Limited atonement !

[Ritajanice]

The post is much to long to make specific statements on each of your statements. Since they all deal with the same content, dealing with the Holy Spirit I'll confine my remarks to that subject.
You have a view of the Holy Spirit and how one gets the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is not scriptural. By scriptural, meaning not by some modern man's interpretation.

Biblical, on how we are Born Of The Spirit.

John 3​

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King James Version​

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3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit

I hold to the view that if a doctrine has not been believed from the beginning, from Apostolic times a and continued to the present day it is not scriptural.
Scripture teaches that one must believe, repent and be baptised and then you will receive the Holy Spirit. I gave this to you earlier with the texts to support that view. You cannot find in scripture that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was given to an unbeliever, or one who has not believed.

I’ve given you countless scripture....we are Born Of The Spirit...the word does not say that we are “ given the Holy Spirit....

As to permanence: If one cannot lose faith then Paul in I Thess 5:19 admonishing against quenching the Holy Spirit would be a false statement. If as you say, we cannot lose faith, then we surely do not need to be admonished about quenching Him.

A Doctrine doesn’t birth one’s spirit...sorry, I can’t see this going anywhere.....I am 100% secure in my faith because it was God given...my spirit knows that it’s Born Again..

I wish you well on finding Gods truth...I’ve already found the truth, regarding becoming Born Again...I don’t need any truth from man or woman to know that my spirit was permanently Born Of The Spirit 33 years ago.

1 Corinthians 2:6-13​

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King James Version​

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6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.



Good day...

 

[Ritajanice]

I was taught and my own study - and believed.



We don't need to be born again unless we desire to know Him, to believe and accept His call to repent.

I see Him in His creation as well.

Because the Holy Spirit has worked upon all men, calling them. Rom 1:18-24 explains why men living way in the beginning could know God. Some did not believer, others like Abraham believed, or Noah.

By faith and the testament of the early Church and History.

See all the above

Natural man is one not yet joined to Christ, unenlightened or unregenerate. For such people divine things are foolishness because they use human wisdom and reasoning, rather than by faith.

No point in taking this any further.we are on different levels of spiritual understanding...

I have spoken from the heart of my spirit, where the Spirit indwells....my testimony is from the Living Holy Spirit.....

no point arguing over what one believes...

I stand on all of my posts...I represent the Father and I’m called not to argue, only to defend what I believe and my faith...I’ve done that ..I don’t need to keep arguing over belief, as unfortunately that is what it has turned into.

I will leave you to continue your argument, only it won’t be with me.

Good day.

 

[Ritajanice]

You cannot read the bible and "decide" to become a Christian. John 3:3-8 - says it all. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus makes a distinction between flesh and Spirit. Nobody can explain to you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You have to experience this. There is no logic to explain it.

Excellent post...resonates 100% with my spirit....Amen!

This was me before my spirit became Born Of The Spirit....even after becoming Born Of The Spirit, only God has been able to bring me to understand spiritual matters.....Praise God that we communicate with him from within our inner man/ spirit...which has got to be the biggest Honour and Privilege one can receive.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one


No one in a million years could understand the rebirth in the natural man....it’s true what God says, when he says, that it would be folly to the natural man.....

We must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God...we are in this world...we are no longer of this world...Praise God...

 

[Rockerduck]

That may be your interpretation but is not scriptural. Having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a gift given ONLY to believers. Peter spells out the sequence in Acts 2:38, Believe, repent, be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Which is the same as Johm3:5

Those are the Words of Jesus, not mine. I didn't interpret anything, that's what Jesus said.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's Jesus talking, not my words. Did Jesus mention baptism, nope.

John 14:17 - even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Yep, Jesus said that tool. No interpretation needed here either. That's what Born again means. The spirit indwells, the Christian.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus's own words, unless you are called by God, your salvation will not happen.

 

[Rightglory]

Those are the Words of Jesus, not mine. I didn't interpret anything, that's what Jesus said.

It's not interpretation. It's understanding. It has been clearly understood now for 2000 years and has not changed except for your understanding.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's Jesus talking, not my words. Did Jesus mention baptism, nope.

Belief comes before baptism.

John 14:17 - even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

He is referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is a gift given to those that have believed and been baptised,

Yep, Jesus said that tool. No interpretation needed here either. That's what Born again means. The spirit indwells, the Christian.

Precisely

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus's own words, unless you are called by God, your salvation will not happen

Very true, The work of the Holy Spirit is to call men to repentance. But we still need to believe, No man will be excluded. No man will be able to give an excuse at the judgement that they didn't know God.

 

[shepherdsword]

You cannot read the bible and "decide" to become a Christian. John 3:3-8 - says it all. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You should have kept reading down to 3:16

Jn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It's clear the new birth happens when faith combines with the word. This union produces the new birth

Ro 10:9-11
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The new birth doesn't happen because one is a member of some gnostic hyper spiritual chosen club. It is available to anyone who DECIDES to have faith in Jesus Christ.

Rv 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rv 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus makes a distinction between flesh and Spirit. Nobody can explain to you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You have to experience this. There is no logic to explain it.

The bible explains it very well. I have experienced the Lord's call and the Father drawing me to the Son. I believed and as a result I was born again.

 

[brightfame52]

John 6:51 and John 10:11 are compatible, and show that the world Christ gave His Life for was the world of His Sheep,

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

In both scriptures Jesus uses the for hyper which means:

1. in behalf of, for the sake of

He specifically tells us who the world is in Jn 10:11 in stating "the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." 2

 

[Rightglory]

John 6:51 and John 10:11 are compatible, and show that the world Christ gave His Life for was the world of His Sheep,


I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

This is a eucharist statement looking forward to the feast. It means His offering is not just for His people but also for the life of the world.
I have yet to see any translation, Greek to English that translates WORLD to elect. World is cosmos or world order. It matches IJohn 2:2.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

In both scriptures Jesus uses the for hyper which means:

1. in behalf of, for the sake of

Yes, correct meaning, However it says FOR THE SHEEP. Not His or My sheep. Big, huge difference.
He specifically tells us who the world is in Jn 10:11 in stating "the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." Again it is THE SHEEP. True also for John 10:15. As far as I know there is a difference in meaning from MY, and THE. Just another nail in the coffin of Limited atonement.

 

[brightfame52]

This is a eucharist statement looking forward to the feast. It means His offering is not just for His people but also for the life of the world.
I have yet to see any translation, Greek to English that translates WORLD to elect. World is cosmos or world order. It matches IJohn 2:2.

Yes, correct meaning, However it says FOR THE SHEEP. Not His or My sheep. Big, huge difference.
He specifically tells us who the world is in Jn 10:11 in stating "the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." Again it is THE SHEEP. True also for John 10:15. As far as I know there is a difference in meaning from MY, and THE. Just another nail in the coffin of Limited atonement.

More jibberish

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep. Jn 10

So true! Jesus' death made all men savable, but only the elect receive teh atonement.

In all my dealings on christian forums, most people think atonement means propitiation.

Propitiation means the acceptable sacxrifice, which Jesus' blood is certainly for all mankind.

Atonement in the NT means an erasure of sins, and that is limited only to those who are the chosen, elect, predestined. and foreordained.

 

[Rockerduck]

You should have kept reading down to 3:16

Jn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It's clear the new birth happens when faith combines with the word. This union produces the new birth

Ro 10:9-11
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The new birth doesn't happen because one is a member of some gnostic hyper spiritual chosen club. It is available to anyone who DECIDES to have faith in Jesus Christ.

Rv 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Rv 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


The bible explains it very well. I have experienced the Lord's call and the Father drawing me to the Son. I believed and as a result I was born again.

I didn't need to read down. What's your point?

 

[brightfame52]

@Ronald Nolette

So true! Jesus' death made all men savable,

Sorry but thats error

Propitiation means the acceptable sacxrifice, which Jesus' blood is certainly for all mankind.

Thats error

Atonement in the NT means an erasure of sins, and that is limited only to those who are the chosen, elect, predestined. and foreordained.

Thats Truth

 

[shepherdsword]

I didn't need to read down. What's your point?

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Runningman]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep. Jn 10

The "elect" can be deceived into believing in false Christs, false prophets, taking the mark of the beast, etc. Being elect isn't about being predestined to salvation unfortunately.

Matthew 24
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[brightfame52]

Christs death is limited to them that do as He commands Jn 15:13-14

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

He died only for them who obey Him Heb 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 2

 

[brightfame52]

@Runningman

The "elect" can be deceived into believing in false Christs, false prophets, taking the mark of the beast, etc. Being elect isn't about being predestined to salvation unfortunately.

This is so blatantly false, Im not going to take time to deal with it

 

[brightfame52]

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Thats the elect, the Sheep ! Jn 10:27-28

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Rockerduck]

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You are preaching to the choir.

 

[Rightglory]

So true! Jesus' death made all men savable, but only the elect receive teh atonement.

Christ's atonement has two parts. First, He defeated death for all men, this is objective, man has no part to play in this aspect. (Saved them from death.
Secondly, He performed a sacrifice for sin. This sacrifice is not objective. When man believes and repents, confesses his sin, Christ is able to forgive those sins. Man can remain in Christ as long as he remains faithful to Christ. This is called being saved.

In all my dealings on christian forums, most people think atonement means propitiation.

Propitiation means the acceptable sacxrifice, which Jesus' blood is certainly for all mankind.

Atonement in the NT means an erasure of sins, and that is limited only to those who are the chosen, elect, predestined. and foreordained.

Atonement means reconciliation. Christ made man right with God by defeating death and making a sacrifice for sin.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette



Sorry but thats error



Thats error



Thats Truth

Sorry but they are all truth.

All people are savable, but not all will be saved. Only the elect.

propitiation is hilasmos which is an appeasing. Jesus is the appeasement for all the sins of the world as said in 1 JOhn 2. that means His death and resurrection is the only acceptable sacrifice God accepts for a persons sins.