Babylon

[Jerry Huerta]

The same arguments between preterists and futurists over the correct interpretation of Babylon have been going on since the Jesuits conceived the eschatologies. Let me indulge in a critique of these eschatologies from an older view, the historicists’ view. Historicism rose with Protestantism; Martin Luther interpreted Daniel’s Little Horn as the papacy that rose amongst the Germanic kingdoms that supplanted Rome at its demise. To take the heat off the papacy, two Jesuit priests, Francisco Ribera (1537- 1591) and Luis de Alcazar (1554-c. 1613), concocted futurism and preterism. It’s Alcazar’s invention, preterism, that will be the focus of the thread. Still, futurism is guilty of many of the same misconceptions. This work will expose some of the misconceptions of preterism before it draws conclusions about the identity of Babylon.

To begin, the notion that God sets “up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” and that “shall not be left to other people” at Christ’s first advent is untenable in light of Daniel’s prophecies,

Daniel 2:
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces…
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel tells us Christ establishes his kingdom in the days of the feet or the ten toes of the image, or kings/horns, also conveyed in Daniel 7 and Revelation 17, which wasn’t at Christ’s first advent; Christ’s first advent was at the time of the legs of iron. Martin Luther’s interpretation of the little horn conforms to the evidence that it must have risen at the end of the Roman Empire amongst the kingdoms that supplanted it. The head, breast, belly, and legs represented consecutive kingdoms or empires; consequently, Daniel wasn’t talking about Christ’s return and filling the whole earth during the time of the Roman empire but the time of the kingdoms that supplanted Rome and did not embrace one another, but ruled simultaneously. Daniel 2:44 affirms Christ sets up his kingdom with kings that rule concurrently, just like the kings in Revelation 17. There can be no compromise on this issue if we want to interpret Babylon accurately.

Furthermore, the notion that Christ’s mediation has a separate judgment for the Jews is untenable. Christ‘s mediation commenced upon his fulfilling the antitype of the first fruits. The Old Covenant ended when Christ presented himself as the first fruits before his Father (1 Corinthians 15:20), anointing the Most Holy, and commenced his mediation (Daniel 9:24); the Old Covenant didn’t end in 70 AD,

The Celebration of Firstfruits is a biblical festival rooted in the agricultural practices of ancient Israel, marking the beginning of the harvest season… The offering of the firstfruits is a demonstration of faith, trusting that God will bless the remainder of the harvest. 1​

The law foreshadowed the harvest season (Hebrews 10:1), which is illustrated in Christ’s parables of planting and harvesting in Matthew 13. The harvest or gathering of the wheat into God’s barn wasn’t ordained for the close of the Old Covenant but the close of Christ's mediation of the New Covenant at the end of this age. At the close of this age, Christ mediates over the Church, not the Old Covenant. Christ unveiled the harvest, gathering all things that offend “the righteous” and cast them into the furnace, but the tares grew alongside the wheat until that time,

Mathew 13:
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The harvest in Matthew 13 corresponds with the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 13 is the same event, merely providing greater detail, just as 2 Peter gives us greater detail to what Christ states in the OD,

Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Christ likens “the coming of the Son of man” with the days of Noah, and so does Peter in his epistle to the “elect exiles of the dispersion” (ESV),

2 Peter 3:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

All things continue as they were from the beginning of creation until the coming of the Son of man. Those things that continue until Christ’s return would be the tares growing alongside the wheat, nation rising against nation, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, the saints being delivered up to be afflicted, killed, hated of all nation for Christ’s sake, betrayed, deceived by false prophets, iniquity abounding, love waxing cold and the “need” of the gospel to be preached to “all the world” before “the coming of the Son of man,”

Matthew 24:
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

All things considered, the Olivet Discourse follows the same apocalyptic pattern that Daniel followed in the prophecy of the seventy weeks,

Daniel 9:
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Just as Daniel cloaked the distant event of Christ’s first advent in the imminence, within a generation, of “the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem,” Christ cloaked his distant return in the imminent event in which one stone wouldn’t be left upon another at the destruction of the Herod’s temple, which agrees with Daniel’s chapter 2, that in the days of the kings that supplant Rome, he will set up his kingdom.

Revelation reveals the merchant of the earth are made rich from the power of Babylon’s luxurious living,

Revelation 18:
3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living." ESV

The Romans made the merchants rich during John’s time, not the Jews, which exposes the folly of preterism and futurism. The Jews couldn’t even sit down and eat with the Gentiles, so how could they have committed fornication with the kings of the earth and enriched the merchants before 70 AD? Furthermore, history affirms the Romans invented the “law merchant” to maintain economic hegemony in their empire, which collapsed at the end of their empire, ending the political status of the merchants in the kingdoms that supplanted Rome. With the rise of the papacy, the merchants were relegated to an inferior position in society and kept there until the rise of Protestantism. It was the Protestants that held intercourse with the kings of the earth and established secular societies in the world in which the merchants were enriched, in fulfillment of the prophecy that there would be a great falling away before the Day of the LORD,

2 Thessalonians 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.KJV

Furthermore, the Romans were pagans and couldn’t fall from moral rectitude; that’s a covenantal issue, which is only applicable to the covenantal people of God. The first-century Jews don’t fit the prophecy in any substantive study, and neither do the Jews in our time; only apostate, liberal Protestantism fits the prophecy of the Mystery of Babylon, and from a Historicist’s hermeneutic, according to Daniel 2.

 

[Truth7t7]

The first-century Jews don’t fit the prophecy in any substantive study, and neither do the Jews in our time; only apostate, liberal Protestantism fits the prophecy of the Mystery of Babylon, and from a Historicist’s hermeneutic, according to Daniel 2.

Your claim in bold red above is "False"

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

(Revelation) 18:19 AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Your claim in bold red above is "False"

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

(Revelation) 18:19 AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Truth7t7]

Care to elaborate?

No need to elaborate, my post is self explanatory with no need for further explanation

If you have a question or argument post it

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Jerry Huerta]

No need to elaborate, my post is self explanatory with no need for further explanation

If you have a question or argument post it

Jesus Is The Lord

Argue against what? You didn't say anything. If you have an argument or question about my post, I'm waiting. It's my thread, not yours.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Your claim in bold red above is "False"

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

(Revelation) 18:19 AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

This doesn't address the exegesis or the historical accounts.

Revelation reveals the merchant of the earth are made rich from the power of Babylon’s luxurious living,

Revelation 18:
3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living." ESV

The Romans made the merchants rich during John’s time, not the Jews, which exposes the folly of preterism and futurism. The Jews couldn’t even sit down and eat with the Gentiles, so how could they have committed fornication with the kings of the earth and enriched the merchants before 70 AD? Furthermore, history affirms the Romans invented the “law merchant” to maintain economic hegemony in their empire, which collapsed at the end of their empire, ending the political status of the merchants in the kingdoms that supplanted Rome. With the rise of the papacy, the merchants were relegated to an inferior position in society and kept there until the rise of Protestantism. It was the Protestants that held intercourse with the kings of the earth and established secular societies in the world in which the merchants were enriched, in fulfillment of the prophecy that there would be a great falling away before the Day of the LORD,

2 Thessalonians 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. KJV

Furthermore, the Romans were pagans and couldn’t fall from moral rectitude; that’s a covenantal issue, which is only applicable to the covenantal people of God. The first-century Jews don’t fit the prophecy in any substantive study, and neither do the Jews in our time; only apostate, liberal Protestantism fits the prophecy of the Mystery of Babylon, and from a Historicist’s hermeneutic, according to Daniel 2.

 

[APAK]

@Jerry Huerta ..

(Dan 2:40) The fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron, because iron breaks in pieces and subdues all things; and as iron that crushes all these, shall it break in pieces and crush.

(Dan 2:41) Then you saw the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, that shall be a divided kingdom; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, because you saw the iron mixed with miry clay.

(Dan 2:42) As the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

(Dan 2:43) Whereas you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they shall not cling to one another, even as iron does not mingle with clay.

(Dan 2:44) In the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people; it shall crush to powder and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

(Dan 2:45) As you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God has made known to the king what shall happen hereafter: and the dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.


The base or feet of the iron 2-legged kingdom - 4th Beast, is the Roman Empire. This 'last' kingdom eventually stood and fell (began its decline) based on 10 kings and their given resources in terms of manpower and weaponry, of the last of the Caesar dynasties and rulers of Rome until Christ establishes his Kingdom in heaven and on the earth.

This was all completed by 70 AD.

The kings or Caesars during that time were a mixture of weak and strong leaders with more and more conscripts for war and unwilling forces of slaves.

And these ten leaders of the Roman Kingdom were:

The red beast of the Roman empire had 7 heads and 10 horns. These heads of the beast represent the 10 emperors or Caesars since Julius. The 7 heads are also the 7 hills where Roman is seated.

1 – Julius – 44 BC (the 1st head of the red Beast)

2- Augustus – 27 BC

3 – Tiberius – 14 AD

4 – Caligula – 37 AD

5 – Claudius – 41 AD

6 – Nero – 54 AD

7 – Galba – 68 AD

8 – Otho – 68 AD

9 – Vitellius – 68 AD

10 – Vespasian – 69 AD

11 – Titus – 79 AD

12 – Domitian – 81 AD to 96 AD


The 1st 6 Emperors are of the Caesar Dynasty.

In Rev 13:3, the 6th Emperor or one of the heads of the red beast had a fatal wound and caused the Beast to become dead in the process. Nero commits suicide and there was no designated hand-off ruler, so chaos ensued. The next 3 Emperors (7th 8th and 9th) came to power in the midst of this civil war in Rome and the Beast Kingdom was now fighting for its life. Each of them only lasted in power for months as temporary rulers.

The mortal wound caused by Nero that affected the life of the Beast was healed with the 10th Caesar, Vespasian. Rome as the red Beast was revived to life.

Out of Nero’s deadhead, emerged two new 2 heads in his place, of the Flavian Dynasty – Vespasian and Titus his son. See Rev 13.....

Again, Iron is a strong material used extensively in the Roman armies. The Roman Empire after the fall of its Republic was a military conqueror first. Then eventually since Julius Caesar, as a byproduct of their conquests, they increasingly built their Empire of and with clay.

Iron and the clay intermingled represented the condition of the Roman Empire’s underpinning. Its footing or foundation of the Roman Empire was based on both strength and weakness of leadership of the 10 Roman Caesars and the fragility of human slave labor. On one hand it had invincible armies wearing and using modern technologies with commanders of strength and boldness. On the other hand it was reliant on slaves for the maintenance of their influence and widespread geographical power. It was a slave- based society composed of many cultures and ethnic groups, used in all capacities as tools for their industry and livelihood, used in both civilian and military life. At the height of the Roman Empire at the turn of the 2nd century there was estimates that between 30 – 40 percent of the people living in Rome were slaves and another 10-20 percent within their conquered territories.

When Christ ascended to heaven, he established the Kingdom of his Father and caused the feet of the image to break and fall to cause it to topple, and to become as chaff and be blown away; to disappear for good. The Kingdom that brought the gospel travelled far and wide and became a large mountain indeed, surpassing in power all the human kingdoms of the past.

The power of God established his new Kingdom in heaven and within his believers on the earth. This was the cause and reason of the Son of God, of his creation, ministry of sin repentance, his death and resurrection to new life.

The Kingdom initially spread out from Jerusalem and Judea and consumed all the nations of the then-known world by the end of 1st century, where all these four Kingdoms (Beasts) rules at one time.

Ever since this heavenly Kingdom was established in the generation between 30 - 70 AD, this last earthly 4th Kingdom of the Roman Empire began to slowly decrease in power and influence although it zenith was not until around 117 AD.

The Kingdom of God continued to spread upon the earth since that time and is immovable by anyone, regardless of the number of new converts in Christ, in each future generation.

--------------------------------------

 

[Jerry Huerta]

@Jerry Huerta ..

(Dan 2:40) The fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron, because iron breaks in pieces and subdues all things; and as iron that crushes all these, shall it break in pieces and crush.

(Dan 2:41) Then you saw the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, that shall be a divided kingdom; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, because you saw the iron mixed with miry clay.

(Dan 2:42) As the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

(Dan 2:43) Whereas you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they shall not cling to one another, even as iron does not mingle with clay.

(Dan 2:44) In the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people; it shall crush to powder and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

(Dan 2:45) As you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God has made known to the king what shall happen hereafter: and the dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.


The base or feet of the iron 2-legged kingdom - 4th Beast, is the Roman Empire. This 'last' kingdom eventually stood and fell (began its decline) based on 10 kings and their given resources in terms of manpower and weaponry, of the last of the Caesar dynasties and rulers of Rome until Christ establishes his Kingdom in heaven and on the earth.

This was all completed by 70 AD.

The kings or Caesars during that time were a mixture of weak and strong leaders with more and more conscripts for war and unwilling forces of slaves.

And these ten leaders of the Roman Kingdom were:

The red beast of the Roman empire had 7 heads and 10 horns. These heads of the beast represent the 10 emperors or Caesars since Julius. The 7 heads are also the 7 hills where Roman is seated.

1 – Julius – 44 BC (the 1st head of the red Beast)

2- Augustus – 27 BC

3 – Tiberius – 14 AD

4 – Caligula – 37 AD

5 – Claudius – 41 AD

6 – Nero – 54 AD

7 – Galba – 68 AD

8 – Otho – 68 AD

9 – Vitellius – 68 AD

10 – Vespasian – 69 AD

11 – Titus – 79 AD

12 – Domitian – 81 AD to 96 AD


The 1st 6 Emperors are of the Caesar Dynasty.

In Rev 13:3, the 6th Emperor or one of the heads of the red beast had a fatal wound and caused the Beast to become dead in the process. Nero commits suicide and there was no designated hand-off ruler, so chaos ensued. The next 3 Emperors (7th 8th and 9th) came to power in the midst of this civil war in Rome and the Beast Kingdom was now fighting for its life. Each of them only lasted in power for months as temporary rulers.

The mortal wound caused by Nero that affected the life of the Beast was healed with the 10th Caesar, Vespasian. Rome as the red Beast was revived to life.

Out of Nero’s deadhead, emerged two new 2 heads in his place, of the Flavian Dynasty – Vespasian and Titus his son. See Rev 13.....

Again, Iron is a strong material used extensively in the Roman armies. The Roman Empire after the fall of its Republic was a military conqueror first. Then eventually since Julius Caesar, as a byproduct of their conquests, they increasingly built their Empire of and with clay.

Iron and the clay intermingled represented the condition of the Roman Empire’s underpinning. Its footing or foundation of the Roman Empire was based on both strength and weakness of leadership of the 10 Roman Caesars and the fragility of human slave labor. On one hand it had invincible armies wearing and using modern technologies with commanders of strength and boldness. On the other hand it was reliant on slaves for the maintenance of their influence and widespread geographical power. It was a slave- based society composed of many cultures and ethnic groups, used in all capacities as tools for their industry and livelihood, used in both civilian and military life. At the height of the Roman Empire at the turn of the 2nd century there was estimates that between 30 – 40 percent of the people living in Rome were slaves and another 10-20 percent within their conquered territories.

When Christ ascended to heaven, he established the Kingdom of his Father and caused the feet of the image to break and fall to cause it to topple, and to become as chaff and be blown away; to disappear for good. The Kingdom that brought the gospel travelled far and wide and became a large mountain indeed, surpassing in power all the human kingdoms of the past.

The power of God established his new Kingdom in heaven and within his believers on the earth. This was the cause and reason of the Son of God, of his creation, ministry of sin repentance, his death and resurrection to new life.

The Kingdom initially spread out from Jerusalem and Judea and consumed all the nations of the then-known world by the end of 1st century, where all these four Kingdoms (Beasts) rules at one time.

Ever since this heavenly Kingdom was established in the generation between 30 - 70 AD, this last earthly 4th Kingdom of the Roman Empire began to slowly decrease in power and influence although it zenith was not until around 117 AD.

The Kingdom of God continued to spread upon the earth since that time and is immovable by anyone, regardless of the number of new converts in Christ, in each future generation.

--------------------------------------

Daniel 2:44 states "in the days of these kings." The strengths and weaknesses of the Roman Empire are hardly "kings" in any sense. The greatest exegesis that conforms to the historical accounts interprets the feet in the same way the horns are interpreted in chapter 7: the Germanic kings that supplanted the Roman Empire, in which some were strong, and some were weak, and they never embraced each other becoming unified.

Your preterists interpretation misrepresents the Olivet Discourse. The Olivet Discourse follows the same apocalyptic pattern that Daniel followed in the prophecy of the seventy weeks,

Daniel 9:
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Just as Daniel cloaked the distant event of Christ’s first advent in the imminence, within a generation, of “the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem,” Christ cloaked his distant return in the imminent event in which one stone wouldn’t be left upon another at the destruction of the Herod’s temple, which agrees with Daniel’s chapter 2, that in the days of the kings that supplant Rome, he will set up his kingdom.

Furthermore, Revelation reveals the merchant of the earth are made rich from the power of Babylon’s luxurious living,

Revelation 18:
3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living." ESV

The Romans made the merchants rich during John’s time, not the Jews, which exposes the folly of preterism and futurism. The Jews couldn’t even sit down and eat with the Gentiles, so how could they have committed fornication with the kings of the earth and enriched the merchants before 70 AD? Furthermore, history affirms the Romans invented the “law merchant” to maintain economic hegemony in their empire, which collapsed at the end of their empire, ending the political status of the merchants in the kingdoms that supplanted Rome. With the rise of the papacy, the merchants were relegated to an inferior position in society and kept there until the rise of Protestantism. It was liberal Protestantism that held intercourse with the kings of the earth and established secular societies in the world in which the merchants were enriched, in fulfillment of the prophecy that there would be a great falling away before the Day of the LORD,

2 Thessalonians 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. KJV

 

[covenantee]

in the days of the kings that supplant Rome, he will set up his kingdom.

In the days of Tiberius who ruled Rome, Christ set up His Kingdom.

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 8
1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

Luke 11
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luke 12
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

In the days of Tiberius who ruled Rome, Christ set up His Kingdom.

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 8
1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

Luke 11
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luke 12
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The scattering of Israel is “the kingdom of God,” that finds grace in the wilderness (Jeremiah 31:1-2; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7). All the OT passages are the sources of Christ's parables that foreshadowed by the harvest season. The scattering fulfills the promise that Abraham's seed bless the nations (Genesis 12:3). This is why the woman finds grace in the wilderness in Revelation 12. Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21 affirm the harvest in which the saints rule on earth in power and authority with Christ in “his” kingdom at his return, before he puts “down all rule and all authority and power” and the eternal state commences, according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

The Old Covenant ended when Christ presented himself as the first fruits before his Father (1 Corinthians 15:20), anointing the Most Holy, and commenced his mediation (Daniel 9:24); the Old Covenant didn’t end in 70 AD,

The Celebration of Firstfruits is a biblical festival rooted in the agricultural practices of ancient Israel, marking the beginning of the harvest season… The offering of the firstfruits is a demonstration of faith, trusting that God will bless the remainder of the harvest. 1​

The law foreshadowed the harvest season (Hebrews 10:1), which is illustrated in Christ’s parables of planting and harvesting in Matthew 13. The harvest or gathering of the wheat into God’s barn wasn’t ordained for the close of the Old Covenant but the close of Christ's mediation of the New Covenant at the end of this age. At the close of this age, Christ mediates over the Church, not the Old Covenant. Christ unveiled the harvest as the gathering all things that offend “the righteous” and cast them into the furnace, but the tares grew alongside the wheat until that time,

Mathew 13:
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The harvest in Matthew 13 corresponds with the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 13 is the same event, merely providing greater detail, just as 2 Peter gives us greater detail to what Christ states in the OD,

Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Christ likens “the coming of the Son of man” with the days of Noah, and so does Peter in his epistle to the “elect exiles of the dispersion” (ESV),

2 Peter 3:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

All things continue as they were from the beginning of creation until the coming of the Son of man. Those things that continue until Christ’s return would be the tares growing alongside the wheat, nation rising against nation, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, the saints being delivered up to be afflicted, killed, hated of all nation for Christ’s sake, betrayed, deceived by false prophets, iniquity abounding, love waxing cold and the “need” of the gospel to be preached to “all the world” before “the coming of the Son of man,”

Matthew 24:
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

All things considered, the Olivet Discourse follows the same apocalyptic pattern that Daniel followed in the prophecy of the seventy weeks,

Daniel 9:
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Just as Daniel cloaked the distant event of Christ’s first advent in the imminence, within a generation, of “the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem,” Christ cloaked his distant return in the imminent event in which one stone wouldn’t be left upon another at the destruction of the Herod’s temple, which agrees with Daniel’s chapter 2, that in the days of the kings that supplant Rome, he will set up his kingdom.

 

[covenantee]

The scattering of Israel is “the kingdom of God,” that finds grace in the wilderness (Jeremiah 31:1-2; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7). All the OT passages are the sources of Christ's parables that foreshadowed by the harvest season. The scattering fulfills the promise that Abraham's seed bless the nations (Genesis 12:3). This is why the woman finds grace in the wilderness in Revelation 12. Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21 affirm the harvest in which the saints rule on earth in power and authority with Christ in “his” kingdom at his return, before he puts “down all rule and all authority and power” and the eternal state commences, according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

The Old Covenant ended when Christ presented himself as the first fruits before his Father (1 Corinthians 15:20), anointing the Most Holy, and commenced his mediation (Daniel 9:24); the Old Covenant didn’t end in 70 AD,

The Celebration of Firstfruits is a biblical festival rooted in the agricultural practices of ancient Israel, marking the beginning of the harvest season… The offering of the firstfruits is a demonstration of faith, trusting that God will bless the remainder of the harvest. 1​

The law foreshadowed the harvest season (Hebrews 10:1), which is illustrated in Christ’s parables of planting and harvesting in Matthew 13. The harvest or gathering of the wheat into God’s barn wasn’t ordained for the close of the Old Covenant but the close of Christ's mediation of the New Covenant at the end of this age. At the close of this age, Christ mediates over the Church, not the Old Covenant. Christ unveiled the harvest as the gathering all things that offend “the righteous” and cast them into the furnace, but the tares grew alongside the wheat until that time,

Mathew 13:
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The harvest in Matthew 13 corresponds with the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 13 is the same event, merely providing greater detail, just as 2 Peter gives us greater detail to what Christ states in the OD,

Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Christ likens “the coming of the Son of man” with the days of Noah, and so does Peter in his epistle to the “elect exiles of the dispersion” (ESV),

2 Peter 3:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

All things continue as they were from the beginning of creation until the coming of the Son of man. Those things that continue until Christ’s return would be the tares growing alongside the wheat, nation rising against nation, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, the saints being delivered up to be afflicted, killed, hated of all nation for Christ’s sake, betrayed, deceived by false prophets, iniquity abounding, love waxing cold and the “need” of the gospel to be preached to “all the world” before “the coming of the Son of man,”

Matthew 24:
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

All things considered, the Olivet Discourse follows the same apocalyptic pattern that Daniel followed in the prophecy of the seventy weeks,

Daniel 9:
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Just as Daniel cloaked the distant event of Christ’s first advent in the imminence, within a generation, of “the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem,” Christ cloaked his distant return in the imminent event in which one stone wouldn’t be left upon another at the destruction of the Herod’s temple, which agrees with Daniel’s chapter 2, that in the days of the kings that supplant Rome, he will set up his kingdom.

Tiberius did not supplant Rome. He ruled Rome.

In the days of Tiberius who ruled Rome, Christ set up His Kingdom.

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 8
1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

Luke 11
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luke 12
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Tiberius did not supplant Rome. He ruled Rome.

In the days of Tiberius who ruled Rome, Christ set up His Kingdom.

Mark 1
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 8
1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

Luke 11
20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luke 12
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luke 17
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

As I stated, the Old and NT both agree the kingdom of God represents the scattering of Israel that finds grace in the wilderness (Jeremiah 31:1-2; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7). All the OT passages are the sources of Christ's parables that foreshadowed by the harvest season. The scattering fulfills the promise that Abraham's seed bless the nations (Genesis 12:3). This is why the woman finds grace in the wilderness in Revelation 12. Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21 affirm the harvest in which the saints rule on earth in power and authority with Christ in “his” kingdom at his return, before he puts “down all rule and all authority and power” and the eternal state commences, according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

Why repeat your passages when I already addressed your misrepresentation of them?

 

[covenantee]

As I stated, the Old and NT both agree the kingdom of God represents the scattering of Israel that finds grace in the wilderness (Jeremiah 31:1-2; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7). All the OT passages are the sources of Christ's parables that foreshadowed by the harvest season. The scattering fulfills the promise that Abraham's seed bless the nations (Genesis 12:3). This is why the woman finds grace in the wilderness in Revelation 12. Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21 affirm the harvest in which the saints rule on earth in power and authority with Christ in “his” kingdom at his return, before he puts “down all rule and all authority and power” and the eternal state commences, according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

Why repeat your passages when I already addressed your misrepresentation of them?

Don't you think that truth bears repetition?

Since I exclusively cited Scripture, do you think that Scripture misrepresents Scripture?

If you have Scripture disproving what I've cited, then please cite yours.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

Don't you think that truth bears repetition?

Since I exclusively cited Scripture, do you think that Scripture misrepresents Scripture?

If you have Scripture disproving what I've cited, then please cite yours.

The scriptures affirm Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 13:7), which is the kingdom of God. Christ returns to gather the sheep into his kingdom in Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, at the harvest in which the saints rule on earth in power and authority with Christ in “his” kingdom. The evidence vindicates we don't enter the eternal state when Christ returns.

It obvious you didn't read Jeremiah 31:1-2; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7 that vindicate Christ came to scatter the sheep, which is the kingdom of God, any more than you read Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21, which vindicates the harvest in which the saints rule on earth in power and authority with Christ in “his” kingdom before we enter the eternal state.

I'm familiar with all of your citations about the kingdom of God only to see you misrepresent them in the preterist fashion.

 

[covenantee]

The scriptures affirm Christ came to punish the shepherds and scatter the sheep (Zechariah 13:7), which is the kingdom of God.

You affirm such. The Scriptures do not.

Jesus quoted Zechariah 13:7 the night of His betrayal (Matthew 26:31; Mark 14:27). He was referring to Himself (the Shepherd), and His disciples (the sheep), who would desert Him on that occasion.

No mention of the Kingdom of God there except in your imagination.

 

[covenantee]

I'm familiar with all of your citations about the kingdom of God only to see you misrepresent them in the preterist fashion.

So then dazzle us with your unmisrepresented versions in your nonpreterist fashion.

And leave what you can't understand for those who can.

 

[Jerry Huerta]

So then dazzle us with your unmisrepresented versions in your nonpreterist fashion.

And leave what you can't understand for those who can.

You affirm such. The Scriptures do not.

Jesus quoted Zechariah 13:7 the night of His betrayal (Matthew 26:31; Mark 14:27). He was referring to Himself (the Shepherd), and His disciples (the sheep), who would desert Him on that occasion.

No mention of the Kingdom of God there except in your imagination.

Reading Zechariah 13:7 by itself doesn't affirm Christ came to scatter the sheep or sow them in the world. One has to grasp the other passages I cited in order to exegete further on Zechariah 13:7 (Jeremiah 31:1-2, 27-38; Ezekiel 34:25-31; Hosea 2:14-23; Zechariah 10:7-9, 13:7). Preterists have no grasp of the OT or the New for that matter.

Again, the Old and NT both agree the kingdom of God represents the scattering of Israel that finds grace in the wilderness. All the OT passages are the sources of Christ's parables that foreshadowed the harvest season. The scattering fulfills the promise that Abraham's seed bless the nations (Genesis 12:3). This is why the woman finds grace in the wilderness in Revelation 12. Matthew 19:28, 24:46-47; Luke 12:35-44, 19:11-27; John 14:2-3; and Revelation 2:25-26, 3:21 affirm the harvest in which the saints rule on earth in power and authority with Christ in “his” kingdom at his return, before he puts “down all rule and all authority and power” and the eternal state commences, according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

If you don't engage the scriptures that support my doctrine, I have to choose to continue to put them before your face.

 

[covenantee]

Reading Zechariah 13:7 by itself doesn't affirm Christ came to scatter the sheep or sow them in the world.

Obviously you don't comprehend what "Jesus quoted" means.

So just leave it for those who do.

 

[covenantee]

If you don't engage the scriptures that support my doctrine

"My doctrine".

Trademark of a cult.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The same arguments between preterists and futurists over the correct interpretation of Babylon have been going on since the Jesuits conceived the eschatologies.

Both preterists and futurists are wrong about Babylon, but so are historicists. The idealist view gets forgotten and overlooked, but it is the correct one. Babylon does not represent any particular earthly entity, but rather represents the spiritual opposite of the heavenly new Jerusalem. It is the mother of harlots, of which the Papacy and RCC is only one. Your view of Babylon is too narrow. Its scope is well beyond just the Papacy and RCC. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Secular Humanists, etc. are all citizens of Babylon and none of those have anything to do with the Papacy and RCC. Babylon is the mother of all harlots, including the Papacy, while the heavenly Jerusalem is the mother of all believers (Galatians 4:26).

Let me indulge in a critique of these eschatologies from an older view, the historicists’ view. Historicism rose with Protestantism; Martin Luther interpreted Daniel’s Little Horn as the papacy that rose amongst the Germanic kingdoms that supplanted Rome at its demise.

Luther is not a trustworthy source for doctrine. He believed in total depravity and had some other views similar to John Calvin's false beliefs in relation to salvation, also.

To take the heat off the papacy, two Jesuit priests, Francisco Ribera (1537- 1591) and Luis de Alcazar (1554-c. 1613), concocted futurism and preterism. It’s Alcazar’s invention, preterism, that will be the focus of the thread. Still, futurism is guilty of many of the same misconceptions. This work will expose some of the misconceptions of preterism before it draws conclusions about the identity of Babylon.

To begin, the notion that God sets “up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed” and that “shall not be left to other people” at Christ’s first advent is untenable in light of Daniel’s prophecies,

Daniel 2:
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces…
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Daniel tells us Christ establishes his kingdom in the days of the feet or the ten toes of the image, or kings/horns, also conveyed in Daniel 7 and Revelation 17, which wasn’t at Christ’s first advent;

Wrong. Of all the things you can criticize preterism about, this is not one of them. Do you not believe that you are in Christ's kingdom now? The kingdom that He said does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Do you not believe that you have been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Father's dear Son Jesus Christ? Do you think Paul didn't know what he was talking about here?

Furthermore, the notion that Christ’s mediation has a separate judgment for the Jews is untenable. Christ‘s mediation commenced upon his fulfilling the antitype of the first fruits. The Old Covenant ended when Christ presented himself as the first fruits before his Father (1 Corinthians 15:20), anointing the Most Holy, and commenced his mediation (Daniel 9:24); the Old Covenant didn’t end in 70 AD,

Agree.

The Celebration of Firstfruits is a biblical festival rooted in the agricultural practices of ancient Israel, marking the beginning of the harvest season… The offering of the firstfruits is a demonstration of faith, trusting that God will bless the remainder of the harvest. 1​

The law foreshadowed the harvest season (Hebrews 10:1), which is illustrated in Christ’s parables of planting and harvesting in Matthew 13. The harvest or gathering of the wheat into God’s barn wasn’t ordained for the close of the Old Covenant but the close of Christ's mediation of the New Covenant at the end of this age. At the close of this age, Christ mediates over the Church, not the Old Covenant. Christ unveiled the harvest, gathering all things that offend “the righteous” and cast them into the furnace, but the tares grew alongside the wheat until that time,

Mathew 13:
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
The harvest in Matthew 13 corresponds with the gathering of the elect in the Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 13 is the same event, merely providing greater detail, just as 2 Peter gives us greater detail to what Christ states in the OD,

Notice at that point it says "the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". Why is it called "the kingdom of their Father"? Because Jesus will have delivered the kingdom He rules over now to the Father at that point.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.