Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological fabrication.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Absolutely, there was a small regrafting that has been going on from then until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. After that time how much more the fullness of the seed of the woman will be.

The fullness of the Gentiles is the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

That is not taught anywhere in scripture. Where are you getting that from? Certainly not from Romans 11 since Paul did not make any such claim there. It's incredible that you agree that a regrafting has been going on already for almost 2,000 years and then you turn around and try to say that something different will happen than what has been happening during all that time, which Paul never says. Paul indicated that the regrafting will happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and never says it will continue happening after that or start happening to a greater extent after that. When the fulllness of the Gentiles has come in, that is when Jesus will return.

After that event there will be 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes. Then will come the harvest of the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. This harvest will occur at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

You are trying to relate unrelated scriptures. I can't take that seriously. There is only one harvest/rapture, which is why both Jesus and Paul only taught one harvest/rapture. John would not teach anything that Jesus and Paul didn't teach.

The fig tree has two harvests. The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. The first harvest was to be Israel, but they went to Baalpeor. So the Gentiles become the first harvest. That is why after this harvest there are 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. And this harvest will occur at the 6th seal, at the last trump that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

If any of this was actually true, then why didn't Jesus or Paul teach it despite both referring to the harvest/gathering/rapture of believers?

 

[Davy]

This I believe explains the truth


Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

This is how verse 26 should be understood

Once again now with descriptions of Zion and Jacob

“The Deliverer (Jesus) will come out of Zion,(national Israel)

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;(Spiritual Israel)

Why else would Israel be described differently?

All Israel in Paul's view is spiritual Israel made up of both Jew and Gentile that's the only way All Israel can be saved.
....

The problem though with many Jews today, is that they think only they... represent God's Israel. They don't recognize the name Israel with the definition that Paul gave in Romans 9 that points only to believers on Jesus Christ.

The reason those deceived Jews think this is because of the 'blindness' which Paul showed God put upon them per Romans 11 until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (at Christ's return).

So in reality, even today many Jews that claim to believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah, are actually keeping to an old Jewish Pharisee tradition with thinking they only represent the true Israel of God, just because of being born a Jew. (And that's even another problem, because per Old Testament history, the Jews were one of the worse groups that allowed foreigners of the nations, including Canaanites, to inter-marry with them and had children of them - see Ezra 9; 1 Chronicles 2:55; Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9:19-22).

 

[Marty fox]

The problem though with many Jews today, is that they think only they... represent God's Israel. They don't recognize the name Israel with the definition that Paul gave in Romans 9 that points only to believers on Jesus Christ.

The reason those deceived Jews think this is because of the 'blindness' which Paul showed God put upon them per Romans 11 until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (at Christ's return).

So in reality, even today many Jews that claim to believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah, are actually keeping to an old Jewish Pharisee tradition with thinking they only represent the true Israel of God, just because of being born a Jew. (And that's even another problem, because per Old Testament history, the Jews were one of the worse groups that allowed foreigners of the nations, including Canaanites, to inter-marry with them and had children of them - see Ezra 9; 1 Chronicles 2:55; Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9:19-22).

Okay but that doesn't negate the truth

 

[Davy]

Okay but that doesn't negate the truth

What truth, that God is going to save the Jews regardless of what they believe? No, that is not the truth.

The truth is, and Apostle Paul explained this in that Romans 11 Chapter, that the Jews MUST ALSO profess Faith on Jesus Christ in order to be saved, otherwise they will be 'cut off'.

It is my hope, that they will convert to Lord Jesus Christ at His appearing, which is when the spiritual blindness God put upon them will be removed. This is the blinded Jews when they see Christ coming in glory, they will literally mourn for Him in shame per the end of Zechariah 12. It is why those "Daughters of Jerusalem" Jesus mentioned for the end will wish for the mountains to "Fall on us", and for the hills to "Cover us", because of their shame when they see Jesus and realize they rejected Him.

But the thing is, 'accountability'. Since God Himself put the "spirit of stupor" upon the majority of unbelieving Jews (per Paul in Rom.11), can they be held accountable for rejecting Lord Jesus? NO! Would you hold a little child accountable for doing something in ignorance they were not first warned about?

 

[Marty fox]

What truth, that God is going to save the Jews regardless of what they believe? No, that is not the truth.

The truth is, and Apostle Paul explained this in that Romans 11 Chapter, that the Jews MUST ALSO profess Faith on Jesus Christ in order to be saved, otherwise they will be 'cut off'.

It is my hope, that they will convert to Lord Jesus Christ at His appearing, which is when the spiritual blindness God put upon them will be removed. This is the blinded Jews when they see Christ coming in glory, they will literally mourn for Him in shame per the end of Zechariah 12. It is why those "Daughters of Jerusalem" Jesus mentioned for the end will wish for the mountains to "Fall on us", and for the hills to "Cover us", because of their shame when they see Jesus and realize they rejected Him.

But the thing is, 'accountability'. Since God Himself put the "spirit of stupor" upon the majority of unbelieving Jews (per Paul in Rom.11), can they be held accountable for rejecting Lord Jesus? NO! Would you hold a little child accountable for doing something in ignorance they were not first warned about?

Of course the Jews have to believe in Jesus to be saved I wasn’t saying otherwise.

God didn’t purposely blind anyone as God wants all to be saved . What that verse is saying is that they rejected Jesus because they didn’t want Him and God knew this so honoured their will and He pulled the Holy Sprit away from them thus He stopped pursuing the.

This explains why so many thousands of other Jews who realized who Jesus was and were willing to change their minds have been converted since the first coming.

 

[Davy]

God didn’t purposely blind anyone as God wants all to be saved .

Oh no, you are in error about that... God Himself put that 'blindness' upon them away from The Gospel...

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJV

Paul was quoting that about God having put the "spirit of deep sleep" upon the majority of Jews from here...

Isa 29:10
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered.
KJV

Why would God do that to them? Like Paul says in Rom.11:11, it was to provoke the Jews to jealousy, and so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
KJV

Then the above verse Paul is pointing to a mystery that in final, God is going to remove that blindness He put upon the majority of Jews.

Apostle Paul then explains further of how when the blindness is removed in final, then those unbelieving Jews will obtain mercy like the believing Gentiles have...

Rom 11:28-32
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

That's actually a very beautiful idea by Apostle Paul. Through the majority of Jews rejecting The Gospel because God blinded the majority of them, by that The Gospel would be offered to the Gentiles with their thus having obtained mercy. And then in final when God removes the blindness He put upon the majority of Jews, they too then will obtain mercy.

 

[Marty fox]

Oh no, you are in error about that... God Himself put that 'blindness' upon them away from The Gospel...

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJV

Paul was quoting that about God having put the "spirit of deep sleep" upon the majority of Jews from here...

Isa 29:10
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered.
KJV

Why would God do that to them? Like Paul says in Rom.11:11, it was to provoke the Jews to jealousy, and so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
KJV

Then the above verse Paul is pointing to a mystery that in final, God is going to remove that blindness He put upon the majority of Jews.

Apostle Paul then explains further of how when the blindness is removed in final, then those unbelieving Jews will obtain mercy like the believing Gentiles have...

Rom 11:28-32
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

That's actually a very beautiful idea by Apostle Paul. Through the majority of Jews rejecting The Gospel because God blinded the majority of them, by that The Gospel would be offered to the Gentiles with their thus having obtained mercy. And then in final when God removes the blindness He put upon the majority of Jews, they too then will obtain mercy.

Paul also wrote this

1 Timothy 2:4-5
God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth, which is, There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God.

 

[JohnDB]

Premillenialism
Postmillenialism
Amillienialism
Allmillenialism

These are the 4 views of the Millenial kingdom that I'm aware of existing commonly in various denominations and privately held beliefs.

Some require dispensationalism, a form of racism, that I have a difficult time with believing. (It's that age old question of how much poison in your glass of water until the water is poisonous and you refuse to drink it)

What I DO see a lot of is how people who have poor hermeneutics skills somehow feel qualified to explain the eschatology out of prophecies that are the MOST COMPLICATED set of Prophecies we have concerning the future.

Even those with mid level skills are scared to death of interpreting Revelations.

But Carry on....

 

[soberxp]

But I worry that those who forcefully interpret prophecies might be false prophets. That’s why I rarely push me or others to understand the prophecies in the book."

---

Biblical Context:​

1. Warning Against False Prophets
   • "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." (Matthew 7:15)
   • False prophets often twist Scripture to suit their own agendas (2 Peter 2:1).Handling Prophecy with Humility
2. "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things." (2 Peter 1:20)

Prophecy should be approached with care and reliance on the Holy Spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

Premillenialism
Postmillenialism
Amillienialism
Allmillenialism

Allmillenialism isn't a recognized view according to Google, plus in many decades I have never seen the term but would be interested in how it's defined. It would be a personal view with a new name someone invented for themselves or a small group. I've heard another guy come up with his own name/version as well but I don't recall what he called it.

 

[Davy]

Paul also wrote this

1 Timothy 2:4-5
God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth, which is, There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only one who can bring us to God.

Yes, which is similar to this that Peter said...

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

 

[JohnDB]

Allmillenialism isn't a recognized view according to Google, plus in many decades I have never seen the term but would be interested in how it's defined. It would be a personal view with a new name someone invented for themselves or a small group. I've heard another guy come up with his own name/version as well but I don't recall what he called it.

That prophecy is always true even when it describes future events. That many eschatons have happened and will continue to happen....that Jesus has returned, is returning currently and will continue to come in the future.

That's the viewpoint in a very brief nutshell. I'm not an expert on eschatology....but that was what I was told.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes, which is similar to this that Peter said...

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

So yes God wants all to be saved so why do you think He would purposely stand in the way of someone being saved? Scripture can't contradict itself.

 

[ewq1938]

That prophecy is always true even when it describes future events. That many eschatons have happened and will continue to happen....that Jesus has returned, is returning currently and will continue to come in the future.

That's the viewpoint in a very brief nutshell. I'm not an expert on eschatology....but that was what I was told.

It's false. The second coming is a real event that happens one time in the future.

 

[Davy]

So yes God wants all to be saved so why do you think He would purposely stand in the way of someone being saved? Scripture can't contradict itself.

Apostle Paul answered that in the Romans 11 chapter, which I have already shown. It was so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

 

[Zao is life]

Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological model. It is a fabrication invented due to the destruction of Israel in 70ad. Scholars were left with nothing to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel so they invented the church/Israel replacement model. However, with the reemergence of Israel as a nation we see an entity that is totally equipped to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel. Amil might have been a needed crutch at one time but events that occured in 1948 make the entire dogma an obsolete fabrication.
The fulfillment of this proves it:
Am 9:14-15
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.

The central and crucial role in all the prophecies regarding the restoration of the Jews to the land of their fathers is that which is played by the Messiah, the seed of Abraham, Himself.

No prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel to the land without the Messiah's direct involvement is God's hand doing it.

If it happens without the Messiah's direct involvement then it's the people who did it for themselves, like Abraham fathering a son by Hagar.

IMO too many Christians think Hagar is the free woman and Ishmael the seed of promise, just because His name is Isaac (spiritually he is Ishmael if he lives in rejection of Christ).

The state was created by them themselves, even while they were and still are in rejection the Messiah's authority and do not even believe in Him, which is why their human endevor has not been blessed so that they are able to live in peace and prosperity. In fact, their survival is perilous.

There is only one seed of promise. He will fulfill the prophecies when He returns. Zechariah chapters 12-14. It's all one and the same prophecy, and it's one prophecy among many others.

The prophecies have not been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled without the Messiah's direct involvement.

And this fact has nothing to do with Amillennialism. Amillennialism is a theology based on false doctrines, based on misinterpretations of scripture, born in fallible human minds, that has no effect over whether or not the Jews created their own state (doing it for themselves between the late 19th century and 1948 through their own Zionist movement that did not and still does not have the Messiah's involvement, because they are still in rejection of Him).

Israel is a legitimate state because its independence was recognized by the U.N but it is DEFINITELY NOT living in peace. "They" are intent on annihilating them all and lifting the "burden".

Support Israel only because when it comes to people's actions and motives in this world you support what is right and reject what is wrong - not because you have joined the insulting (Christian) chorus regarding God's involvement (because it's an insult to God for Christians to falsely assert that He created the state of Israel in 1948 when indeed it was secular, Christ-rejecting Jews doing it for themselves, through their own Zionist movement).

Support Israel because when it comes to their perilous state, God says we are not to put evil for good and good for evil, darkness for light and light for darkness. But do not insult God by asserting that He created Israel as though the Messiah Jesus Christ was directly involved as the prophecies state He will be.

The fact that God din' do nothing regarding the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 has nothing to do with Amillennialism, and everything to do with secular Jews doing it for themselves in rejection of the Messiah through their own Zionist movement. Amillennialism has no power either over how the prophecies should be interpreted - any more than Christ-rejecting Jews have of fulfilling the prophecies without Christ's direct involvement.

The Jews who reject Christ and the state of Israel remains Hagar and Ishmael, spiritually, until they embrace their Messiah. That's why their condition is so perilous regarding their survival, permanently.

God's elect is Christ alone. If you are not in Christ through faith in Christ you are not one of the elect.

 

[Davy]

IMO too many Christians think Hagar is the free woman and Ishmael the seed of promise, just because His name is Isaac (spiritually he is Ishmael if he lives in rejection of Christ).

Sounds like you are trying to reverse what The Bible actually says as written. Hagar represents the children of the bondwoman, per Apostle Paul in Galatians 4, that is clear. And just because unbelieving Jews still exist today who still reject Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah NEVER means they represent Hagar or her son Ishmael.

Instead... the children of Ishmael (Arabs) are jealous... of the Jews, even unbelieving Jews, simply because God's Birthright went through Abraham's son Isaac per HIS Promise, when Abraham's actual firstborn son was Ishmael. One can even still find Arab clerics today talking about that very thing on some of their websites (I just happened upon one of them one day.)

Per Apostle Paul in Romans 11, he showed that God has placed the "spirit of stupor" upon the majority of his brethren the unbelieving Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul then told those of us in Christ to not be conceited in wrongly thinking that God had cast those Jews away, because when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God is going to remove that spiritual blindness against The Gospel that He put upon those Jews. That will only happen at Christ's future 2nd coming. So still, we are NOT to think of those unbelieving Jews as being 'cut off' just yet. And to think so Paul calls being conceited.

 

[JohnDB]

It's false. The second coming is a real event that happens one time in the future.

I've subscribed to none of them.
I don't promote any viewpoint....
I believe they are all incorrect.

 

[Marty fox]

Apostle Paul answered that in the Romans 11 chapter, which I have already shown. It was so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

In your view God the bible and Paul contradicted itself, so scripture can't be trusted and has no value.

In my view, that God knows that they don't want to know or accept Jesus thus the Holy Spirit honors their God given choice to believe in Jesus or not results in the Holy Spirit stopping pursuing them is the explanation of God blinding them.

My view has the bible not contradicting itself and can be trusted as truth.

 

[shepherdsword]

The central and crucial role in all the prophecies regarding the restoration of the Jews to the land of their fathers is that which is played by the Messiah, the seed of Abraham, Himself.

The Father plays the primary role

No prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel to the land without the Messiah's direct involvement is God's hand doing it.

If it happens without the Messiah's direct involvement then it's the people who did it for themselves, like Abraham fathering a son by Hagar.

This restoration is from God's hand. The fact that is even established and still exists is an ongoing miracle. This could not have been from the hand of man.

IMO too many Christians think Hagar is the free woman and Ishmael the seed of promise, just because His name is Isaac (spiritually he is Ishmael if he lives in rejection of Christ).

The state was created by them themselves, even while they were and still are in rejection the Messiah's authority and do not even believe in Him, which is why their human endevor has not been blessed so that they are able to live in peace and prosperity. In fact, their survival is perilous.

You are merely expressing an opinion that this was done by man.

There is only one seed of promise. He will fulfill the prophecies when He returns. Zechariah chapters 12-14. It's all one and the same prophecy, and it's one prophecy among many others.

The prophecies have not been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled without the Messiah's direct involvement.

The Messiah involvement is to return and defend an already gathered nation. Prove this point: "without the Messiah's direct involvement"

And this fact has nothing to do with Amillennialism. Amillennialism is a theology based on false doctrines, based on misinterpretations of scripture, born in fallible human minds,

We agree on this at least

that has no effect over whether or not the Jews created their own state (doing it for themselves between the late 19th century and 1948 through their own Zionist movement that did not and still does not have the Messiah's involvement, because they are still in rejection of Him).

The nation will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith to the elect jews.
two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8) The remaining elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" (Matt 23:39) and so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)

Israel is a legitimate state because its independence was recognized by the U.N but it is DEFINITELY NOT living in peace. "They" are intent on annihilating them all and lifting the "burden".

hence the coming was that will culminate in the return of Jesus

Support Israel only because when it comes to people's actions and motives in this world you support what is right and reject what is wrong - not because you have joined the insulting (Christian) chorus regarding God's involvement (because it's an insult to God for Christians to falsely assert that He created the state of Israel in 1948 when indeed it was secular, Christ-rejecting Jews doing it for themselves, through their own Zionist movement).

Support Israel because when it comes to their perilous state, God says we are not to put evil for good and good for evil, darkness for light and light for darkness. But do not insult God by asserting that He created Israel as though the Messiah Jesus Christ was directly involved as the prophecies state He will be.

The fact that God din' do nothing regarding the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 has nothing to do with Amillennialism, and everything to do with secular Jews doing it for themselves in rejection of the Messiah through their own Zionist movement. Amillennialism has no power either over how the prophecies should be interpreted - any more than Christ-rejecting Jews have of fulfilling the prophecies without Christ's direct involvement.

It was God himself that regathered Israel to the promised land. It was by his hand alone that he turned the hearts of men to re-establish it.

The Jews who reject Christ and the state of Israel remains Hagar and Ishmael, spiritually, until they embrace their Messiah. That's why their condition is so perilous regarding their survival, permanently.

God's elect is Christ alone. If you are not in Christ through faith in Christ you are not one of the elect.

As I mentioned above. All of Israel will be saved by turning to Christ and having faith in him. This will happen after 2/3rds of jews in the land are whipped out by the coming war.