The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[WPM]

LOL. I'm incapable of the Mount Everest of patience needed to bear your avoidance of the rebuttals you receive when you simply say something else without addressing what was said, and then respond with your mantras of your blah-blah-blah accusations of the person you're monologueing on doing what you do - which is what you always do.

It's better to just repeat what you say back to you when you start with your avoidance of rebuttals and all the other blah blah blahs.

LOL. You obviously don't like the sound of your own voice.

Avoidance is all you have. The reader can see it for themselves. I am done with your pettiness.

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. -- John 20:17

That's a bodily ascension as an immortal. What he said before his death was not that.


Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


What Christ said matches what has been known for a long time.

The Spirit was with Him in hades. His body was quickened and raised by the Spirit. There's a big difference between hades and the abode of the Father.

Jesus died. His spirit went to the Father. His spirit then went to hades, and after 2 days he resurrected bodily and was immortal, and at a later time he physically ascended back to his Father.

 

[Zao is life]

That's a bodily ascension as an immortal. What he said before his death was not that.


Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


What Christ said matches what has been known for a long time.






Jesus died. His spirit went to the Father. His spirit then went to hades, and after 2 days he resurrected bodily and was immortal, and at a later time he physically ascended back to his Father.

I still disagree.

Acts 2
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul [psuche] in hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (quoting Psalm 16:19).

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit [penuma]:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits [pneuma] in prison.

The New Testament uses the word psuche (soul) interchangeably in reference to the soul, the mind and the life of the flesh.

I believe Jesus was fully human, therefore He was body, soul and spirit just like us, except that His spirit is the Spirit of God Almighty.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [ruach / pneuma] shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).

His soul went into hades, His Spirit to God, by whom His body was quickened and raised - AND by whom he went and preached unto the spirits [pneuma] in prison (spirits, not souls). But hades is filled with the souls [psuche] of humans who have died:

Psalm 104
4 Who maketh his angels spirits [ruach / pneuma]; his ministers a flaming fire (quoted in Hebrews 1:7).

2 Peter 2
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to tartaroo, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

5020 ταρταρόω tartarovw tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}
from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.

Jude 1
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I do not believe that Jesus had gone to be with the Father before He ascended bodily. The Spirit of God was always with Him, in Him, and remained with Him and in Him when His soul went down to hades, by which He preached to the spirits in prison,

and by the Spirit His body was quickened and raised. Then, 40 days after he died, he ascended into heaven and went back to His Father. 10 days later He sent the promised Spirit upon His church (Pentecost).

Copy @Davidpt

 

[CTK]

I still disagree.

For what it is worth ... here is a cut out from the chapter 9 commentary on Daniel:


24f-Bring in everlasting righteousness Part 1

In Daniel 9:24, three types of sin are identified—transgression, sin, and iniquity—each reflecting the fallen condition of humanity since Adam. From the moment Adam sinned, mankind was removed from the Garden of Eden, separated from the presence of God. This separation was not merely physical but, more importantly, spiritual. Humanity lost the righteousness, holiness, and divine spirit originally breathed into Adam at his creation.

Since that moment, no individual, institution, or system—whether a church, a society, a philosophy, or a personal moral code—has been able to attain or restore true righteousness on its own. The idea of righteousness, however, is often misunderstood. It is sometimes viewed from a purely human or societal perspective, leading to a distorted definition. In worldly terms, righteousness is often described as moral correctness—adhering to ethical principles, treating others fairly, or following the "golden rule." Society measures righteousness through human behavior, focusing on honesty, kindness, and fairness in personal and social relationships. These are admirable qualities, yet they fall short of true righteousness. If righteousness were simply about morality, then humans could claim self-sufficiency in achieving it. However, moral behavior does not equate to spiritual purity before a holy God. The problem is that even the best moral actions remain imperfect, tainted by human flaws, pride, and self-interest.

Isaiah 64:6 makes this clear: "All our righteous acts are like filthy rags." No matter how upright we appear outwardly, we remain spiritually separated from God’s holiness unless He restores us. In contrast to the world’s limited definition, true righteousness is not defined by human standards—it is defined by God Himself. It is not about personal morality alone, but about being in perfect harmony with God’s will, character, and holiness.

God’s definition of righteousness is absolute, unchanging, and divine. Unlike human morality, which is subjective and inconsistent, divine righteousness requires alignment with God's standard—one that humanity, in its fallen state, is incapable of reaching. From the moment of the fall, mankind lost the ability to achieve spiritual righteousness on its own. What was once breathed into Adam—a spirit of perfect holiness and communion with God—was lost. Sin introduced separation, corruption, and rebellion. As Paul writes in Romans 3:10, “There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Since no amount of effort—good works, sacrifices, rituals, or religious observance—can restore this lost righteousness, a divine intervention was required. This is why God’s plan of salvation has always centered on restoring righteousness through the Messiah. Since no human effort could ever bring fallen mankind back into divine alignment, God Himself provided the way through Jesus Christ. Through His life, Jesus demonstrated perfect righteousness. Through His sacrifice, He atoned for sin, offering His righteousness in place of our unrighteousness. Through His resurrection, He restored what Adam lost, making it possible for humanity to once again enter into the presence of God.

When we place our faith in Christ, God does not merely forgive us—He imputes the righteousness of Christ to us. This means that we are no longer judged by our failures but by Christ’s perfect obedience. As Paul declares in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

“For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

This is the heart of the Gospel: Righteousness is not something we achieve—it is something we receive. The only relationship we can have with God is one based on spiritual righteousness—on His terms, not ours. It is not about what we can do to earn it but what He has done to restore it. The Messiah came not to redefine righteousness, but to fulfill it—to restore what was lost and to bridge the gap between a holy God and fallen humanity. Thus, righteousness is not a reward for human effort but a gift of divine grace. It is not about following rules but about being made new. And it is not a standard we climb toward but a gift we accept through Christ alone.

In Genesis 2:7, we are given a clear formula for how God created Adam as a living soul:
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

This verse reveals two essential components in the creation of man:

A – Dust from the ground (the physical body)

B – The breath of life (God’s Spirit)

There are only two components that made Adam: dust from the ground and God breathing His Spirit into that dust. That was it. A+B=C. C represents the living soul. The living soul is not one of a three-part being that stands alone or exists without A or B. If either A or B is removed, there is no more C; It does not fly away somewhere; it does not go up or down for eternity. It simply means he or she is no longer a living soul (C). Further, B is or was not "air" that God breathed into Adam to jump-start his existence. It is the result of this divine interaction. This union sets humanity apart from the rest of creation and reflects our special status as beings made in the image and likeness of God. God had placed (breathed) His righteousness, His holiness, His Spirit within Adam.

Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden following his disobedience illustrates the profound consequences of sin disrupting this divine-human relationship. Sin introduced a separation between humanity and God, tarnishing the purity and righteousness originally bestowed upon Adam. The expulsion symbolizes not only physical removal from the Garden but also a spiritual estrangement from God's presence. Once again, Adam did not have his own righteousness. It was God’s holiness that returned to Him, not the holiness or righteousness of Adam; there was / is no other place outside of God where His holiness was meant to be, or can be found.

And this is exactly what God’s plan of salvation is all about: how will He get His holiness, His righteousness, His Holy Spirit back into us once again so we can be in His presence. When Adam sinned and disobeyed God, the consequences were not immediate physical death but rather a spiritual separation from God. Adam, though still physically alive, was spiritually dead or separated from God's presence. This spiritual death introduced a state of spiritual darkness and alienation from God's righteousness and holiness. This is exactly what happened to the Jews who rejected and crucified their Messiah, Jesus. This abominable act would cause God to make desolate their spiritual relationship for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles).

 

[CTK]

I still disagree.

24f-Bring in everlasting righteousness Part 2

God's plan of salvation, fulfilled through Jesus Christ, aims to reconcile humanity to Himself and restore the broken relationship caused by sin. Through faith in Christ, individuals are reconciled to God and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, who dwells within them and empowers them to live in accordance with God's righteousness and holiness.

Ultimately, the restoration of God's righteousness and holiness within believers enables them to experience true spiritual life and communion with God, both in the present age and for eternity. Everyone born after Adam (outside the Garden) is a living being, not a living soul. Consequently, we do not have His Spirit, His holiness, or His righteousness within us. Therefore, there is nothing that moves on after we die. Our body goes into the ground. The giving of the Torah, with its sacrificial rituals, served as a temporary means of reconciliation between God and His people. These rituals were a foreshadowing of the ultimate sacrifice that Jesus would make on the cross, bringing everlasting forgiveness and restoration to all who believe. Through the Holy Spirit, believers receive the assurance of God's presence and the power to live transformed lives. God would send His Holy Spirit to the Jews on Pentecost, symbolizing the breathing back of His spirit once again into man. This was God’s way of restoring His righteousness and holiness within us—already, but not yet. It must be restored in man before we are able to be with God, but it will only be consummated or perfected at His second coming. His entire plan of salvation aims to restore each and every one of us to the precise state in which He originally created Adam. Just before Jesus died, He turned to His Father and said in Luke 23:46,

46And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit. Having said this, He breathed His last.

This final statement from Jesus not only echoed the prayer of distress and trust in His God expressed by David in Psalm 31:5, but it also revealed that Jesus had to relinquish His Holy Spirit to God because He had taken on the sin of the world. Sin and God’s Holy Spirit—given to Him by God on the day of His anointing at His baptism—could not coexist. However, God would restore His Holy Spirit within Jesus on the day of His resurrection. This symbolizes the return of the Holy Spirit to dwell within humanity at His second coming, enabling us to be in God's presence once again. When God beholds His people at the end, He will not see our sin. Instead, we will be clothed in His righteousness.

As stated in Isaiah 61:10,

10I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom deck himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Righteousness or holiness will not be attained on this side of heaven. Good works and treating our fellow humans with dignity and care can never reach the heights of righteousness. It is an attribute that solely belongs to God, the lawgiver, and is reflected in His laws. If He desires to infuse His righteousness within us, it remains His righteousness and His gift to us. No individual can be justified by their own works apart from God’s ordinance. Only God has this righteousness to impart; it cannot be purchased, earned, worked for, or acquired in any manner. It is beyond the capability of humanity to generate any form of righteousness, and despite our best intentions, actions, and deeds, all our works are akin to filthy rags. In Isaiah 64:6, he writes,

6But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness’s are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind,

Only the righteousness of Christ (not our own) will enter His kingdom.​

 

[Zao is life]

For what it is worth ... here is a cut out from the chapter 9 commentary on Daniel:


24f-Bring in everlasting righteousness Part 1

In Daniel 9:24, three types of sin are identified—transgression, sin, and iniquity—each reflecting the fallen condition of humanity since Adam. From the moment Adam sinned, mankind was removed from the Garden of Eden, separated from the presence of God. This separation was not merely physical but, more importantly, spiritual. Humanity lost the righteousness, holiness, and divine spirit originally breathed into Adam at his creation.

Sorry but you've gone completely off the subject of my discussion with @ewq1938 and my post to him (which you quoted).

You tried to turn the subject completely away from the topic we were talking about, and turned it instead into a discussion of the sin and death of created human beings.

We were talking about the death of Christ, who was not created and did not sin, and yet died.

With regard to your commentator and all commentaries like it:

No baby, child or adult is a zombie. All created human beings are born with a body, a soul and a spirit - but there was, and is an absence of eternal life in all who do not have Christ IN THEM. Christ in you = eternal life in you.

God is life. He alone possesses life in Himself and God's life is eternal life.

In Him (the Word of God) is (eternal) life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] is the light of men. -- John 1:4.

Life [zoe] is that which is the possession of God alone, which by the life of God is eternal life,

which the Spirit of God breathed into Adam, and which eternal life Adam lost because of his sin.

"For as the Father has life [zōḗ] in himself; so has he given to the Son (of God) to have life [zōḗ] in himself." -- John 5:26.

"God has given to us eternal life [zoe], and this (eternal) life [zōḗ] is in His Son; He that has the Son has this (eternal) life [zoe]; and he that has not the Son of God has not this (eternal) life [zōḗ]." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

Your spirit was born with you when you were born into the world, but your life was temporary, and until you were born of the Spirit of God and received ETERNAL life IN CHRIST (who alone has life in Himself) your BODY would have remained dead when you died and your SOUL in hades.

You were not "born dead". You were never a zombie. And if any human being is BORN with a "dead" spirit, he is a zombie.

When Jesus raised a young girl from the dead, we are told that:

"Her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat." (Luke 8:55).

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11).

Solomon wrote,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).

"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit [pneuma] and soul [psyche] and body [soma] be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Created human beings consist of a body, soul & spirit, and we have life when we are born, but we have AN ABSENCE of eternity (eternal) life [zoe] in us.

That's how it would have remained for us were it not for being born of the Spirit of God through God's grace and receiving eternal life through Christ in us - who is ALSO our hope of future glory in a resurrected and spiritual human body.

Sorry but your commentary is no help and was actually annoying because:

(a) It went totally off-topic and said NOTHING MUCH AT ALL about the topic discussed between myself and @ewq1938, nor about what I was saying to him in my post that you quoted; and

(b) The commentary says nothing new or different to the Bible about sin; and

(b) It DOES say something new about a "dead" spirit- in that the Bible does not talk about a "dead" human spirit (the assertion that is does is based on main-stream Christian churches having become saturated with the misinterpretations of fallible humans),

and therefore it simply perpetuates the false notion of a "dead" human spirit.

No baby, child or adult is a zombie. They were all born with a body, a soul and a spirit - but there was, and is an absence of eternal life in all who do not have Christ IN THEM. Christ in you = eternal life in you.

Your commentator is one of those who remind me of Job's friends. No doubt he was born of the Spirit of God, saved by Christ, well educated in the scriptures and in theology, but then gave a lot of long-winded commentaries which appear to be from someone who has discernment and is insightful, yet mixes truth with falsehoods that are based on the misinterpretations of Christians with fallible human minds.

Although I don't necessarily agree with everything they say either, commentators like Charles Spurgeon and Matthew Henry are among the people whose insights I value.

Besides this, it was off-topic. We were talking about the death of Christ, not the death of created human beings who are sinners.

 

[CTK]

Sorry but you've gone completely off the subject of my discussion with @ewq1938 and my post to him (which you quoted).

You tried to turn the subject completely away from the topic we were talking about, and turned it instead into a discussion of the sin and death of created human beings.

We were talking about the death of Christ, who was not created and did not sin, and yet died.

With regard to your commentator and all commentaries like it:

No baby, child or adult is a zombie. All created human beings are born with a body, a soul and a spirit - but there was, and is an absence of eternal life in all who do not have Christ IN THEM. Christ in you = eternal life in you.

God is life. He alone possesses life in Himself and God's life is eternal life.

In Him (the Word of God) is (eternal) life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] is the light of men. -- John 1:4.

Life [zoe] is that which is the possession of God alone, which by the life of God is eternal life,

which the Spirit of God breathed into Adam, and which eternal life Adam lost because of his sin.

"For as the Father has life [zōḗ] in himself; so has he given to the Son (of God) to have life [zōḗ] in himself." -- John 5:26.

"God has given to us eternal life [zoe], and this (eternal) life [zōḗ] is in His Son; He that has the Son has this (eternal) life [zoe]; and he that has not the Son of God has not this (eternal) life [zōḗ]." -- 1 John 5:11-12.

Your spirit was born with you when you were born into the world, but your life was temporary, and until you were born of the Spirit of God and received ETERNAL life IN CHRIST (who alone has life in Himself) your BODY would have remained dead when you died and your SOUL in hades.

You were not "born dead". You were never a zombie. And if any human being is BORN with a "dead" spirit, he is a zombie.

When Jesus raised a young girl from the dead, we are told that:

"Her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat." (Luke 8:55).

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11).

Solomon wrote,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).

"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit [pneuma] and soul [psyche] and body [soma] be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Created human beings consist of a body, soul & spirit, and we have life when we are born, but we have AN ABSENCE of eternity (eternal) life [zoe] in us.

That's how it would have remained for us were it not for being born of the Spirit of God through God's grace and receiving eternal life through Christ in us - who is ALSO our hope of future glory in a resurrected and spiritual human body.

Sorry but your commentary is no help and was actually annoying because:

(a) It went totally off-topic and said NOTHING MUCH AT ALL about the topic discussed between myself and @ewq1938, nor about what I was saying to him in my post that you quoted; and

(b) The commentary says nothing new or different to the Bible about sin; and

(b) It DOES say something new about a "dead" spirit- in that the Bible does not talk about a "dead" human spirit (the assertion that is does is based on main-stream Christian churches having become saturated with the misinterpretations of fallible humans),

and therefore it simply perpetuates the false notion of a "dead" human spirit.

No baby, child or adult is a zombie. They were all born with a body, a soul and a spirit - but there was, and is an absence of eternal life in all who do not have Christ IN THEM. Christ in you = eternal life in you.

Your commentator is one of those who remind me of Job's friends. No doubt he was born of the Spirit of God, saved by Christ, well educated in the scriptures and in theology, but then gave a lot of long-winded commentaries which appear to be from someone who has discernment and is insightful, yet mixes truth with falsehoods that are based on the misinterpretations of Christians with fallible human minds.

Although I don't necessarily agree with everything they say either, commentators like Charles Spurgeon and Matthew Henry are among the people whose insights I value.

Besides this, it was off-topic. We were talking about the death of Christ, not the death of created human beings who are sinners.

I responded because I saw the discussion included the “spirit” moving on after death- whether it was at the death of Jesus or a human. Your response to him also included a 3 part construction of man. And it mentioned that the spirit of Jesus went to the Father and then to hades….

It is fine that you don’t agree with me on the definition of a “ living soul” or a “living being” and there is nothing to move on at death.

Your comments on “zombies” …

Certainly we have a “spirit”, a consciousness, an awareness, an intellect, but it does not equate with the “spirit” the “holiness” the “righteousness” that I was speaking of that was breathed into Adam …

Once again, we can have very different opinions and understanding on Scripture — and any other subject for that matter … but….

Best wishes.

 

[Zao is life]

Your response to him mentioned that the spirit of Jesus went to the Father and then to hades….

I never said that. @ewq1938 said that. I said only what the scriptures say, without changing anything:

Luke 23
46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And after he said this he breathed his last.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Romans 8
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It's telling us that the Spirit quickened and raised Christ's dead body. If His Spirit quickens our dead bodies when we have died, it means that Christ's Spirit does not stop dwelling in us (our souls) when we die. So why would His Spirit have stopped dwelling in Christ when He died? Note: I never implied or said that it did. @ewq1938 said so, and I was disagreeing with what he said.

The Bible states that Christ's soul went to hades, not me.

So the scriptures talk about the body, the soul and the Spirit of Jesus the Man (not my theology, biblical theology).

So this is my argument in disagreeing with @ewq1938:

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. Jesus the Man is a human being. While He was in hades His soul was in hades and His body was dead. He never "returned to the Father" while He was in hades", nor did He return to the Father until 40 days after His crucifixion, when He ascended bodily.

John 20
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

It is fine that you don’t agree with me on the definition of a “ living soul” or a “living being”

These are the Greek words used in the N.T:

(Greek word) zoe: Life | eternal life.
(Greek word) zao: To live | to be alive (not lifeless | not dead).

The God who is alive [zao], i.e the God who lives [zao] has life [zoe] in Himself.

The life [zoe] of God is eternal life. He breathed (Spirit) life [zoe] into Adam and Adam became a living [zao in the Setuagint] soul - a soul with eternal life in him by the Spirit of God in Him.

The living [zao] God who has life [zoe] in Himself created Adam to live [zao] in his created body on the created earth, and Adam became a living soul when God breathed life [zoe] into Him.

But God stopped dwelling in Him by His Spirit when Adam sinned, and Adam began to die.

The first Adam died and brought death to all created humans. The last Adam (Christ), through His sacrifice for our sins, HIs death and resurrection, brought resurrection from the first death to all mankind.

Life [zoe] is of God, and for us created humans who have been saved through Christ, it's in Christ, who alone among human beings has (possesses) life in Himself.

Faulty Christian theology has Christians failing to see and understand the second half of sentences in scripture way too much:

"God hath given to us eternal life, AND this life is in his Son". -- 1 John 5:11

Created human beings do not, have never, and never will POSSESS our eternal life in ourselves. We are not God.

 

[CTK]

I never said that. @ewq1938 said that. I said only what the scriptures say, without changing anything:

Luke 23
46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And after he said this he breathed his last.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Romans 8
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It's telling us that the Spirit quickened and raised Christ's dead body. If His Spirit quickens our dead bodies when we have died, it means that Christ's Spirit does not stop dwelling in us (our souls) when we die. So why would His Spirit have stopped dwelling in Christ when He died? Note: I never implied or said that it did. @ewq1938 said so, and I was disagreeing with what he said.

The Bible states that Christ's soul went to hades, not me.

So the scriptures talk about the body, the soul and the Spirit of Jesus the Man (not my theology, biblical theology).

So this is my argument in disagreeing with @ewq1938:

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. Jesus the Man is a human being. While He was in hades His soul was in hades and His body was dead. He never "returned to the Father" while He was in hades", nor did He return to the Father until 40 days after His crucifixion, when He ascended bodily.

John 20
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.



These are the Greek words used in the N.T:

(Greek word) zoe: Life | eternal life.
(Greek word) zao: To live | to be alive (not lifeless | not dead).

The God who is alive [zao], i.e the God who lives [zao] has life [zoe] in Himself.

The life [zoe] of God is eternal life. He breathed (Spirit) life [zoe] into Adam and Adam became a living [zao in the Setuagint] soul - a soul with eternal life in him by the Spirit of God in Him.

The living [zao] God who has life [zoe] in Himself created Adam to live [zao] in his created body on the created earth, and Adam became a living soul when God breathed life [zoe] into Him.

But God stopped dwelling in Him by His Spirit when Adam sinned, and Adam began to die.

The first Adam died and brought death to all created humans. The last Adam (Christ), through His sacrifice for our sins, HIs death and resurrection, brought resurrection from the first death to all mankind.

Life [zoe] is of God, and for us humans who have been saved through Christ, it's in Christ, who alone among human beings has life in Himself.

Created human beings do not, have never, and never will POSSESS our eternal life in ourselves. We are not God.

I think you need some rest. And, we can each go our own way. Best wishes.

 

[Zao is life]

I think you need some rest. And, we can each go our own way. Best wishes.

Sure.

 

[ewq1938]

I never said that. @ewq1938 said that. I said only what the scriptures say, without changing anything:

Luke 23
46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And after he said this he breathed his last.

And as I said based on what other scriptures also say, this verse further proves Christ did go to his father first before going to hades. Many think he went to hades first, and didn't go to his father until the ascension but that is wrong.

 

[CTK]

And as I said based on what other scriptures also say, this verse further proves Christ did go to his father first before going to hades. Many think he went to hades first, and didn't go to his father until the ascension but that is wrong.

If you do not mind, why do you say that? I don’t see that at all … I don’t think I read anywhere that Jesus went outside the grave until Hecwas resurrected… thanks.

 

[Davidpt]

And as I said based on what other scriptures also say, this verse further proves Christ did go to his father first before going to hades. Many think he went to hades first, and didn't go to his father until the ascension but that is wrong.

Even if you are correct, and maybe you are for all I know, it still doesn't equal Jesus coming into His kingdom that same day He died. And no way can being in the heart of the earth be meaning His kingdom, paradise. Obviously, when the thief said kingdom, Jesus interpreted that for us as paradise. After all, surely His kingdom and paradise during the NHNE are one and the same. I know you disagree that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the NHNE. Yet, it has to be since His kingdom and paradise are one and the same. And that Revelation 2:7 locates paradise, His kingdom, in the NJ in the NHNE.

 

[Zao is life]

And as I said based on what other scriptures also say, this verse further proves Christ did go to his father first before going to hades. Many think he went to hades first, and didn't go to his father until the ascension but that is wrong.

If that were true then all souls who have ever died have gone to the Father before going to hades.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. " (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).

All souls who die in Christ since the death and resurrection of Christ go to Christ without going to hades first (unless you believe in purgatory), but Jesus was fully human and took upon Himself the fallen human state - the sin that led to death - and went to hades on our behalf, and unlike those who die in Him, needed to be resurrected from the dead before returning to the Father.

What I'm suggesting is that your statement diminishes what Christ needed to go through in order to redeem us from it. He was cursed for us.

 

[Davidpt]

If that were true then all souls who have ever died have gone to the Father before going to hades.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. " (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).

There are a cpl of ways that I can think of to look at this. One thing that seems obvious, the fact this part applies to both the saved and lost---Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was. Then so must this part apply to both the saved and lost--and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

One way to look at it might be this. Everything one has done in their life is recorded in the spirit that God gave that returns to Him upon death. Then that is reviewed and then it is decided where to send this departed person until judgment day.

Another way to look at it might be like this.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


This part pertaining to the spirit God gave and returns to Him upon death---- and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life

Picture Him exhaling when someone becomes a living soul. And when someone dies, picture Him inhaling, thus withdwrawing His breath and it returning to Him.

I don't know if I'm right about any of this. It's basically things that have crossed my mind before. I'm not dogmatic about it.

 

[ewq1938]

If that were true then all souls who have ever died have gone to the Father before going to hades.

Of course. Seems fitting as an early judgement/decision for the unsaved only. The saved stay in heaven, the unsaved got to hades.

What I'm suggesting is that your statement diminishes what Christ needed to go through in order to redeem us from it. He was cursed for us.

What I and supporting scriptures have said is simply that Jesus went to his father before he went to hades.

 

[ewq1938]

If you do not mind, why do you say that? I don’t see that at all … I don’t think I read anywhere that Jesus went outside the grave until Hecwas resurrected… thanks.

I posted scripture showing he would go to his father, and OT scripture saying all who die will go to the father. As for hades, Christ went there after seeing his father:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

Even if you are correct, and maybe you are for all I know, it still doesn't equal Jesus coming into His kingdom that same day He died.

Joh 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

I'm not sure how else to understand what he said. He went to heaven to see his father then went to hades to preach the gospel.

 

[CTK]

I posted scripture showing he would go to his father, and OT scripture saying all who die will go to the father. As for hades, Christ went there after seeing his father:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Ok and thank you. So, essentially there are two sets of versus that are being interpreted that Jesus was “active” after His death and before His resurrection”

1 Peter 3:19–20
“...by which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient... in the days of Noah...”

1 Peter 4:6
“For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead...”

Thoughts:

• It contradicts John 20:17 where Jesus says He had not yet ascended to the Father.
• It raises questions: why preach to those already condemned? I don’t believe in second chance theology.
• “By the Spirit” in v. 18 connects to “by which also He went and preached” (v. 19) — meaning the same Spirit that raised Christ also spoke through Noah.
• The “spirits now in prison” were people who lived in Noah’s day, disobedient then, and are now in judgment.
• Jesus, by the Spirit, preached through Noah during the ark-building years.

• In Matt 12:40, it maintains that Jesus was truly dead and remained in the grave for three days.
• This likely refers to people who heard the gospel during their lifetime, and have since died.
• Peter is encouraging believers to remain faithful under persecution, just as Noah did in a corrupt world.

 

[Zao is life]

There are a cpl of ways that I can think of to look at this. One thing that seems obvious, the fact this part applies to both the saved and lost---Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was. Then so must this part apply to both the saved and lost--and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

One way to look at it might be this. Everything one has done in their life is recorded in the spirit that God gave that returns to Him upon death. Then that is reviewed and then it is decided where to send this departed person until judgment day.

Another way to look at it might be like this.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


This part pertaining to the spirit God gave and returns to Him upon death---- and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life

Picture Him exhaling when someone becomes a living soul. And when someone dies, picture Him inhaling, thus withdwrawing His breath and it returning to Him.

I don't know if I'm right about any of this. It's basically things that have crossed my mind before. I'm not dogmatic about it.

I'm not dogmatic about it either, even though I'm good at coming across as being dogmatic about everything.

I go with the second part of what you said, because long, long before God created anything or anybody, life exists in Him.

And I look at the Greek words used, including the one used for "living soul" in the Septuagint.

God IS life [zoe]. Without God, there is no life [zoe], and the life of God is eternal life [zoe], so God breathing a spirit into flesh means that the flesh becomes a living [zao] being.

(Greek word) zoe: Life | eternal life.
(Greek word) zao: To live | to be alive (not lifeless / not dead. (Thayer's Greek lexicon).

The Greek word used for “living” in Genesis 2:7 in the Septuagint is ζῶσαν (zōsan), which is derived from the root verb ζάω (zaō).

God spoke to Noah about all flesh that has the breath of life from God in it.

God is life. Life exists in God and only because of God:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. -- Acts 17:28

There is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we IN HIM; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we BY him. 1 Cor.8:6.

So the spirit which God breathes into flesh causes that flesh to be alive, but that life (spirit) goes back to its source after death - because the flesh is no longer alive.

Which means that no one born into the world is a zombie or born with a "dead" human spirit. Every soul has life [zoe] - the source is God, who is life [zoe], but since the fall of Adam, the life [zoe] of the person is temporary, and when it ends in death, that person is no longer a living [zao] being, no longer alive [zao], and the life-spirit of the person goes back to its source.

- until Christ came. Since then all who are in Him and His Spirit (eternal life) in them, have eternal life IN them. Christ in you = eternal life [zoe] in you.

But we still die, and when we do, we are no longer a living [zao] being, but our bodies will be resurrected from the dead and we will be alive [zao] again because we have the eternal life [zoe] of Christ in us (who alone among human beings possesses eternal life in Himself).

@Davidpt So a human being has life [zoe] when it is born, but without also being born of the Spirit of God, a human being does not have life that is eternal [zoe] in it, and so when the body dies the human being is no longer alive [zao] and the life (spirit) goes back to its source.

So I go with your second scenario.