Barna Poll: Most Americans - Including Church Members - Reject the Trinity

[Matthias]

 

[JohnDB]

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Matthias]

Since no trinitarian member has come forward to do it, I’ll post it for us on their behalf -

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten,
begotten of the Father before all ages.
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made,
of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven,
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became man.
And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered, and was buried.
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead;
whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit.

But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and, before being born He was not, and
that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is from a different hypostasis or substance, or is created, or is subject to alteration or change - these the Catholic Church anathematizes.”

I would like to see this taught to everyone. Who among the trinitarians will join me in advocating for it?

No trinitarian member did. If I weren’t a member but only a reader, I would note that.

 

[Matthias]

Since no trinitarian member has come forward to do it, I’ll post it for us on their behalf -

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten,
begotten of the Father before all ages.
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made,
of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven,
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became man.
And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered, and was buried.
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead;
whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit.

But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and, before being born He was not, and
that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is from a different hypostasis or substance, or is created, or is subject to alteration or change - these the Catholic Church anathematizes.”

https://christthesavioroca.org/files/2020-Resurrection-Classes/The-Nicene-Creed-of-325.pdf

I’ll use the same source I used to quote the original Nicene Creed to quote the revised Nicene Creed, also known as the “Nicene-Constantinopolotan Creed”.

”Following the Second Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in 381, the Creed was further supplemented with the following:

And [we believe] in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
Who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son
together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life
of the world to come.
Amen.”

https://christthesavioroca.org/files/2020-Resurrection-Classes/The-Nicene-Creed-of-325.pdf

 

[Matthias]

Since no trinitarian member has come forward to do it, I’ll post it for us on their behalf -

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten,
begotten of the Father before all ages.
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made,
of one essence with the Father by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven,
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became man.
And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered, and was buried.
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead;
whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit.

But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and, before being born He was not, and
that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is from a different hypostasis or substance, or is created, or is subject to alteration or change - these the Catholic Church anathematizes.”

https://christthesavioroca.org/files/2020-Resurrection-Classes/The-Nicene-Creed-of-325.pdf

This is the state of Nicene orthodoxy in 325. We can’t stop here. The church didn’t. It was soon determined not to have gone far enough. (Which I will document shortly, using Schaff's History of the Christian Church). Some non-trinitarians were able to affirm the original Nicene Creed. (I wouldn’t have been able to, for those who might be wondering.)

I would like to see this taught to everyone. Who among the trinitarians will join me in advocating for it?

Anathematizes.

”The verb anathematize means to completely condemn, something you would do to a mortal enemy or a truly horrible person.”

Anathematize - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

The verb anathematize means to completely condemn, something you would do to a mortal enemy or a truly horrible person.

www.vocabulary.com

The Nicene Creed (original and amended) isn’t harmless and must not be taken lightly.

Educate the people.

 

[Matthias]

Calling once again upon the constraints of history:

Number of people in the Hebrew Bible who affirmed the Nicene Creed - 0

Number of people in the New Testament who affirmed the Nicene Creed - 0

Number of people who affirmed the Nicene Creed prior to 325 A.D. - 0

Number of people in the Hebrew Bible anathematized by the Nicene Creed - all of them.

Number of people in the New Testsment anathematized by the Nicene Creed - all of them.

Number of people in the post-biblical church prior to 325 A.D. anathematized by the Nicene Creed - all of them.

Number of people in the world who don’t affirm the Nicene Creed and are anathematized by it - all of them.

Please consider again the valuable contribution made in this thread by @Eternally Grateful.

 

[Matthias]

I would like for us to look now at another trinitarian creed - the Athanasian Creed. It too should be taught in every church.

”1. Whosoever will be saved, before all it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So we are forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit; not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching the Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the auick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.”

Athanasian Creed

This is extraordinarily serious. Educate not only the people sitting in trinitarian churches but all of mankind.

 

[Matthias]

“Historians of Christianity and its relationship to society often claim that Constantine created Christian Europe, or Christendom, but that now we are in the post-Constantinian era. In theology, we have to say that we now seem to have entered a post-Chalcedonian era. The transformation this development portends is greater than anything that has yet happened within Christianity. It can be compared only to the transition within biblical monotheism itself, from the unitary monotheism of Israel to the trinitarianism of the Council of Chalcedon. The difference is symbolized by the transition from the prayer Shema Yisroel, of Deuteronomy 6:4 (‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord …’), to the confession of of the Athanasian Creed, ‘We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity.’

Was the transition from the personal monotheism of Israel to the tripersonal theism of Nicaea a legitimate development of Old Testament revelation?”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, p. 431)

Dr. Brown (a Protestant scholar) goes on to assure us that it was.

This history should be taught in every church, and this question should be put to every human being.

 

[rockytopva]

I don't care if the whole world rejects it I will continue to believe...

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.- John 14;26

23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. - John 16

 

[Matthias]

I don't care if the whole world rejects it …

Trinitarians do. At least they say they do.

I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian, and I care if anyone accepts or rejects it.

To accept it or reject it, a person must be educated about it.

The decision is up to every individual to make for himself or herself.

… I will continue to believe...

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.- John 14;26

23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. - John 16

Amen.

 

[talons]

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.”

Said no one in the Bible .

 

[Matthias]

Said no one in the Bible .

For me (and hopefully for others) that begs the question: Why didn’t someone say it in the Bible?

 

[Matthias]

 

[Matthias]

 

[Matthias]

“Anathema, as used in the New Testament, comes from the Greek ana’thema, meaning ‘a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.’ Used only six times in the Bible … Generally speaking, most Bible scholars agree that the word anathema is best understood to mean that which is to be accursed, condemned, or destroyed. When the Lord says something is ‘anthema,‘ it is a serious matter.”

What is the definition of anathema? | GotQuestions.org

What is the definition of anathema? What does it mean to anathematize / be anathematized?

www.gotquestions.org

When the church, via the trinitarian creeds, anathematizes someone, anyone, it is a serious matter.

There’s no sugarcoating it: I’m anathematized - cursed, condemned, destroyed - but not by what is written in scripture; by what is written in the post-biblical trinitarian creeds.

How should I - someone who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, Son of the living God - respond?

”Bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you” (Luke 6:28). “Treat others the same way you want others to treat you” (Luke 6:31).

 

[Matthias]

Someone may ask, Does trinitarianism really destroy Jewish monotheism? To answer that question I turn to another key 4th century figure, Gregory of Nyssa.

”The Christian conception of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true, for ‘the truth passes in the mean between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy, and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each. The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating the imagination of plurality.’”

(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. 1, pp. 362-363, Second Edition, Revised)

This too should be taught in every church and in the home.



I recommend the book to all and sundry.

 

[Matthias]

… the Shema is the creed of Judaism and the Messiah’s creed (which I’ve documented elsewhere using the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.)

It is also my creed. I recite it daily, in both Hebrew and English. This is the creed of Jewish monotheism. It is not a trinitarian creed.

The Justinian Code. How many people know what it is, or care anything about it?

“Shema Yisreal, sometimes considered the most important prayer in Judaism (‘Hear O Israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is one’) was banned, as a denial of the Trinity.”

Code of Justinian - OrthodoxWiki

orthodoxwiki.org

This should be taught in every church and in every home.

 

[Matthias]

“The imperial law code from Justinian’s time (A.D. 529) on, made rebaptism one of the two heresies penalized by death, the other being Anti-Trinitarianism.”

Anabaptists: Excerpts from the Mennonite Encyclopedia

Anabaptists: Learn more about our history and heritage from these excerpts from the Mennonite Encyclopedia.

www.anabaptists.org

Trinitarians and non-trinitarians should be taught this history.

Sooner or later someone always gets around to asking if I was rebaptized. Yes, I was. I have roots in the Anabaptist movement.

If we were living under the ancient Roman imperial law code today - which was enacted by the civil government to protect trinitarian orthodoxy - I would be condemned and put to death.

We aren’t living under that law today. The penalty is the anathema written in the trinitarian creeds.

 

[Matthias]

How accurate is Barna’s poll?

What if the result of the poll is found to be wildly inaccurate and the actual number of church members who affirm the Trinity is 84% and only 16% reject the Trinity?

Would it not still be a serious matter, warranting more thorough education about the Trinity?

 

[Matthias]

I once quipped in a lecture - “Forget about shouting “Fire!” The safe and easy way to quickly clear a room is to begin talking about church history.”