Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[Spiritual Israelite]

Keraz, there are 3 elements to the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18.

1. the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. the changing of the living in Christ.
3. to forever be with the Lord, where-ever He is.


Matthew 24:31 lacks the resurrection of the dead in Christ. So the gathering of the elect in that verse is not part of the rapture/resurrection event.

Do you believe that the coming of Christ referenced in Matthew 24:30-31 is the same coming of Christ referenced in Revelation 19:11-21?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I totally disagree. There is no indication whatsoever that any mortal could survive what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. In 2 Peter 3:6-7, Peter compares the event directly to the flood. How may unbelievers survived the flood? None. That's how it will be at Christ's second coming as well, as Jesus Himself taught in Matthew 24:35-39 and Luke 17:26-30. No unbelievers will survive while all believers will put on immortality when their bodies are changed from natural, mortal bodies to spiritual, immortal bodies.

Only the army of the ac is killed.
Local holy land event.
Rev 19.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do you believe that the coming of Christ referenced in Matthew 24:30-31 is the same coming of Christ referenced in Revelation 19:11-21?

2nd Coming after the 7 yr trib is Rev 19 the white horses.
No rapture verse fits it.
But yes Matt 24 30 is the 2nd Coming.
No brainer

 

[rebuilder 454]

That statement of course is FALSE. In Matthew 24:31 Jesus was pointing to the SAME IDEA that Apostle Paul covered about the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 verses...

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

What does that gathering by Jesus of the saints "from one end of heaven to the other" mean? That's about the "asleep" saints being resurrected and then gathered FROM HEAVEN by Lord Jesus and He brings with Him FROM HEAVEN when He comes! EASY!

What's that 1 Thess.4:14 "even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him"? That's the SAME IDEA Jesus taught in that Matt.24:31 verse about the asleep saints who had already died being gathered by Him, FROM HEAVEN!

Now for those actually CARE about true study in God's Word, if you take a look at what Lord Jesus said in Mark 13:27 with the last phrase about WHERE He gathers the saints from, you will notice it says they are gathered FROM THE EARTH! Did Apostle Paul cover that in 1 Thess.4? YEAH! He did! That is about those of us still alive when Jesus comes, being "caught up" to Him FROM THE EARTH!

This means Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 was REPEATING WHAT JESUS TAUGHT IN HIS OLIVET DISCOURSE about His future gathering of His Church!

Every one of those verses fit the pretrib rapture like a glove.
Ahem..unless to inject additives like some resurrection and a non existent uturn of that resurrection that is not there either in.matt 24;31

 

[rebuilder 454]

The post trip rapture ,is actually correctly called "the revamp of the Bible".
We can't have acts 1 say what it says.
We can't have Matthew 24:30 Say what it says
we can't have Matthew. 25 VS 1 through 14 say what they say.
We cannot have revelation 14 verse 14 say what it says.
We cannot have Romans, 9, 10 and 11 enter the picture.
******All that needs to be omitted.******
Lot and noah have to be changed to some grand canyon leap of a postrib deliverance

About all we have left standing is first thes 4, but not really, because that needs to be changed also to fit all the others scriptures that have been changed

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Only the army of the ac is killed.
Local holy land event.
Rev 19.

You should read Revelation 19 again more carefully.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

It seems that you somehow overlooked the part I highlighted in red there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The post trip rapture ,is actually correctly called "the revamp of the Bible".
We can't have acts 1 say what it says.
We can't have Matthew 24:30 Say what it says
we can't have Matthew. 25 VS 1 through 14 say what they say.
We cannot have revelation 14 verse 14 say what it says.
We cannot have Romans, 9, 10 and 11 enter the picture.
******All that needs to be omitted.******
Lot and noah have to be changed to some grand canyon leap of a postrib deliverance

About all we have left standing is first thes 4, but not really, because that needs to be changed also to fit all the others scriptures that have been changed

This is totally incoherent gibberish. You make all these claims without any explanation for them. What is your basis for all these claims? What do you mean "We can't have acts 1 say what it says"? What do you mean "We can't have Matthew 24:30 say what it says"? How can we have any idea of what you're talking about here?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2nd Coming after the 7 yr trib is Rev 19 the white horses.
No rapture verse fits it.

Why do you say that no rapture verse fits it? All rapture verses fit it because the rapture occurs at the second coming of Christ and Revelation 19:11-21 is obviously about the second coming of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

But yes Matt 24 30 is the 2nd Coming.
No brainer

So is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. No brainer.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You should read Revelation 19 again more carefully.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

It seems that you somehow overlooked the part I highlighted in red there.

Rev 19
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Ahem.
The battle is against an army in a limited location.
You are CHANGING the setting ( postribber methods) to fit what you need it to say.
Remnant of the army of nations AT THAT BATTLE.
Maybe read Rev 19 in context more carefully?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 19
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Ahem.
The battle is against an army in a limited location.

No, it isn't. You are missing the symbolism of Armageddon and you are just ignoring that John expanded the ones who will be killed beyond just the armies to include "all people, free and slave, great and small." (Rev 19:18). Can you explain why you are ignoring that?

You are CHANGING the setting ( postribber methods) to fit what you need it to say.

No, you are failing to recognize the genre of text that is used in the book of Revelation, so you miss a lot of the symbolism. The reference to Armageddon isn't referring to a literal place on earth called Armageddon any more than the reference to Babylon is referring to the literal place on earth called Babylon. You are failing to recognize that, so you end up interpreting Revelation in a way that contradicts other scripture.

Remnant of the army of nations AT THAT BATTLE.
Maybe read Rev 19 in context more carefully?

That's what you need to do. And you need to stop interpreting it in a way that contradicts other scripture. Don't try to change the rest of scripture to fit your interpretation of the highly symbolic book of Revelation. Use clear, straightforward scriptures to help you interpret the book of Revelation. You have the wrong approach to interpreting the book.

 

[Davy]

Every one of those verses fit the pretrib rapture like a glove.
Ahem..unless to inject additives like some resurrection and a non existent uturn of that resurrection that is not there either in.matt 24;31

No they don't, only one who is deceived by men's doctrines can't grasp that Apostle Paul got the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 witness from Lord Jesus.

The Matthew 24:31 gathering 'from one end of heaven to the other' aligns with 1 Thess.4:13-16 about Jesus bringing the 'asleep' saints 'from heaven' with Him when He comes.

The Mark 13:27 version gathering 'from the earth' aligns with 1 Thess.4:17 about the saints still alive being "caught up" from the earth, to Jesus, when He comes.

Easy, Peasy!

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, it isn't. You are missing the symbolism of Armageddon and you are just ignoring that John expanded the ones who will be killed beyond just the armies to include "all people, free and slave, great and small." (Rev 19:18). Can you explain why you are ignoring that?


No, you are failing to recognize the genre of text that is used in the book of Revelation, so you miss a lot of the symbolism. The reference to Armageddon isn't referring to a literal place on earth called Armageddon any more than the reference to Babylon is referring to the literal place on earth called Babylon. You are failing to recognize that, so you end up interpreting Revelation in a way that contradicts other scripture.


That's what you need to do. And you need to stop interpreting it in a way that contradicts other scripture. Don't try to change the rest of scripture to fit your interpretation of the highly symbolic book of Revelation. Use clear, straightforward scriptures to help you interpret the book of Revelation. You have the wrong approach to interpreting the book.

You could not present your case.
Your reply is "i have no supporting evidence , however, I just have a feeling about this, therefore I justify inserting additives into verses"

 

[rebuilder 454]

No they don't, only one who is deceived by men's doctrines can't grasp that Apostle Paul got the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 witness from Lord Jesus.

The Matthew 24:31 gathering 'from one end of heaven to the other' aligns with 1 Thess.4:13-16 about Jesus bringing the 'asleep' saints 'from heaven' with Him when He comes.

The Mark 13:27 version gathering 'from the earth' aligns with 1 Thess.4:17 about the saints still alive being "caught up" from the earth, to Jesus, when He comes.

Easy, Peasy!

Nope
It says " from the outermost part of earth"

The "outermost part" is the atmosphere.

But if I play "devils advocate" and give you a point ( for your impossible deal) and say " oh wow they actually DO have a verse"... it would be "2 verses indicating a gathering in heaven" vs your 1 supposed verse that after the trib, we do see a supposed postrib main rapture of 1 thes 4.( complete with an added "dead in Christ resurrection")

So what is your method?
Of course you omit the 2 locations of a heaven gathering ( a fact you change) and favor an obscure, gathering BY ANGELS.... NOT JESUS from earth, attempting to insert a rapture....with a bonus resurrection added to boot. All made up out of a bad starting place.
Please listed to advice .
Stop interpreting Scripture through a postrib rapture prism.
It is a slam dunk against you.
A babe in Christ with a Bible can easily see the clear words of Jesus.

Wow.
You guaranteed yourself failure.
Snatched defeat right out of the bible jaws of victory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You could not present your case.
Your reply is "i have no supporting evidence , however, I just have a feeling about this, therefore I justify inserting additives into verses"

You are the last person who should be trying to tell someone else that they could not present their case. The next coherent argument you make that clearly explains your beliefs will be the first one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope
It says " from the outermost part of earth"

The "outermost part" is the atmosphere.

LOL. How exactly will the elect be gathered from the atmosphere?

You are willing to do anything to make scripture say what you want it to say. It clearly indicates that the elect will be gathered from both earth and heaven. The elect gathered from heaven will be the souls of the dead in Christ while the ones gathered from earth will be the bodies of the resurrected dead in Christ together with those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are the last person who should be trying to tell someone else that they could not present their case. The next coherent argument you make that clearly explains your beliefs will be the first one.

Uh huh.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL. How exactly will the elect be gathered from the atmosphere?

You are willing to do anything to make scripture say what you want it to say. It clearly indicates that the elect will be gathered from both earth and heaven. The elect gathered from heaven will be the souls of the dead in Christ while the ones gathered from earth will be the bodies of the resurrected dead in Christ together with those who are alive and remain until the second coming of Christ.

Lol.
That is EXACTLY where postribbers park.

2 references to heaven.
That automatically gets recorded in your mind as " nope not from heaven"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol.
That is EXACTLY where postribbers park.

2 references to heaven.
That automatically gets recorded in your mind as " nope not from heaven"

So, all you can do is lie? You have nothing else to offer? Where did I say that the elect are not gathered from heaven? Nowhere. Stop lying. My point is that they are gathered BOTH from heaven, which are the souls of the dead in Christ, AND from earth, which are the resurrected dead in Christ (reuniting with their souls) and those who are alive and remain. Is this too hard for you to understand? I wouldn't think so. So, you have no excuse for misrepresenting my view the way you do.

You are the one who denies that the elect are gathered from earth even though it specifically says that in Mark 13:27. Why are you so dishonest with scripture? You'd rather make it say what you want it to say than accept what it actually says. I'll never understand why people do that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Uh huh.

Glad you agree. You know what I said is true, which is why this is all you could say in response.

 

[Davy]

Nope
It says " from the outermost part of earth"

The "outermost part" is the atmosphere.

No, the KJV Scripture says "uttermost". It means 'from the ends of the earth'. Otherwise, why would you believe in a rapture, since it is about the gathering of the saints still alive living... ON THE EARTH?

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Mark 13:26-27
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
NKJV

Mark 13:27
27 And then He will send out the angels, and will get together His saints from the four winds, from the farthest part of the earth to the farthest part of heaven.
BBE

Mark 13:27
27 and then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from end of earth to end of heaven.
Darby

Mark 13:26-27
27 And then He will send out the angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
ESV

Mark 13:27
27 And then He will send out the angels, and will gather the elect together from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.
(from The Lexham English Bible, Fourth Edition <NL><NL>Copyright © 2010, 2012 Logos Bible Software.)

Mark 13:27
27 Then He will send out His angels, and will gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the sky.
NHEB

Mark 13:26-27
27 And He will send out His angels to gather His chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

Mark 13:27
27 Then He will send out His angels, and will gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the sky.
WEB

Mark 13:27
27 and then He shall send His messengers, and gather together His chosen from the four winds, from the end of the earth unto the end of heaven.
YLT

If you cannot figure this out, then how can you understand the deeper matters written in God's Word?