SATAN, NOT BOUND YET

[Spiritual Israelite]

How does the following help Amil?

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

I already explained this. Do you not read the explanations I give? I think it's hopeless for you to even understand Amil. You spend so much time arguing against something that you apparently will never even understand. You can't refute something that you don't understand.

I'm not arguing against there being a connection with 1 Peter 5:8 with that of James 4:7. What I'm arguing against is, if Amils are correct that satan is already bound, why would anyone need to resist someone that is bound? Where is the logic in that?

You are thinking of his binding in a carnal way. You're picturing him, a spirit being, as being literally, physically tied up and unable to do anything. That's not what his binding entails from the Amil perspective. Are you able to take your Premil glasses off and at least try to look at things from our perspective for once? In our view, merely having to resist Satan and him then having to flee from us is the kind of authority that believers have over Satan that Old Testament believers did not have. We have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, so he has to back down if we resist him. Was that the case for OT saints? No, it was not because they did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

What then does it mean when he is no longer bound, thus loosed? How then do these same Amils apply James 4:7? After all, aren't they arguing that James 4:7 is not even possible unless satan is bound first? How can satan still be bound when he is loosed, lol? Assuming he is presently bound.

Peter talks in 1 Peter 5:9 about resisting him by way of standing firm in the faith. If someone loses their faith or their faith becomes weak, then that can contribute to Satan being loosed because that person either can't resist him or has to struggle mightily to resist him in that case.

You asking "How can satan still be bound when he is loosed" is just an ignorant question that shows your lack of understanding of Amil. Don't blame us for your ignorance about Amil. You know that we have explained our view to your many times. And you still don't get it. What can we do to get you to undertsand it? Nothing, apparently. So be it. But, don't blame us for that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because of Christ's defeat of Satan on the cross, we have complete authority over the enemy. He cannot do what he wants with us. We are protected by God and armed with real potent spiritual power. We merely have to submit to God, resist the devil and he must flee from us.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

Right. What Premils don't understand is that the authority we have over our spiritual enemy in New Testament times is unprecedented. As we've talked about, they believe in a big devil and small god while we believe in a big God and small devil. It was not like this in Old Testament times in terms of how people dealt with the devil. Satan had to be spiritually bound in order for us to have authority over him and in order to preach the gospel throughout the world in the power of the Holy Spirit which gives people the hope of eternal life and sets people free from the fear of death since Christ took the power of death away from Satan (Hebrews 2:14-15).

 

[TribulationSigns]

Does this mean you think the day of the Lord begins at the end of the thousand years at the beginning of satan's little season, rather than at the end of satan's little season like many other Amils typically do? Why this matters is because of what 2 Peter 3 records, for one.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

And also...
1Th 5:2-3
(2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The Lord is longsuffering that ALL of His Elect, from Adam to the Last Elect, has been sealed. So He waited until the last Elect He intended to seal has been sealed, then the Day of the Lord will begin with the judgment of the unfaithful House of God with the loosening of Satan for a short season and ends on the Last Day when His Second Coming will be visible and the Judgment of the world will take place. This is why we will "know" that the Day of the Lord has come with the judgment of the whore:

Rev 18:4-10
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(6) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
(7) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

The one hour of judgment upon Babylon comes first, then Christ's Second Coming. Exactly when that day will come, we do not know but we will know it's coming because we are seeing the signs of church fall that the sun, moon and stars symbols.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And also...
1Th 5:2-3
(2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The Lord is longsuffering that ALL of His Elect, from Adam to the Last Elect, has been sealed. So He waited until the last Elect He intended to seal has been sealed, then the Day of the Lord will begin with the judgment of the unfaithful House of God with the loosening of Satan for a short season and ends on the Last Day when His Second Coming will be visible and the Judgment of the world will take place. This is why we will "know" that the Day of the Lord has come with the judgment of the whore:

Rev 18:4-10
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(6) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
(7) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

The one hour of judgment upon Babylon comes first, then Christ's Second Coming. Exactly when that day will come, we do not know but we will know it's coming because we are seeing the signs of church fall that the sun, moon and stars symbols.

I have to disagree with you here. Please read 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 more carefully. What those passages indicate is that as soon as the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, sudden destruction by fire will come down upon those in spiritual darkness and they will not escape. They will all be destroyed.

Those passages line up with Revelation 20:9 which occurs at the end of Satan's little season, not at the beginning. Right then and there when the day of the Lord arrives, sudden destruction will come upon all unbelievers. That's why it says they will not escape because it will be sudden and complete. That is when Jesus will take vengeance on all unbelievers which happens on the day He returns, as Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. It's not possible for Satan's little season to follow that. Instead, Satan's little season leads up to the day of the Lord, which is the day that Jesus will return and bring vengeance by way of "sudden destruction" on all of His enemies from which "they shall not escape".

 

[TribulationSigns]

I have to disagree with you here.

Not surprised. |

Those passages line up with Revelation 20:9 which occurs at the end of Satan's little season, not at the beginning.

No, Satan's little season started with deceiving the nations (Gentiles), Gog and Magog, right after he gets out of bottomless pit. It takes time, which is what his short season is about. Where do you suppose the camp of the saints is at? Some one location on Earth? Or all over the world, wherever the Saints are?

Rev 13:11-14
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

This is not the end yet! The false prophet, the second beast, deceives the unfaithful people and seduces them into serving this antichrist kingdom BY MEANS OF FALSE MIRACLES, SIGNS, and WONDERS. This is what the fire coming down from heaven signifies. Not that fire was sent down from heaven by these false prophets, because false prophets can't do that. Nor is there a false way to make fire come down from heaven. The fire was sent down from heaven because of the abominations the beast or false prophets brings. God sends them to deceive people without the seal of God to "believe a lie." That is the judgment of the church. This is the sign (for the Elect so they can flee to avoid the plagues upon the church) and not that they are doing any miraculous signs.

Rev 18:4-8
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(6) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
(7) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

This is NOT the Last Day. This is NOT the Second Coming yet! This is the fire from heaven caused by the beast and BEFORE it God's people are called out of the midst of her. Babylon is the church that has become apostate because of the false prophets. This is a sign! This is the city utterly burned with the fire of God from heaven BEFORE the end of the world and Christ's second coming. Only those who have not received the mark of the beast shall escape Babylon. Only they will see the sign and flee to the mountains. As lot Fled from Sodom and Gomorrah before God rained fire upon those cities also.

Right then and there when the day of the Lord arrives, sudden destruction will come upon all unbelievers. That's why it says they will not escape because it will be sudden and complete. That is when Jesus will take vengeance on all unbelievers which happens on the day He returns, as Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. It's not possible for Satan's little season to follow that. Instead, Satan's little season leads up to the day of the Lord, which is the day that Jesus will return and bring vengeance by way of "sudden destruction" on all of His enemies from which "they shall not escape".

Have you already forgotten that the judgment must take place in the House of God first, then the world? That the judgment of the Whore must take place before the Second Coming. Eg. the hour of judgment, Revelation 18:10,17,19. It is NOT the Second Coming yet but the judgment of Babylon is a prerequisite - something that we can "see" and know that Lord's coming (and judgment of the world) is right at the door.

 

[WPM]

Not surprised. |



No, Satan's little season started with deceiving the nations (Gentiles), Gog and Magog, right after he gets out of bottomless pit. It takes time, which is what his short season is about. Where do you suppose the camp of the saints is at? Some one location on Earth? Or all over the world, wherever the Saints are?

Rev 13:11-14
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

This is not the end yet! The false prophet, the second beast, deceives the unfaithful people and seduces them into serving this antichrist kingdom BY MEANS OF FALSE MIRACLES, SIGNS, and WONDERS. This is what the fire coming down from heaven signifies. Not that fire was sent down from heaven by these false prophets, because false prophets can't do that. Nor is there a false way to make fire come down from heaven. The fire was sent down from heaven because of the abominations the beast or false prophets brings. God sends them to deceive people without the seal of God to "believe a lie." That is the judgment of the church. This is the sign (for the Elect so they can flee to avoid the plagues upon the church) and not that they are doing any miraculous signs.

Rev 18:4-8
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(6) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
(7) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

This is NOT the Last Day. This is NOT the Second Coming yet! This is the fire from heaven caused by the beast and BEFORE it God's people are called out of the midst of her. Babylon is the church that has become apostate because of the false prophets. This is a sign! This is the city utterly burned with the fire of God from heaven BEFORE the end of the world and Christ's second coming. Only those who have not received the mark of the beast shall escape Babylon. Only they will see the sign and flee to the mountains. As lot Fled from Sodom and Gomorrah before God rained fire upon those cities also.



Have you already forgotten that the judgment must take place in the House of God first, then the world? That the judgment of the Whore must take place before the Second Coming. Eg. the hour of judgment, Revelation 18:10,17,19. It is NOT the Second Coming yet but the judgment of Babylon is a prerequisite - something that we can "see" and know that Lord's coming (and judgment of the world) is right at the door.

I agree, but, this is not the day of the Lord. It follows all this.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree, but, this is not the day of the Lord. It follows all this.

I understand. Maybe you should consider this first.
God sees the long period of Two Witnesses' testimony as 'DAY OF SALVATION':

2Co 6:2
(2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

So we see that this DAY of SALVATION is not a literal one day. But rather a long period of time. But yet God does limit this day!

Similarly, DAY OF THE LORD is not literal one day but a period of time determined by God. It is the period of Satan's short season, when judgment begins from the House of God. This period follows the DAY of SALVATION, the testimony of Two Witnesses. Once the beast comes out of bottomless pit, there is no more salvation available during this period. It begins from the loosing of Satan and its consummation is the return of our Lord for His saints and judgment of the wicked on the Last Day.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Am 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

See? There won't be no light of salvation during the DAY OF THE LORD.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Peace and safety is the Salvation of God (not world peace as most thought). But it will be sudden destruction upon them that they no longer can find salvation. Which is why Lord Jesus warned us to pray that we find salvation BEFORE the Great Tribulation period because it will be a time of no salvation:

Mat 24:20-21
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

A winter is a time after the harvest of salvation. Sabbath day refers to a time where no man can work (for the kingdom of God).

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So I see that the Day of the Lord begins with the judgment of the House of God and ends on the Last Day when everything shall be burned up. It will be one same judgment, first with the House for God, then the world.
So it is not possible that after external covenant church falls, there is another plan of salvation by God. Eph 4:11-13 does not allow that. Also read:

Re 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

We are merchants of the Gospel. No man will no longer be able to buy our merchandise (of salvation) ANY MORE. It is the same with when people without the seal of God will seek salvation (death in Christ) or have desire to be saved (death in Christ) in the church, but they will not find it because God has removed it.

Rev 9:4-6
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

We, Elect, who have been secured by God BEFORE the Day of the Lord will be able to witness the judgment of thee whore, Mourned over church for who she once was. We will observe the judgment of God upon His unfaithful church "IF" you know what her plagues are (different subject to discuss later). So we can see her torment that we do not want to take part:

Re 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

I don't find anywhere in Scriptures where salvation should continue DURING THE TIME which is called the Great Tribulation, a short season, the testimony of Two Witnesssees finished, the loosening of Satan, the hour of judgment of Babylon, all are the beginning of the Day of the Lord "AFTER" a long period of THE DAY OF SALVATION.

We should not give heed to our human sentiments but accept the Truth from God's Word.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not surprised. |

Why is that? I don't think we've ever discussed this before.

No, Satan's little season started with deceiving the nations (Gentiles), Gog and Magog, right after he gets out of bottomless pit. It takes time, which is what his short season is about.

What exactly are you saying here? Can you try to be more specific? You believe Satan's little season started in the past? When? How can you think that the day of the Lord starts at the beginning of Satan's little season when passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate that the day of the Lord brings global destruction upon its arrival?

Where do you suppose the camp of the saints is at? Some one location on Earth? Or all over the world, wherever the Saints are?

The camp of the saints refers to the church all over the world.

Rev 13:11-14
(11) And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

This is not the end yet!

Who said it was? Did you actually read my post or not?

The false prophet, the second beast, deceives the unfaithful people and seduces them into serving this antichrist kingdom BY MEANS OF FALSE MIRACLES, SIGNS, and WONDERS. This is what the fire coming down from heaven signifies.

No, it does not. You get carried away with spiritualizing almost everything. The fire of Revelation 20:9 is literal physical fire that will come down and destroy all of Christ's enemies on the day Christ returns. It's the same event as 2 Peter 3:10-12. Do you not think that Christ will physically destroy His enemies when He comes?

Not that fire was sent down from heaven by these false prophets, because false prophets can't do that. Nor is there a false way to make fire come down from heaven. The fire was sent down from heaven because of the abominations the beast or false prophets brings. God sends them to deceive people without the seal of God to "believe a lie." That is the judgment of the church. This is the sign (for the Elect so they can flee to avoid the plagues upon the church) and not that they are doing any miraculous signs.

Rev 18:4-8
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(6) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
(7) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

This is NOT the Last Day. This is NOT the Second Coming yet! This is the fire from heaven caused by the beast and BEFORE it God's people are called out of the midst of her. Babylon is the church that has become apostate because of the false prophets. This is a sign! This is the city utterly burned with the fire of God from heaven BEFORE the end of the world and Christ's second coming. Only those who have not received the mark of the beast shall escape Babylon. Only they will see the sign and flee to the mountains. As lot Fled from Sodom and Gomorrah before God rained fire upon those cities also.

Nope. Your view does not line up with what is written in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. Why are you not addressing what those passages actually say? You try to say that the day of the Lord starts at the beginning of Satan's little season. No, it does not. The day of the Lord comes unexpectedly and brings "sudden destruction" from which those who are in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". It's global, physical destruction that will occur when the day of the Lord, the day the Lord returns, arrives. That's what you're missing. Peter compared the scope of destruction that will happen on that day directly to the scope of destruction that happened with the flood in Noah's day (2 Peter 3:5-7) just as Jesus Himself did (Matthew 24:35-39).

Have you already forgotten that the judgment must take place in the House of God first, then the world? That the judgment of the Whore must take place before the Second Coming. Eg. the hour of judgment, Revelation 18:10,17,19. It is NOT the Second Coming yet but the judgment of Babylon is a prerequisite - something that we can "see" and know that Lord's coming (and judgment of the world) is right at the door.

Babylon is not the church. It's not talking about the entire church becoming apostate and then coming out of the church. The church is the boy of Christ. God isn't going to call us out of the church. That's ridiculous. Babylon is the spiritual opposite of the church. Similar to those who think it is either Rome or Jerusalem, your understanding of Babylon is too limited. Literally all unbelievers, and not just apostates, are spiritual citizens of Babylon just as all believers are spiritual citizens of the heavenly new Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22, Gal 4:26). When it says "come out of her" it is similar to what we read here when Paul talked about what believers should come out from:

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Babylon represents everything that leads unbelievers to reject Christ and the church. It is identified with unrighteousness, spiritual darkness, Belial worship, infidels, idol worship and so on. And God says "come out from among them" which refers to the unbelievers Paul described and God says "come out of her" which refers to the spiritual city that all unbelievers are citizens of. Come out of Babylon and come to the new heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[Davidpt]

Obviously, you assume his binding means he is completely incapacitated. Is that your understanding of what Jesus said regarding the binding of the strong man, who represents Satan?

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Please tell me your understanding of this passage. Do you think this is talking about completely incapacitating the strong man in order to "spoil his goods" and "spoil his house"? Or is it talking figuratively about binding the strong man in order to do something in particular that he can't prevent rather than preventing him from doing anything at all?

Amils are backwards in their thinking at times. You bind someone not already bound, not someone already bound. Someone already bound doesn't need to be bound, because they are already bound. Do you not realize that binding the strongman is applicable all throughout the church age and that it can take place millions of times? That what Jesus did, believers can also do as well. After all, have you not read Mark 16:17-18, for example? But why if satan is already bound a thousand years? Regardless when his thousand year binding is meaning, it's not like he gets loose from time to time, thus needs to be bound over and over again. Except he is never loosed from his thousand year binding in any manner until the thousand years expire first. Per Amil there seems to be no difference between being bound and being loosed since Amils insist 'no more' doesn't literally mean what it says.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


This same phrase 'no more' is also used in the following passage, for instance.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


Maybe 'no more' doesn't literally mean what it says here either, right?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand. Maybe you should consider this first.
God sees the long period of Two Witnesses' testimony as 'DAY OF SALVATION':

2Co 6:2
(2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

So we see that this DAY of SALVATION is not a literal one day. But rather a long period of time. But yet God does limit this day!

Yes, it is limited up to the day Jesus returns. To think God limits it to some time before then is false! In 2 Peter 3 it is taught that God is patient with people and doesn't want anyone to perish and He patiently gives people the opportunity to repent right up until the day of the Lord, which is the day Christ returns.

Similarly, DAY OF THE LORD is not literal one day but a period of time determined by God. It is the period of Satan's short season, when judgment begins from the House of God. This period follows the DAY of SALVATION, the testimony of Two Witnesses. Once the beast comes out of bottomless pit, there is no more salvation available during this period. It begins from the loosing of Satan and its consummation is the return of our Lord for His saints and judgment of the wicked on the Last Day.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Am 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

See? There won't be no light of salvation during the DAY OF THE LORD.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Peace and safety is the Salvation of God (not world peace as most thought). But it will be sudden destruction upon them that they no longer can find salvation. Which is why Lord Jesus warned us to pray that we find salvation BEFORE the Great Tribulation period because it will be a time of no salvation:

Mat 24:20-21
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

A winter is a time after the harvest of salvation. Sabbath day refers to a time where no man can work (for the kingdom of God).

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So I see that the Day of the Lord begins with the judgment of the House of God and ends on the Last Day when everything shall be burned up. It will be one same judgment, first with the House for God, then the world.
So it is not possible that after external covenant church falls, there is another plan of salvation by God. Eph 4:11-13 does not allow that. Also read:

Re 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

We are merchants of the Gospel. No man will no longer be able to buy our merchandise (of salvation) ANY MORE. It is the same with when people without the seal of God will seek salvation (death in Christ) or have desire to be saved (death in Christ) in the church, but they will not find it because God has removed it.

Rev 9:4-6
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

We, Elect, who have been secured by God BEFORE the Day of the Lord will be able to witness the judgment of thee whore, Mourned over church for who she once was. We will observe the judgment of God upon His unfaithful church "IF" you know what her plagues are (different subject to discuss later). So we can see her torment that we do not want to take part:

Re 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

I don't find anywhere in Scriptures where salvation should continue DURING THE TIME which is called the Great Tribulation, a short season, the testimony of Two Witnesssees finished, the loosening of Satan, the hour of judgment of Babylon, all are the beginning of the Day of the Lord "AFTER" a long period of THE DAY OF SALVATION.

We should not give heed to our human sentiments but accept the Truth from God's Word.

You need to take your own advice of your last sentence here. Nowhere does it indicate that the day of salvation is over before the day Jesus returns. Again, Peter indicates in 2 Peter 3 that God patiently gives people the opportunity to repent up until the day of the Lord and the day of the Lord is the day that Jesus returns. You are absolutely wrong in your understanding of the day of the Lord. That day is a literal 24 hour day. When that day arrives it will result in the heavens and earth being burned and renewed by fire, resulting in the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

[Davidpt]

I understand. Maybe you should consider this first.
God sees the long period of Two Witnesses' testimony as 'DAY OF SALVATION':

2Co 6:2
(2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

So we see that this DAY of SALVATION is not a literal one day. But rather a long period of time. But yet God does limit this day!

Similarly, DAY OF THE LORD is not literal one day but a period of time determined by God. It is the period of Satan's short season, when judgment begins from the House of God. This period follows the DAY of SALVATION, the testimony of Two Witnesses. Once the beast comes out of bottomless pit, there is no more salvation available during this period. It begins from the loosing of Satan and its consummation is the return of our Lord for His saints and judgment of the wicked on the Last Day.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Am 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

See? There won't be no light of salvation during the DAY OF THE LORD.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Peace and safety is the Salvation of God (not world peace as most thought). But it will be sudden destruction upon them that they no longer can find salvation. Which is why Lord Jesus warned us to pray that we find salvation BEFORE the Great Tribulation period because it will be a time of no salvation:

Mat 24:20-21
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

A winter is a time after the harvest of salvation. Sabbath day refers to a time where no man can work (for the kingdom of God).

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So I see that the Day of the Lord begins with the judgment of the House of God and ends on the Last Day when everything shall be burned up. It will be one same judgment, first with the House for God, then the world.
So it is not possible that after external covenant church falls, there is another plan of salvation by God. Eph 4:11-13 does not allow that. Also read:

Re 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

We are merchants of the Gospel. No man will no longer be able to buy our merchandise (of salvation) ANY MORE. It is the same with when people without the seal of God will seek salvation (death in Christ) or have desire to be saved (death in Christ) in the church, but they will not find it because God has removed it.

Rev 9:4-6
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

We, Elect, who have been secured by God BEFORE the Day of the Lord will be able to witness the judgment of thee whore, Mourned over church for who she once was. We will observe the judgment of God upon His unfaithful church "IF" you know what her plagues are (different subject to discuss later). So we can see her torment that we do not want to take part:

Re 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

I don't find anywhere in Scriptures where salvation should continue DURING THE TIME which is called the Great Tribulation, a short season, the testimony of Two Witnesssees finished, the loosening of Satan, the hour of judgment of Babylon, all are the beginning of the Day of the Lord "AFTER" a long period of THE DAY OF SALVATION.

We should not give heed to our human sentiments but accept the Truth from God's Word.

One thing that might be in your favor, all of the last 7 vials of wrath are involving the day of the Lord. In my view anyway. Some of those vials being poured out are obviously meaning before Christ bodily returns, and is obviously involving more than a literal single day. Some argue that only the 7th vial involves the day of the Lord, but not any of the other vials as well. I don't see that argument making sense myself since I don't see it being reasonable that some of the vials of wrath are not involving the day of the Lord.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amils are backwards in their thinking at times.

You have no credibility in your comments about Amils. You don't even understand what we believe, as evidenced by how you misrepresent our view repeatedly, so you should not try to speak for Amils.

You bind someone not already bound, not someone already bound.

LOL. What in the world are you even saying here? Come on, David. Get real. We do not say that Satan is already bound before he is bound. Are you purposely lying about what we believe or are you just hopelessly ignorant?

Someone already bound doesn't need to be bound, because they are already bound.

LOL. Are you serious with these comments? Amils do not believe that Satan is already bound when he is bound. Do you not care that you completely misrepresent Amil? Again, do you do it on purpose or are you just ignorant? Which is it?

Do you not realize that binding the strongman is applicable all throughout the church age and that it can take place millions of times?

What are you talking about? Do you have any idea of what it means to spoil the strong man's goods and his house? What do you think are the strong man's goods and what do you think is the strong man's house?

That what Jesus did, believers can also do as well. After all, have you not read Mark 16:17-18, for example?

Will you please stop asking me ridiculous questions? You know I have read that. I, like most here, I assume including you, have read the entire Bible.

But why if satan is already bound a thousand years? Regardless when his thousand year binding is meaning, it's not like he gets loose from time to time, thus needs to be bound over and over again.

Can you stop looking at his binding only from your own perspective for a minute so that you can understand the Amil perspective of His binding? If you only look at it from your own perspective of it having something to do with physically incapacitating Satan then you will never understand the Amil perspective of his binding. Amils do not say that he is bound a bunch of times and gets loosed a bunch of times and the process goes back and forth "millions of times". No.

You don't understand what Amils believe Satan was bound from doing, so you keep misrepresenting our understanding of his binding. He was bound from preventing the word of God, the gospel and the good news of Christ's death and resurrection bringing the hope of eternal life to the world.

You need to think about how things were in Old Testament times copmared to New Testament times. If you read Ephesians 2:11-13 you can see that Paul said the Gentiles had no hope and were without God in the world in OT times. Has that been the case in NT times? No! A multitude of Gentiles have been saved in NT times. How? Satan needed to be bound in order for that to happen. He could no longer hold the power of death that he held in OT times.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Can you see here that before Christ's death the devil had the power of death that he was able to use to keep people in bondage to the fear of death? People, for the most part, had no hope of eternal life in that time. And that was largely due to Satan being allowed to have the power of death and to wield that over people, keeping them in bondage to the fear of death. He needed to be spiritually bound so that he longer had that kind of power so that people could hear the gospel and be set free from their fear of death and instead have the hope of eternal life through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Except he is never loosed from his thousand year binding in any manner until the thousand years expire first.

I agree. Why do you say this as if Amils would disagree with it? Satan is never loosed from being prevented from keeping the gospel from being preached throughout the world until the thousand years expire first.

Can you see how you think you are saying things that refute Amil, but it's only because of your lack of understanding of Amil? You say things you think we disagree with, but we don't. You are ignorant of what we believe. You argue against something you call Amil, but doesn't actually exist. No one actually believes the things that you argue against. No Amil would disagree with your comment, yet you say it as if it refutes Amil. It's ridiculous.

Per Amil there seems to be no difference between being bound and being loosed since Amils insist 'no more' doesn't literally mean what it says.

Total nonsense! Do you want to be taken seriously or not? I can't take you seriously as long as you say ludicrous things like this. So, stop doing it if you want to be taken seriously. Imagine me telling you that Premils see no difference between being bound and being loosed. What a joke. You complain about me supposedly treating you like you're stupid, but you say things like this about Amils as if we're stupid. Thinking being bound and loosed is the same? That's utterly stupid. But, that's what you think we believe? Give me a break already.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


This same phrase 'no more' is also used in the following passage, for instance.

Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


Maybe 'no more' doesn't literally mean what it says here either, right?

It does mean what it says and no Amil has said otherwise. So, you're being ridiculous here. You make one ignorant comment after another, proving that you have no idea of what Amils believe. You should stop wasting your time trying to refute a view that you have no understanding of. Why it is that you can't understand what we believe, I don't know, but you don't.

From the Amil perspective, Satan cannot silence the preaching of the gospel and use the power of death to keep people in slavery to the fear of death no more until the thousand years expire, and then he will be allowed to do so again. That's how I understand it. So, can you see that I also take "no more" literally? You don't have to interpret it the way you do in order to take "no more" literally. Whatever Satan is bound from doing, he can't do it "no more" during the thousand years and can only do it again once the thousand years are over. Amils understand that to be true just as much as Premils do. We just don't have the same understanding of his binding as you do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One thing that might be in your favor, all of the last 7 vials of wrath are involving the day of the Lord. In my view anyway.

What evidence do you have to back that up?

We can see from 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 that the arrival of the day of the Lord brings "sudden destruction" by fire from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". So, does that line up with your understanding of what happens iwth the 7 vials of wrath? If not, then not all of the 7 vials of wrath involve the day of the Lord according to what is described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Some of those vials being poured out are obviously meaning before Christ bodily returns, and is obviously involving more than a literal single day. Some argue that only the 7th vial involves the day of the Lord, but not any of the other vials as well. I don't see that argument making sense myself since I don't see it being reasonable that some of the vials of wrath are not involving the day of the Lord.

And what is your reasoning behind that?

 

[WPM]

I understand. Maybe you should consider this first.
God sees the long period of Two Witnesses' testimony as 'DAY OF SALVATION':

2Co 6:2
(2) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

So we see that this DAY of SALVATION is not a literal one day. But rather a long period of time. But yet God does limit this day!

Similarly, DAY OF THE LORD is not literal one day but a period of time determined by God. It is the period of Satan's short season, when judgment begins from the House of God. This period follows the DAY of SALVATION, the testimony of Two Witnesses. Once the beast comes out of bottomless pit, there is no more salvation available during this period. It begins from the loosing of Satan and its consummation is the return of our Lord for His saints and judgment of the wicked on the Last Day.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jer 46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Am 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

See? There won't be no light of salvation during the DAY OF THE LORD.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Peace and safety is the Salvation of God (not world peace as most thought). But it will be sudden destruction upon them that they no longer can find salvation. Which is why Lord Jesus warned us to pray that we find salvation BEFORE the Great Tribulation period because it will be a time of no salvation:

Mat 24:20-21
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

A winter is a time after the harvest of salvation. Sabbath day refers to a time where no man can work (for the kingdom of God).

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So I see that the Day of the Lord begins with the judgment of the House of God and ends on the Last Day when everything shall be burned up. It will be one same judgment, first with the House for God, then the world.
So it is not possible that after external covenant church falls, there is another plan of salvation by God. Eph 4:11-13 does not allow that. Also read:

Re 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

We are merchants of the Gospel. No man will no longer be able to buy our merchandise (of salvation) ANY MORE. It is the same with when people without the seal of God will seek salvation (death in Christ) or have desire to be saved (death in Christ) in the church, but they will not find it because God has removed it.

Rev 9:4-6
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

We, Elect, who have been secured by God BEFORE the Day of the Lord will be able to witness the judgment of thee whore, Mourned over church for who she once was. We will observe the judgment of God upon His unfaithful church "IF" you know what her plagues are (different subject to discuss later). So we can see her torment that we do not want to take part:

Re 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

I don't find anywhere in Scriptures where salvation should continue DURING THE TIME which is called the Great Tribulation, a short season, the testimony of Two Witnesssees finished, the loosening of Satan, the hour of judgment of Babylon, all are the beginning of the Day of the Lord "AFTER" a long period of THE DAY OF SALVATION.

We should not give heed to our human sentiments but accept the Truth from God's Word.

You have not proven your case. It is shown above as a day of sudden and total destruction. That is it. It is the end!

 

[Davy]

No, it is a theory. It is a biblical fact that you blindly deny because it does not fit your flawed doctrine.

Nope, you're only proposing a THEORY, not actual Bible Scripture proof for your position. The Rev.20:1-3 Scripture gives us the actual DEFINITION of what it means for Satan to be 'bound'. Nowhere else in all... of God's Word is that DETAIL given. And that is 'the' Bible Scripture proof, not just meaningless words from men's theories.

 

[Davy]

You may not call it the Church Age, but it is the period of Time from Christ's Resurrection, formation of His Church to the end of time.

Like I said, the 'Church Ages' idea is a DOCTRINE OF MEN that began from John Darby's Dispensationalist theories.

It is obvious that there have been different 'administrations' of God's Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. The KJV translators brought that idea of 'administrations' of the One Gospel of Jesus Christ into English using the word 'dispensation', and men's silly seminary created doctrinal categories sprang off from there. And since men's doctrines doing that was not enough, they then took Lord Jesus' 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia and made 7 separate dispensational Church Ages from that! Nothing but a play on men's silly doctrines they create, leaven fragments is what Lord Jesus called those kind of things in Matthew 16.

 

[TribulationSigns]

If Babylon is not the church, then what is the secret of her to the church that needs to be revealed to its servants? There is no mystery of the world system to the servants of God. Every believer knows that the world is the Devil's kingdom, and friendship with her makes us enemies of God. The world and its system is "NOT" a mystery or secret to the people of the church. What is a mystery to the church is its people within it being deceived. That's what deception is. It's the people there not knowing that they don't have the truth because they are deceived. It's a mystery or secret to them. And except God reveal it to them, Babylon will remain a secret to them. Even as the word of God warned its people time and time again.

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

It's not that God has not revealed the mystery, it's that so many people in the church are blinded to the mystery because of their sins. Just as the congregation of Israel was before them. You ask, "what is a mystery (Revelation 17:7) to the church?" ...the answer is, to many it is the degradation of its composition. Just as it was a mystery to God's congregation over 2000 years ago that Gentiles were going to be a part of it. Likewise, it is a mystery that iniquity was in it but it was being hindered by God in its working so that a remnant (the true congregation) could be sealed. A mystery that the Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees, never could figure out, as they believed ALL Israel were God's chosen people. A mystery that was also revealed to the messengers of the seven churches of Asia. Even as He warned the Messengers of those churches:

Revelation 2:16-17

• "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
• [He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

As God warned the messengers of those churches, so God warns the messengers of today's churches. But they (to a large degree) are not hearing Him because "truth" is a mystery to them.

Babylon in Revelation is noted by God as a symbol or representation of the one great city called Jerusalem, the church as it has fallen into captivity because she has been deceived and is deluded that she is serving God. Just as the congregation of Israel was. Her true composition is a secret/mystery to most in her "because" they are unfaithful people who are under a strong delusion because they refuse to receive the love of God's truth. Just like many here who say, "No, the church can't be Babylon because it is God's people." ...just like Israel said. Or as God also illustrated many times.

Lamentations 4:12-13

• "The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem.
• For the sins of her prophets, and the iniquities of her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the midst of her."

It's always for the same reason. God's people were overcome by the enemy because of her own sins. The moniker Babylon is to represent captivity. Even as Israel went into captivity in Babylon because of her sins. The mystery of Babylon is seen in the imagery of Revelation chapter 17 where we see that superficially (on the outside) she "appears" good, clean, valuable, precious, the righteous congregation of the Lord. But it is further revealed that within the golden cup that she offers, is hypocrisy, filth, uncleanness, and abominations to God. This is how she deceives by sight, rather than the evidence of her works. A tree is known by its fruits, not its appearance as a tree. This whore appears as clothed in Royalty (see the appearance of the Lord's priests in the Old Testament), but her appearance hides her abominations. That is the secret or mystery, and also why (without the grace of God) many professing Christians mistake her (deceived by her) to be the beautiful, royal, kingly, house of God. She is contemptuously mimicking (Jeremiah 52:19) the Lord's house.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nowhere does it indicate that the day of salvation is over before the day Jesus returns.

I have presented tons of Scripture on this here and else where. Your denial is between you and God.

Again, Peter indicates in 2 Peter 3 that God patiently gives people the opportunity to repent up until the day of the Lord and the day of the Lord is the day that Jesus returns. You are absolutely wrong in your understanding of the day of the Lord. That day is a literal 24 hour day. When that day arrives it will result in the heavens and earth being burned and renewed by fire, resulting in the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

2Pe 3:8-13
(8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
(12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

First, you misunderstand here. God is not patient with us waiting to see if we can try convert EVERYONE on Earth, but patient waiting for whoever HE HAS ELECTED to come to the point in time where He has ordained they be saved. Selah! We just don't know who are God's predestined to be elect but we are commanded to preach to EVERY creature anyway.

I believe that when Satan is loosed after the sealing (Revelation 7). There is no more sacrifice, meaning the program of salvation is completed. It is a time of great tribulation greater than has ever been, but there is tribulation before the loosing of Satan.

You need to read Revelation 7 referring only to the Church age, that might be feasible except that the scriptures specifically declare that those sealed were all those of the tribes of Israel, and that they had to be saved prior to the judgment. In other words, the judgment was withheld "until" all the tribes of Israel were saved.

Revelation 7:3

• "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Which seems to indicate that "all" the servants of God had to be sealed "prior" to this judgment that He sends upon the earth, sea and trees (professed Christians within his congregation) to hurt them. Clearly, the sealing is for their securing "from" this judgment. From the context we can discern that the "purpose" of God's longsuffering or patience is because He doesn't want to bring this judgment until all His servants are saved! Period! Because it would "hurt" them. His servants "had" to be sealed FIRST!

2nd Peter 3:9

• "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

2nd Peter 3:15

• "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

The purpose of God's patience in forbidding this hurting the earth, sea and trees, is because He is waiting for all salvation to be accomplished for all His Chosen Elect.

Revelation 7:4

• "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

God says hurt not the earth, sea and trees until all the spiritual tribes of the children of Israel are saved. And He counts the number of them, which number is "again" illustrating that these are the fullness of all Israel. The Israel that is saved is the whole body of believers, it is not those of the external Church age. An hundred and forty and four thousand clearly illustrates the whole body of believers (See Revelation 21-22). And so I think that the idea that this only refers to salvation in the Church era or age is inconsistent and out of harmony with both the context, and the rest of scripture. Scripture illustrates that not a great multitude will be saved at this time after all Israel is saved (a contradiction), but an apostasy so great that if the days weren't shortened, no flesh would be saved (Matthew 24). Because when all the tribes of Israel are saved, an hundred and forty and four thousand, you cannot have more Israel being saved after this!

When the Church age is over, I believe that salvation will be over. And I don't believe we're going to know when that period is. Why? Becaue we do not know when the last Elect was secured. We do not know when Satan is loosened. We do not know when God's sealing of 144,000 is finished. We just know when we see the SIGNS and occupy till He comes.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You have not proven your case. It is shown above as a day of sudden and total destruction. That is it. It is the end!

Well, that is your opinion thinking the sudden destruction is physical on the Last Day (which I do not deny that there will be).

However, according to my understanding of Scripture, I believe the sudden destruction is the hour of judgment upon unfaithful church where people are saying, "peace and safety" thinking the day of salvation continues in their church, not aware that God is judging her. Elect can "see" her torment, flee, standing afar off, and prophesy judgment on her before the Second Coming.

The Lord judges and I am comfortable with it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nope, you're only proposing a THEORY, not actual Bible Scripture proof for your position. The Rev.20:1-3 Scripture gives us the actual DEFINITION of what it means for Satan to be 'bound'. Nowhere else in all... of God's Word is that DETAIL given. And that is 'the' Bible Scripture proof, not just meaningless words from men's theories.

Okay... (patting on your back and smh)...