Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
14,563
5,916
113
70
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
St. SteVen said:
When I enter the church building I can feel the tangible presence of God surrounding me.
Does this happen every Sunday?..at church.
Sometimes it is stronger than at other times.
I noticed it more at the previous church.

When I enter into worship (singing, praise, tongues) I can always feel it.
That's the great thing about church attendance.
All the spirits gathered there combine to enthrone the King.
God inhabits the praises of His people.

[
 
  • Love
Reactions: Ritajanice

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,513
14,903
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Although the rules don't seem to be consistently applied across the Bible, general belief in NT times seems to be that when you die, you're dead until God resurrects you. Souls did not have life independent of a body. Or, at least, no existence outside the mind of God. Otherwise, what's the big deal about Resurrection? Especially Jesus's own Resurrection? In fact, you could argue that Resurrection is a bad thing because souls would be better-off in some non-material plane of existence.

So, I vote for vision, because Moses and Elijah would not have an independent existence in that belief framework, at that particular time.

But, as usual, I could be wrong.

"But even Moses showed in the bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” - Luke 20:27-38​
Soul life is Independant of bodily life…as is Spirit life.

Bodily life is Blood, the body mortal and must die.

Soul life is Gods breath. As long as Gods Life (breath) is in the soul the soul remains living, and departs out of a dead body.

Regarding…the OP…MOSES / Elijah presence…
I believe the human men saw a vision…witnesses to seeing Jesus rise up to return from whence He came…but the presence of a living soul Of ELIJAH and MOSES was for Spiritual witnessing of that event.

Two Witnesses each from this World and Gods Heavenly Kingdom.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,308
3,949
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So, I vote for vision, because Moses and Elijah would not have an independent existence in that belief framework, at that particular time.

But, as usual, I could be wrong.

"But even Moses showed in the bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.” - Luke 20:27-38
I believe that your reasoning on the matter is accurate. No one went to heaven before Jesus (John 3:13) so where would disembodies souls go until Christ opened the way to heaven with his own death and resurrection? This is where “the church” got creative, once the pagan concept of an immortal soul was sold to them. They then had to invent places for these “souls” to go, when there was no need. They would simply ‘sleep in death‘ until their resurrection.

Like Lazarus…..John 11:11-14…
”After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

The statement in Luke must agree with what the Jews were originally taught about death…..that it is not a conscious condition. Luke adds that one extra element to his statement…that to God, ‘all the dead are alive’, in the fact that he can awaken every one of them whom he wishes. He can recreate them as easily as he created Adam, restoring their lives and reuniting them with their families.

The original Jews had no notion of going to heaven because this earth was designed to be our permanent home. But satan has so many focused on going to heaven, where they have not been invited….it is a vain hope. Very few have been chosen for a role in heaven…the majority of mankind will live here on a cleansed earth….forever, as God first intended. (Rev 21:2-4; Isa 55:11)

Interestingly, in Jesus’ day, the Pharisees too had adopted the belief common in paganism, that there is an immortal soul that survives death….but we know that Jesus denounced these ones in Matt 15:7-9….

”You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

It’s not hard to see the truth when you step back and examine all the facts.

The dead are dead. They remain dead until the resurrection…and there are two different resurrections….a “first” one to heaven for those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven…and the majority who will be their subjects on earth, who are called out of their graves. (Rev 20:6; John 5:28-29)
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheHC

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Correct. Just souls, which include Moses and Elijah, went to Limbo to await entry into Heaven.
@Aunty Jane

1742851522044.png

Something to note here is that "has ascended" is the active voice of the verb, meaning, no one has gone (on their own steam) into heaven except Jesus.

Nothing here says that no one has been brought into heaven, such as Elijah, or Enoch, or the souls of the dearly departed.

And now that you know this, you will be being dishonest if you use this argument in the future.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Heaven was closed to humans until Jesus reopened it. Prior to that, all just souls went to Limbo to await Jesus and His reopening of Heaven following His death.
Did you have any comment on what I said about that verse? Also, I can't think of where "limbo" is in the Bible. Maybe it's just another name for something? Can you point me to a Scripture? Thanks!

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That place is Limbo and Jesus referred to such a place in His parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.
OK, so you are using Limbo to mean Abraham's Bosom, is that right? Why the change in term?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It correctly means that Jesus was the first and only to enter Heaven since the disobedience of Adam and Eve.
This verse does not say that. It says Jesus is the only one to ascend to heaven as something He did for Himself. In no wise does it say no one has been taken into heaven.

Whatever you believe of these things, it does you only harm to intentionally disregard the true saying of a verse of the Bible.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You can use either. They're both referring to the same place, a place where just souls went to await Jesus and His reopening of Heaven.
I'm curious, why do you say Limbo, a non-Biblical term with an English meaning of uncertainty, rather than using the Biblical terms, which are not equivalent to "limbo"?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It says what it says because Heaven was closed ro humans after the diaobedience of Adam and Eve. Jesus was the first human to enter after reopening it.
You are still dodging this.

Never mind.

Much love!
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,308
3,949
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Something to note here is that "has ascended" is the active voice of the verb, meaning, no one has gone (on their own steam) into heaven except Jesus.

Nothing here says that no one has been brought into heaven, such as Elijah, or Enoch, or the souls of the dearly departed.

And now that you know this, you will be being dishonest if you use this argument in the future.
It is interesting indeed that when quoting Scripture you yourself can ignore what is plainly written.
Are you now being dishonest…or are you clutching at straws to defend what you want to believe?

There are no immortal souls in the Bible, therefore there is no part of human beings that live on after death.
No one went to heaven before Jesus because all were sleeping in their graves…..they had not gone anywhere. Jesus is called ”the firstborn from the dead” for a reason. (Col 1:18)
He was the first to be resurrected to heaven…..which is why John 3:13 means what it says….

How many of the translations that are available to Christendom’s adherents speak of this “fact” that you are referring to?

ESV….
”No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.”

KJV….
”And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

NASB….
”No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”

NCB….
“No one has gone up to heavenexcept the one who descended from heaven,the Son of Man.”

NIV….
”No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”

Why have none of the most popular Bible translations used in the churches, never even highlighted what you you have stated above? Surely such a blanket statement needs no explanation….. and if there was a qualifying explanation needed, then surely it would be provided in a footnote somewhere?
Strongs makes no mention of such a qualifying statement…..can you tell me why?
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheHC

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is interesting indeed that when quoting Scripture you yourself can ignore what is plainly written.
Are you now being dishonest…or are you clutching at straws to defend what you want to believe?
I'll tell you what I'm not doing. I'm not conversing with someone rude as you are.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How so?

"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." (Jn. 3:13)

John wrote that because, as I said, Heaven was closed to humans after the disobedience of Adam and Eve, up until Jesus.
You used this verse as did the other fellow to show that no one but Jesus has gone into heaven. But this verse does not say that, for the reasons I've said.

Much love!
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,308
3,949
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Correct. Just souls, which include Moses and Elijah, went to Limbo to await entry into Heaven.
Do you even know what a “soul” is in the Bible?
Do you know what Jews believed about the soul? Jesus was Jewish after all….
Do you understand that the “soul“ and the “spirit” are two different things and that neither are disembodied conscious entities.…?

Your Catholic indoctrination has led you to accept so many beliefs that are simply not true.
There is no limbo….there is no purgatory….there is no hell…..all are Catholic inventions based on the pagan belief in immortality of the soul….all satanic lies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheHC

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,308
3,949
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I'll tell you what I'm not doing. I'm not conversing with someone rude as you are.
Did you, or did you not, suggest that any disagreement with what you stated would be me being dishonest?
This was your statement…..
”And now that you know this, you will be being dishonest if you use this argument in the future.”

Now, is telling the truth being dishonest? Was your statement backed up by the Bible translations I quoted?
Is bringing something to your attention that disagrees with what you stated…being dishonest?

I think now is a good time to be honest with yourself.
Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul?

Your response was quite telling actually.
Much love!
I don’t think there was much love at all in your statement…..do you?
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheHC

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
7,308
3,949
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Heaven was closed to humans after the disobedience of Adam and Eve until Jesus reopened it after His death. Jesus was the first human to enter Heaven after He reopened it. This truth and Johns following words correspond:

"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended out of heaven..."

Do you believe Heaven wasn't closesd to humans after the disobedience of Adam and Eve?
Do you understand that heaven was never open to humans in the first place? God created humans to live on earth….it was to be our permanent home….Adam’s sin took that away from us….Jesus’ sacrifice gives it back.
No one needed to go to heaven at all when God first put humankind here, to take care of all of his creation.

Angels were created to live in heaven…humans were created to live on earth. (Gen 3:22-24)
It’s a simple concept surely?
 
  • Love
Reactions: TheHC

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
11,423
4,687
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you understand that heaven was never open to humans in the first place? God created humans to live on earth….it was to be our permanent home….Adam’s sin took that away from us….Jesus’ sacrifice gives it back.
No one needed to go to heaven at all when God first put humankind here, to take care of all of his creation.

Angels were created to live in heaven…humans were created to live on earth. (Gen 3:22-24)
It’s a simple concept surely?
Thus says Kingdom Hall!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
37,132
24,264
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don’t think there was much love at all in your statement…..do you?
I truly wish the best for you, but I know you won't receive truth from me. The best I can hope for is to maybe help you see at least a little bit.

Regarding this small point of grammar, nothing you posted addressed the text in a manner to show whether I spoke truly or falsely. And this is a simple thing. You could learn this if you wanted to. I right the way I do to you to challenge you. Learn these things.

Much love!
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
8,864
12,094
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What is that more abstract truth?

Can truth be abstract? Seems rather inconclusive.

[
The more abstract truth? You tell me. You're the one who brought up "spiritual death".

Can truth be abstract? Lots of truths are abstract. Mathematics, physics, theology, your bank balance....