Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
When I enter the church building I can feel the tangible presence of God surrounding me.

Does this happen every Sunday?..at church.

Sometimes it is stronger than at other times.
I noticed it more at the previous church.

When I enter into worship (singing, praise, tongues) I can always feel it.
That's the great thing about church attendance.
All the spirits gathered there combine to enthrone the King.
God inhabits the praises of His people.

[

 

[Magdala]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

Moses and Elijah did in fact appear next to Jesus, and they spoke with Him.

 

[Taken]

Although the rules don't seem to be consistently applied across the Bible, general belief in NT times seems to be that when you die, you're dead until God resurrects you. Souls did not have life independent of a body. Or, at least, no existence outside the mind of God. Otherwise, what's the big deal about Resurrection? Especially Jesus's own Resurrection? In fact, you could argue that Resurrection is a bad thing because souls would be better-off in some non-material plane of existence.

So, I vote for vision, because Moses and Elijah would not have an independent existence in that belief framework, at that particular time.

But, as usual, I could be wrong.

"But even Moses showed in the bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” - Luke 20:27-38​

Soul life is Independant of bodily life…as is Spirit life.

Bodily life is Blood, the body mortal and must die.

Soul life is Gods breath. As long as Gods Life (breath) is in the soul the soul remains living, and departs out of a dead body.

Regarding…the OP…MOSES / Elijah presence…
I believe the human men saw a vision…witnesses to seeing Jesus rise up to return from whence He came…but the presence of a living soul Of ELIJAH and MOSES was for Spiritual witnessing of that event.

Two Witnesses each from this World and Gods Heavenly Kingdom.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Aunty Jane]

So, I vote for vision, because Moses and Elijah would not have an independent existence in that belief framework, at that particular time.

But, as usual, I could be wrong.

"But even Moses showed in the bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” - Luke 20:27-38

I believe that your reasoning on the matter is accurate. No one went to heaven before Jesus (John 3:13) so where would disembodies souls go until Christ opened the way to heaven with his own death and resurrection? This is where “the church” got creative, once the pagan concept of an immortal soul was sold to them. They then had to invent places for these “souls” to go, when there was no need. They would simply ‘sleep in death‘ until their resurrection.

Like Lazarus…..John 11:11-14…
”After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

The statement in Luke must agree with what the Jews were originally taught about death…..that it is not a conscious condition. Luke adds that one extra element to his statement…that to God, ‘all the dead are alive’, in the fact that he can awaken every one of them whom he wishes. He can recreate them as easily as he created Adam, restoring their lives and reuniting them with their families.

The original Jews had no notion of going to heaven because this earth was designed to be our permanent home. But satan has so many focused on going to heaven, where they have not been invited….it is a vain hope. Very few have been chosen for a role in heaven…the majority of mankind will live here on a cleansed earth….forever, as God first intended. (Rev 21:2-4; Isa 55:11)

Interestingly, in Jesus’ day, the Pharisees too had adopted the belief common in paganism, that there is an immortal soul that survives death….but we know that Jesus denounced these ones in Matt 15:7-9….

”You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

It’s not hard to see the truth when you step back and examine all the facts.

The dead are dead. They remain dead until the resurrection…and there are two different resurrections….a “first” one to heaven for those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven…and the majority who will be their subjects on earth, who are called out of their graves. (Rev 20:6; John 5:28-29)

 

[Magdala]

No one went to heaven before Jesus (John 3:13)...

Correct. Just souls, which include Moses and Elijah, went to Limbo to await entry into Heaven.

 

[marks]

Correct. Just souls, which include Moses and Elijah, went to Limbo to await entry into Heaven.

@Aunty Jane



Something to note here is that "has ascended" is the active voice of the verb, meaning, no one has gone (on their own steam) into heaven except Jesus.

Nothing here says that no one has been brought into heaven, such as Elijah, or Enoch, or the souls of the dearly departed.

And now that you know this, you will be being dishonest if you use this argument in the future.

Much love!

 

[Magdala]

The dead are dead. They remain dead until the resurrection…and there are two different resurrections….a “first” one to heaven for those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven…and the majority who will be their subjects on earth, who are called out of their graves. (Rev 20:6; John 5:28-29)

Our body pjysically dies but in Scripture we read that God is of the living. Our spiritual part called the "soul" is what can't physically die. When our physical body dies, if our soul is spiritually alive it lives eternally with God, and if it's spiritually dead it lives eternally separated from God. And, when Jesus returns, our soul and body will be reunited.

 

[Magdala]

@Aunty Jane

View attachment 60274

Something to note here is that "has ascended" is the active voice of the verb, meaning, no one has gone (on their own steam) into heaven except Jesus.

Nothing here says that no one has been brought into heaven, such as Elijah, or Enoch, or the souls of the dearly departed.

And now that you know this, you will be being dishonest if you use this argument in the future.

Much love!

Heaven was closed to humans until Jesus reopened it. Prior to that, all just souls went to Limbo to await Jesus and His reopening of Heaven following His death.

 

[marks]

Heaven was closed to humans until Jesus reopened it. Prior to that, all just souls went to Limbo to await Jesus and His reopening of Heaven following His death.

Did you have any comment on what I said about that verse? Also, I can't think of where "limbo" is in the Bible. Maybe it's just another name for something? Can you point me to a Scripture? Thanks!

Much love!

 

[Magdala]

Did you have any comment on what I said about that verse? Also, I can't think of where "limbo" is in the Bible. Maybe it's just another name for something? Can you point me to a Scripture? Thanks!

Much love!

My comment is that John 3:13 is correct. Heaven was closed to humans after the disobedience of Adam and Eve. God's death as a human restored what had been lost between Himself and man, and it was after this that He could reopen Heaven to mankind. Up until He did, just souls had to go somewhere to await the coming of Jesus and His reopening of Heaven. That place is Limbo and Jesus referred to such a place in His parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.

 

[marks]

My comment is that John 3:13 is correct.

Do you understand that this verse does not mean that there was no one who was taken into heaven?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That place is Limbo and Jesus referred to such a place in His parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.

OK, so you are using Limbo to mean Abraham's Bosom, is that right? Why the change in term?

Much love!

 

[Magdala]

Do you understand that this verse does not mean that there was no one who was taken into heaven?

Much love!

It correctly means that Jesus was the first and only to enter Heaven since the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

OK, so you are using Limbo to mean Abraham's Bosom, is that right? Why the change in term?

Much love!

You can use either. They're both referring to the same place, a place where just souls went to await Jesus and His reopening of Heaven.

 

[marks]

It correctly means that Jesus was the first and only to enter Heaven since the disobedience of Adam and Eve.

This verse does not say that. It says Jesus is the only one to ascend to heaven as something He did for Himself. In no wise does it say no one has been taken into heaven.

Whatever you believe of these things, it does you only harm to intentionally disregard the true saying of a verse of the Bible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You can use either. They're both referring to the same place, a place where just souls went to await Jesus and His reopening of Heaven.

I'm curious, why do you say Limbo, a non-Biblical term with an English meaning of uncertainty, rather than using the Biblical terms, which are not equivalent to "limbo"?

Much love!

 

[Magdala]

This verse does not say that. It says Jesus is the only one to ascend to heaven as something He did for Himself. In no wise does it say no one has been taken into heaven.

It says what it says because Heaven was closed to humans after the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Jesus was the first human to enter Heaven after reopening it.

I'm curious, why do you say Limbo, a non-Biblical term with an English meaning of uncertainty, rather than using the Biblical terms, which are not equivalent to "limbo"?

That's not the only definition of the word "Limbo", nor is it the one that I'm using, but rather its definition "the abode of the souls of unbaptized infants, and of the just who died before Christ's coming." I also use the term "Abraham's bosom" because as I said, they can be used interchangeably.

 

[marks]

It says what it says because Heaven was closed ro humans after the diaobedience of Adam and Eve. Jesus was the first human to enter after reopening it.

You are still dodging this.

Never mind.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Something to note here is that "has ascended" is the active voice of the verb, meaning, no one has gone (on their own steam) into heaven except Jesus.

Nothing here says that no one has been brought into heaven, such as Elijah, or Enoch, or the souls of the dearly departed.

And now that you know this, you will be being dishonest if you use this argument in the future.

It is interesting indeed that when quoting Scripture you yourself can ignore what is plainly written.
Are you now being dishonest…or are you clutching at straws to defend what you want to believe?

There are no immortal souls in the Bible, therefore there is no part of human beings that live on after death.
No one went to heaven before Jesus because all were sleeping in their graves…..they had not gone anywhere. Jesus is called ”the firstborn from the dead” for a reason. (Col 1:18)
He was the first to be resurrected to heaven…..which is why John 3:13 means what it says….

How many of the translations that are available to Christendom’s adherents speak of this “fact” that you are referring to?

ESV….
”No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.”

KJV….
”And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

NASB….
”No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”

NCB….
“No one has gone up to heavenexcept the one who descended from heaven,the Son of Man.”

NIV….
”No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”

Why have none of the most popular Bible translations used in the churches, never even highlighted what you you have stated above? Surely such a blanket statement needs no explanation….. and if there was a qualifying explanation needed, then surely it would be provided in a footnote somewhere?
Strongs makes no mention of such a qualifying statement…..can you tell me why?

 

[marks]

It is interesting indeed that when quoting Scripture you yourself can ignore what is plainly written.
Are you now being dishonest…or are you clutching at straws to defend what you want to believe?

I'll tell you what I'm not doing. I'm not conversing with someone rude as you are.

Much love!

 

[Magdala]

You are still dodging this.

Never mind.

Much love!

How so?

"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." (Jn. 3:13)

John wrote that because, as I said, Heaven was closed to humans after the disobedience of Adam and Eve, up until Jesus.