Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Cessationist much?
The New Testament teaches speaking in tongues individually although it does teach not all will speak in tongues in a public setting such as during a church service.
Why are Christians leaving their churches?
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Cessationist much?
The New Testament teaches speaking in tongues individually although it does teach not all will speak in tongues in a public setting such as during a church service.
There are many references to speaking in tongues in the Bible. The two references that probably tell us the most about tongues are Acts 2 and I Corinthians 12-14, but you have to understand that at the time there were Jews and non-Jews who came to Jerusalem and from nearby regions who spoke another languages. To communicate the early Christians needed to have been given a gift so they could understand the Gospel. So is speaking nonsensical words and utterances with no one to understand or for no practical reason spiritually, the same as the speaking in tongues given to the apostles and the early church with all the places the gospel was going to. Of course not, speaking in tongues was languages from the other kingdoms and nations that God allowed the apostles and those giving the gospel to speak to spread the message to these people.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
You obviously have not studied all that God's Word has to say about this topic... so you won't be capable of having an intelligent conversation about it
Some folks just gonna miss out on some of the gifts the Lord has given to mankind.
Some folks just gonna miss out on some of the gifts the Lord has given to mankind.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
I think that you might be right, but notice the Lord's evaluation of humans after the Flood and the future destruction in these verses:
Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Gen 8:21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
However, @Hobie, if you study 1 Corinthians 14, there is a gift of interpretation of tongues so that other hearers may understand the meaning. But you are right to say that not everyone has that gift of tongues. Paul in Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 mentions spiritual gifts without any reference to speaking in tongues. Therefore, it appears that the lists describe each church's gifts, without mentioning tongues in two of them. As a result, God gave only the Corinthians that gift among the churches he wrote to.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
I doubt that very much.
God is not a respecter of person.
God gave that gift to many others.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Speaking of tongues in a public setting.... not all have the gift of tongues and interpretation.
God has in fact given tongues to all for private use in their prayer life with the Lord... those that have been tricked by the devil to reject this truth of course don't have access to this gift because they have rejected God's Word on it.
Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Groanings - from G4726, which comes from G4726 (Strong's Greek Concordance) to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly: KJV -- with grief, groan, grudge, sigh. Inarticulate speech, or speech that is not in any known language to man
(In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul speaks of talking in the the tongues of angels - a supernatural language)
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
@Triumph1300, if you compare the three lists of spiritual gifts in Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, and Ephesians 4, you will discover that the gift of speaking in tongues is only mentioned in one. Therefore, a good conclusion is that the lists are descriptive of those churches' gifts and that only the church at Corinth was given it. It's not that God is "a respecter of persons"; it's that he gives his gifts where they are needed.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Which is why ALL who have the Holy Spirit.... have the option of the Holy Spirit praying God's perfect will thru them
There other places in scripture talking about this than the 3 you are thinking of...
Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Groanings - from G4726, which comes from G4726 (Strong's Greek Concordance) to sigh, murmur, pray inaudibly: KJV -- with grief, groan, grudge, sigh. Inarticulate speech, or speech that is not in any known language to man
(In 1 Corinthians 13:1, Paul speaks of talking in the the tongues of angels - a supernatural language)
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:2 is speaking of our personal prayer language, which is something we do in our prayer closet and not in public. Some have the gift of speaking a tongue in a public meeting for interpretation by another but should NOT be doing so if no interpreter is present.
1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
This is speaking of different kinds of tongues and that some have the gift of interpretation of tongues. Not all have the gift of speaking in tongues for interpretation in a public setting like a church service... but that does not mean all don't have the gift of tongues for their private prayer life in their prayer closet between themselves and the Lord.
1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost
1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all
Paul is indicating here that ALL should speak in tongues referring to personal prayer since not all pray in tongues in a public setting where an interpreter is present.
Isaiah 28:11,12
For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
There is a rest and knowledge that comes thru speaking in tongues
(the knowledge received has to agree with God's written Word, otherwise it's not the Holy Spirit speaking)
1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
There is much and we can see what is truly from the Holy Spirit and what is not. Today we find people muttering nonsense or useless repetitions or laughing or shaking uncontrollably or barking like dogs and roaring like wild and claiming it is speaking or manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Is this a phenomenon identical with what the Apostle Paul himself experienced and spoke gratefully about? Lets look, 1 Corinthians 14, he says in verse five:
"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues."
Verse 18:
"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you."
Verse 39:
"Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues."
In the book of Acts chapter 2 is described the Day of Pentecost. Christ had returned to heaven and His followers are waiting in Jerusalem for the promised gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:2
"Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues [or languages] as the Spirit enabled them."
Right away the question jumps out, was it useless words? Of course not, God doesnt do that.
Acts 2:4-5
"Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language."
As the rest of the chapter unfolds it has Peter preaching about the resurrected Jesus Christ, with thousands of people being converted and baptized.
The church has lost its spiritual authority over its people and its happened over the last 50 years.It has lost it spiritual authority because it has sided with the powers and ways of this world. When and if it returns to its spiritual form rejecting the world the church will gain back its spiritual authority.If the church gains back its spiritual authority people will seek out God again.
There are spiritual churches out there but many are wrapped up in politics materialism and money.
We live in a time of extreme materialism and individualism which is getting worse and inside the church.
There are spiritual churches out there but many are wrapped up in politics materialism and money.
We live in a time of extreme materialism and individualism which is getting worse and inside the church.
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Actually the scripture says...
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Those claiming this is "muttering nonsense" are close to offending the Lord.
There are different kinds of tongues
The 3 Types of Tongues (Speaking in Tongues)
1. Angelic tongues
Angelic tongues are also referred to as heavenly tongues – they are tongues of the Angels or of heaven.
1 Cor 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love …
This is the tongue Angels speak in heaven – remember we will be like the Angels in heaven (Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30) thus speaking in Angelic tongues is a shadow/taste of heaven on earth.
Angelic tongues are used to speak only to God and that is the tongue Paul the Apostle of Jesus was speaking of saying,
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit (1 Cor 14:2)
Even yourself you do not know what you are saying in Angelic tongues
1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding unfruitful
Because Angelic tongues are for you to speak only to God, the Holy Spirit will only enable you to speak in an Angelic tongue when in secret, in prayer, for our God is in secret and we do not pray as the heathens (Mt 6)
You cannot be in public, speaking to men and you speak in angelic tongues – that is a lie!
Even when Angels are send to humans to speak to them, they do not speak in Angelic tongues but in a tongue you understand, the tongues of men.
A human being has no control of Angelic tongue but they are only under subjection of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who takes over your tongue at His Will, appropriate time and place for you to speak only to God.
Since the tongue is in control of the Holy Spirit, there is no repetitions (Mt 6), you speak fluently flawlessly, and as you go on praying in Angelic tongues as Spirit enables you, you are completely encompassed and filled with joy happiness peace calmness and all fruits of the Holy Spirit to a level the world cannot comprehend.
As you speak in tongues of the Angels, every worry, problem, the world and all in it vanishes, and it is only you and heaven... Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a prerequisite to speak in Angelic tongues.
Every person who is baptized with the Holy Spirit can pray to God in secret in Angelic tongues – this is not a gift for few, for it is a taste of heaven on earth thus every person of heaven on earth can speak in Angelic tongues.
2. Tongues of men
1 Cor 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love …
Tongues of men are the languages of men – e.g. English, Spanish, French, Japanese, Chinese, etc.
Humans were created with one tongue but when they started building the tower of babel, God confused their language and tongues of men were born.
Gen 11:7 Come, let Us go down and confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech
The tongues of men are from God – God is the creator
It’s for this reason God can open a human being tongue to speak in a tongue of men s/he has never spoken nor learned, in the same manner He did to men building the tower of Babel.
The Holy Spirit has power to enable a human being speak all/any tongues of men without him/her learning them
When the Holy Spirit came down to the disciples in the Pentecost, they did not speak in Angelic tongues but were speaking in tongues of men reason every person heard a disciple speaking his/her own language as written
Acts 2: 6, 11 Now when they heard this sound, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language – we hear them declaring the mighty works of God in our own tongues!
The disciples were speaking in the tongues of the Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs (1 Acts 2: 8-11) – these are all tongues of men not of Angels.
Why were they speaking in tongues of men not of angels?
Because they were speaking publicly to men not privately in secret to God – they were declaring to men the mighty works of God in their own native languages (Acts 2:6, 11)
The Holy Spirit cannot enable a man speak tongues of Angels to fellow men – He is not confused. In the same manner Angels cannot come to man and speak in their tongues.
When speaking to humans, you must speak in a tongue the human understands or else have an interpreter – it’s a must not a request or else be quiet!
1 Cor 27:28 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret. But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.
Reason you see preachers with interpreters – the interpreters interprets from one tongue of men to another; no human being can interpret Angelic tongues and no preacher of God preaches in Angelic tongues.
You have seen preachers who in public utter words you cannot understand and they call them ‘speaking in tongues’ – be very careful
When Paul said, ‘I speak in other tongues more than all of you’ (1 Cor 14:18), Paul was saying that he speaks more tongues of men (not of Angels) that most. And yes, Paul spoke in many tongues of men.
3. Demonic tongues
Demonic tongues are the opposite of both Angelic tongues and tongues of men
Satan was an Angel, speaking in tongues of the Angels, and when he was cast from heaven, he counterfeited and made a tongue for his kingdom, kingdom of darkness.
These are the tongues used to communicate in the kingdom of darkness reason they are called demonic tongues.
There are 2 types of people in the kingdom of darkness;
- The ignorant – they are the lukewarms, hypocrites, etc, (they can quote bible verses, say name Jesus, pray, etc but with the same tongue they blaspheme Him – one leg in Jesus and another in the darkness)
- Those who know they are in darkness serving it – they include Satanists, devil worshippers, magicians, witchdoctors, sign readers, fortune tellers, top world music stars, etc
The second group of people all speak in demonic tongues – it’s a tongue of communication between them and the kingdom of darkness.
Satan uses the first group of people without their knowledge – they can speak in demonic tongues without knowing if it’s demonic or Angelic or tongues of men.
Demonic tongues are used to communicate to the kingdom of darkness e.g reason witchdoctors have to chant in tongues
You know tongues of men and can name many, but what are the differences between demonic tongues and tongues of the Angels;
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Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
Well, they have to invite their buddies to jump on the gravy train with them you know
At least until the train runs out of gravy!
Not sure what you mean as most churches have no issue with just one pastor.
Yes, but most churches are small and can only afford a few staff, i.e. one pastor, to care for the needs of the members. A large church needs more "pastors" which is often a collection of smaller groups/churches which operates under one banner/senior administrating pastor.
Depending on the lead pastor, whether a "small" or "large" church, their failures are often the same. The leadership acting God like rather than reacting under God's direction/leadership.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
If one is not benefiting from the things the Lord has provided... it's their fault, not the Lord's
shepherdsword
Active Member
Not everyone who has left the traditional church has abandoned faith in the Lord Jesus. Many are tired of the one man showmanship that has replaced body ministry. Protestants claim to uphold the "priesthood of the believer" but rarely practice it. It's one of the main reasons house churches have become so popular. People want deep relationships and the opportunity to share with others what God has given them. One can go into a mega church, hear a sermon, and leave without ever connecting with anyone, much less the "pastor". This is harder to do in a home church enviroment.
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