin "in sincere repentance as possible" is needed.

Let me (hopefully) shut this down with one verse:

Genesis 15:6
"Then he believed in the LORD, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

The Hebrew for "believed" is וְהֶאֱמִ֖ן(wəhe’ĕmin). This word only appears in this verse, and it has only one meaning in any context: Full faith and resolute conviction of something being true.

There's no room in this word for "If they truly believe they'll-" or "Faith and this are needed:-". If we're to have Scripture not contradict, we must accept this, and accept that in reality, these systems and doctrines traditions that deny this(most likely out of ignorance), are founded on false ideas.

And before you claim that "conviction" in that meaning must mean Judeo-Christian ideas of "Conviction that leads to repentance or works", this is merely a word. As religious as Israel was, words on their own don't automatically have religious context in most cases, much less an idea as specific as that. Far less when it has only one meaning. Ancient Isreal had plenty of meanings outaide of a religious context for words, and there's no reason to jump to conclusions and believe this word has such a meaning on its own when that's the case.

I hope this edifies you all. God bless.

Faith alone doctrine is unscriptural, since believing and faith go hand-in-hand, and if you have duch belief and faith you'll then be obedient, and obedience requires you to do yet more: repent and be baptized.

 

[Soyeong]

Faith alone doctrine is unscriptural, since believing and faith go hand-in-hand, and if you have duch belief and faith you'll then be obedient, and obedience requires you to do yet more: repent and be baptized.

A couple can be alone apart from the company of others while not being alone apart from others, so someone can be alone and not alone at the same time in different senses. In Romans 3:27-31, we are declared righteous by faith apart from works, so there is a sense that we are declared righteous by faith alone, but the same faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so there is also a sense that we are not justified by faith alone. While the only way for someone to become righteous is by faith alone apart from works it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works.

 

[DJT_47]

A couple can be alone apart from the company of others while not being alone apart from others, so someone can be alone and not alone at the same time in different senses. In Romans 3:27-31, we are declared righteous by faith apart from works, so there is a sense that we are declared righteous by faith alone, but the same faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so there is also a sense that we are not justified by faith alone. While the only way for someone to become righteous is by faith alone apart from works it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works.

Following and being obedient is a commandment and requirement. Jesus said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mk 16:15-16). And God will take vengeance on those that "obey not the gospel: (1 Thes 1:8). Pretty clear. Faith ain't enough.

 

[bro.tan]

No one says don't work towards spiritual maturity and all those fruit. "Clear meaning" or not, is it logical and self consistent is what I'm asking. If you just say this, we can't know if we're saved and be sure of it, as per 1 John 5:13. It just becomes circular at that point if you claim we "can and we'll just know" or something along those lines.

 

[bro.tan]

No one says don't work towards spiritual maturity and all those fruit. "Clear meaning" or not, is it logical and self consistent is what I'm asking. If you just say this, we can't know if we're saved and be sure of it, as per 1 John 5:13. It just becomes circular at that point if you claim we "can and we'll just know" or something along those lines.

Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.
Paul said in (1 Cor. 15:1-2) (v.1) MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (v.2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Paul is telling you right here that you are saved by the gospel that he preached unto you if you keep it in memory. So what happens if you don’t keep it in memory? Then you have believed in vain you have believed for nothing that’s what vain means.

Notice I have the verses written out for you to read

 

[Soyeong]

Following and being obedient is a commandment and requirement. Jesus said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mk 16:15-16). And God will take vengeance on those that "obey not the gospel: (1 Thes 1:8). Pretty clear. Faith ain't enough.

Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith, so I think that he would agree that obedience is a requirement. Again, the point of saying that we are declared righteous by faith alone is denying that we are required to have have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but is not denying that being a doer of righteous works is intrinsically part of what it means to be righteous. I would say that obedience and repentance are both acting in faith so it is not doing something in addition to faith as if faith alone weren't enough. In Hebrews 11, it doesn't say that they had faith and then added their works to their works to their faith, but rather it describes their faith by describing the works that they did.

 

[DJT_47]

Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith, so I think that he would agree that obedience is a requirement. Again, the point of saying that we are declared righteous by faith alone is denying that we are required to have have first done enough righteous works in order to earn it as the result, but is not denying that being a doer of righteous works is intrinsically part of what it means to be righteous. I would say that obedience and repentance are both acting in faith so it is not doing something in addition to faith as if faith alone weren't enough. In Hebrews 11, it doesn't say that they had faith and then added their works to their works to their faith, but rather it describes their faith by describing the works that they did.

Look, its very simple. You can't agree with one scripture and disagree with another or ignore the other. Scripture doesn't conflict with scripture; it ALL must be taken into consideration. You didn't address the 2 that I cited. What do they mean if not what they clearly say, or fi you ignore them? Apparently, you ignore them.

 

[Soyeong]

Look, its very simple. You can't agree with one scripture and disagree with another or ignore the other. Scripture doesn't conflict with scripture; it ALL must be taken into consideration. You didn't address the 2 that I cited. What do they mean if not what they clearly say, or fi you ignore them? Apparently, you ignore them.

I said:

"I would say that obedience and repentance are both acting in faith so it is not doing something in addition to faith as if faith alone weren't enough."

So I directly addressed those verses and did not disagree with or ignore them.

 

[DJT_47]

I said:

"I would say that obedience and repentance are both acting in faith so it is not doing something in addition to faith as if faith alone weren't enough."

So I directly addressed those verses and did not disagree with or ignore them.

Baptism? He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. Being obedient includes baptism, being baptized. "And" is a conjunction which inextricably ties belief and baptism together. Both are required and baptism is therefore commanded to, and required by the believer.

 

[KUWN]

The speaks about salvation, sanctification, and justification as having past, present, and future aspects, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:5), we are being saved from continue to be a doer of sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10). In Titus 2:11-13, it doesn't say that we are required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result (salvation by works) or that we are required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes our give of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, so it is an aspect of our salvation that is happening in the present. Moreover, Titus 2:14, does not just say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so it is speaking about past and present aspects of our salvation. I don't see how you can deny that such doctrine is in the Scriptures when I quoted these verses to show you where it is.

I hate to say this, but I didn't follow your argument above. Where is it that you think I disagree with you?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Blind faith ?

I had faith in Christianity when I was a child, but I did not truly know Christ Jesus !
Going to Church and Bible studdy I knew of Jesus ? and yes I had faith in fact and that was all good ? but I could of lost that faith like most did within every Church that I was involved in in fact !
Why could I of lost my faith like say 90% who I knew with in the Churches ? well Bible says about the parable of the weeds, seed was sown but some sprouted up directly but for where the seed landed was not in good soil ? and if it was the weeds choked it ?
The weeds are the cares of this world !

Now I studyed Bibles for many years intently Nights till I could not see the words any more and had to go to bed, untill one day I was truly Saved ! I was studying the Bible on a day off and walked into my bed room to get something and Bang ! I met Christ Jesus an incounter that blew me away ! I then Knew who he truly was ! It hit me that I was on the floor crying.
I was Saved in that moment on and I could never go back to the Vomet of this world ! because I was His !

I knew it was us who's Stain of Original Sin was what was the problem of why people reject Salvation and his Lordship ! One must serve the Lord Jesus with all your strength and all your mind and it's total dedication to him ! for we are not of this world that is full of deceptions and delusions.

The workings of the Devil and Satanist are cunning as Hell, so as to lead one astray in fact !

I do agree that once one does have a spark of faith, you can never loose that faith regardless, it's still their, but such can be covered over in fact, due to the cares of this world = deceptions and delusions !

So when I see people who I once went to Bible study, say to me, You don't still believe all that BS do you ! I say I sure do believe and much more so ! I will sit with them till the cowes come home and talk about Christ Jesus. I am not Religious ? Religion never Saved anyones Soul ever, only Christ Salvation Saves ones Soul ! period !

Their maybe many jesus's ? but their is only one Christ Jesus in fact ! For he is the Holy Spirt and our Emmanuel ! for he is with us in the Holy Spirit !

Their are many spirits ? but only one Holy Spirit in fact !

 

[Soyeong]

I hate to say this, but I didn't follow your argument above. Where is it that you think I disagree with you?

Sorry for not being clear. You were arguing that salvation is just a one time event, so I argued that it has past, present, and future aspects. Titus 2:11-13 does not describe our salvation as a one time event, but as being trained by grace to do those works, so it is something that is continuing to happen in the present.

 

[Soyeong]

Baptism? He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. Being obedient includes baptism, being baptized. "And" is a conjunction which inextricably ties belief and baptism together. Both are required and baptism is therefore commanded to, and required by the believer.

Baptism of repentance is inherently acting in faith because it is turning away from doing what is right in our own eyes and trusting God to guide us.

 

[KUWN]

Sorry for not being clear. You were arguing that salvation is just a one time event, so I argued that it has past, present, and future aspects. Titus 2:11-13 does not describe our salvation as a one time event, but as being trained by grace to do those works, so it is something that is continuing to happen in the present.

I certainly understand that there are several phases of Salvation. But the first phase is a single event that corresponds to our initial faith in Christ. That initial faith in Christ is the same as being born again. Sanctification is a process and happens throughout our Christian lives. The final phase is our glorification, which Paul tells us is our lives in heaven. I take it that Justification is synonymous with the initial phase of our Salvation, although it can also reference our Sanctification.

This is a somewhat elementary doctrine, but is important to understand. But, I don't understand what you mean by ...

... it describes our give (gift??) of salvation as being trained by grace (what does this phrase mean?) to do those works, so it is an aspect of our salvation that is happening in the present (that's Sanctification, right?).

Another aspect of our salvation that has already occurred is our Glorification. This can only be explained by the doctrine of Positional Truth, or as Paul was fond of saying, our being "in Christ." In other words, we have already been Glorified because we are seated in the heavenlies with Christ, even in the Present.

 

[Jabre]

I guess you are not aware. There is this growing population of false teachers who use religion to make money. They teach whatever makes people feel happy and justified of their sinful lives.

That's not at all where this came from. Plenty of others have this as honest theology and don't beg for money or say blessings will be returned for donation.

 

[Jabre]

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, and if someone's life is directed towards being a doer of it, then they can know they are being saved from not being a doer of it.

I feel like this is starting to become circular. How do we know we're heading fast enough then? It can't just be "clear" because many people struggle genuinely and others go way past with a breeze. The common conclusion is to "fire and brimstone" or guilt trip the weaker person to just break through that via force of will and coming to enough penitence.
But to be honest, who are we to decide that for them if they're trying with everything they can and aren't trusting in themselves, by this definition? I understand some people believe this and would heartily agree with this sentiment still. But it's just a symptom of a bigger issue. Namely, why does God seem to grade on a curve in this regard?

Even if all the benefit of the doubt is given and moving in the right direction is just being entirely honest about doing the best one can with faith God will help them...ok, but what of the countless "testimony" of people who thought they were and "were deceived" just because they found that breakthrough and then felt "wow, I must have not truly cared!"
Who are we, then, to deny that testimony? "God works His will after all".
It's obsession with certainty when for all they know they could still be deceived at best, and self gaslighting at worst.

I hope you see the problem now. It's an *infinite regress*. There will always be some standard that can't be known if you're honest with yourself by this logic.
It's not a matter of quoting Scripture and trying to "show the truth" at this point, it's arguing against *fundamental logic*. I don't mean to sound hostile, I'm just trying to make you understand that the common interpretation, no matter how much "sense" it might make at first glance, has no foundation in the end.

(P.S. I know you may give an argument of "can we murder, other horrible crimes and be saved?" And while I see it's meaning well to ask that, that's kind of a strawman still. Pretry much anyone, Christian or not, will agree that's less "am I sinning too much to be saved/good?" And more "do I believe in moral standards at all anymore, without being a massive and heartless hypocrite?". God bless.)

 

[Jabre]

Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.
Paul said in (1 Cor. 15:1-2) (v.1) MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (v.2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. Paul is telling you right here that you are saved by the gospel that he preached unto you if you keep it in memory. So what happens if you don’t keep it in memory? Then you have believed in vain you have believed for nothing that’s what vain means.

Notice I have the verses written out for you to read

Yeah, you're not longer saved if you lose faith in Christ. Not questioning that. What are you trying to get at here, exactly?

 

[bro.tan]

Yeah, you're not longer saved if you lose faith in Christ. Not questioning that. What are you trying to get at here, exactly?

As long as you following Jesus foot steps and keeping his Commandments, Statues and Judgements, you should have no problem walking down that narrow path in truth and righteousness. But Jesus warn us that this walk is not easy. Jesus says in Matthew 10: 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

The problem in your household starts when you began obeying all of God's laws and statues of conduct, from the ten commandments to the least commandment. We cannot choose to obey one without obeying the others. For instance, if it's still good to pay tithes (as many preach), then it is still good to obey God's dietary law (not eating pork, catfish, etc...Leviticus 11:1-47). Similarly, you cannot purposely trip a blind person (Leviticus 19:14) and claim to love your neighbor as yourself. Neither can you break God's Sabbath days (Leviticus 19:30) and claim to love God with all your heart, soul and mind.

Many, I say many fight to uphold man's traditional holidays (Sunday the 1st day as the Sabbath, Christmas, Easter and Halloween), but few are obeying God's Holy Days (Saturday the 7th day Sabbath, the Passover, Pentecost, etc...Leviticus 23:1-44). All of God's laws are still good and must be obeyed if we want eternal life and come up in the first resurrection. We might not be able to observe everything perfectly, but can fight a good fight. Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway.

If we do this our prize awaits us at the end. "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).