Schemes...

[Douggg]

The FP doesn't make the image.

Rev doesn't say satan indwells this "statue".

The verse in Ezekiel says nothing about a statue but speaks about a Cherub. It is not about the image of the beast. You are using eisegesis to force the image of the beast into the passage so you can say it gets burned at the second coming which is not found anywhere in the bible. It's being made up by you, or someone who you got it from.

The false prophet has the people of the world make the image. What that specifically entails is not said. Back in the Exodus, the people contributed their gold jewelry and such that was melted down, and Aaron made the golden calf image. Exodus 32:24.

So it may be that the false prophet will have the people of the world submit their gold to overlay the image of the beast-king.

Satan himself will not be turned to ashes, but retains his form because the angel binds him with a chain and casts him into the bottomless pit.

------------------------------------------
Revelation 16:13
out of the mouth of the beast (king)
out of the mouth of the false prophet
out of the mouth of the dragon (which will be by Satan indwelling the living, speaking statue image of the beast)

 

[Scott Downey]

The false prophet has the people of the world make the image. What that specifically entails is not said. Back in the Exodus, the people contributed their gold jewelry and such that was melted down, and Aaron made the golden calf image. Exodus 32:24.

So it may be that the false prophet will have the people of the world submit their gold to overlay the image of the beast-king.

Satan himself will not be turned to ashes, but retains his form because the angel binds him with a chain and casts him into the bottomless pit.

------------------------------------------
Revelation 16:13
out of the mouth of the beast (king)
out of the mouth of the false prophet
out of the mouth of the dragon (which will be by Satan indwelling the living, speaking statue image of the beast)

I think the image is a technology, computerized AI type of thing. Obviously, we are moving into an era of suer high tech artificial intelligence in the future. It will appear to have life, but it will a lying wonder. God made man in His image, and men are going to make AI and robotics into our image.

 

[Scott Downey]

If the 1000 year reign on Earth of Christ and His saints really happens, it is ultimately ineffective and doomed to failure.
Because after Satan is released from the pit, he easily deceives the unsaved nations and surrounds the little, tiny fragment left of the kingdom of Christ on earth, of which the only remnants are the 'beloved city'

Personally I can't accept that Christ's reign on earth is a fail, and God has to send down fire to save Christ and the 'beloved city'
Can you?

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The alternative, which makes sense, is the fire coming down from God is the return of Christ in flaming fire to destroy the world. And all the angels and saints are with Him. At his return the church receives its rest from tribulation caused by the unsaved and the devil that occurs at the end of the age of the last days of the world.

2 Thess 1

4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure,

5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Keraz, the rapture is not Matthew 24:31 because the rapture is preceded by a resurrection of them in Christ according to 1Thessalonians4:16-18.

Why do you keep trying to make this weak argument? That one passage doesn't contain all the same details as another passage is not evidence that the two passages are not about the same event. Why can't you understand such a simple concept?

Do you believe Matthew 24:30-31 is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21 (happens at the same time)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If the 1000 year reign on Earth of Christ and His saints really happens, it is ultimately ineffective and doomed to failure.
Because after Satan is released from the pit, he easily deceives the unsaved nations and surrounds the little, tiny fragment left of the kingdom of Christ on earth, of which the only remnants are the 'beloved city'

Personally I can't accept that Christ's reign on earth is a fail, and God has to send down fire to save Christ and the 'beloved city'
Can you?

I can't, either. It makes no sense to think that Jesus would reign on the earth for a thousand years in all His glory only to have a number of people "as the sand of the sea" rebel against Him at the end of that time. Like you pointed out, that would make His reign a failure. How can anyone accept such a thing? Do people think that Satan is really that powerful that he could change the minds of people in a short time after they had experienced the greatness and glory of Christ's kingdom for a thousand years? It's not even reasonable to think that could happen.

 

[Scott Downey]

I can't, either. It makes no sense to think that Jesus would reign on the earth for a thousand years in all His glory only to have a number of people "as the sand of the sea" rebel against Him at the end of that time. Like you pointed out, that would make His reign a failure. How can anyone accept such a thing? Do people think that Satan is really that powerful that he could change the minds of people in a short time after they had experienced the greatness and glory of Christ's kingdom for a thousand years? It's not even reasonable to think that could happen.

It's really bad doctrine for sure.

Christ triumphs over principalities and powers, He does not get beaten by them

 

[Scott Downey]

Why do you keep trying to make this weak argument? That one passage doesn't contain all the same details as another passage is not evidence that the two passages are not about the same event. Why can't you understand such a simple concept?

Do you believe Matthew 24:30-31 is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21 (happens at the same time)?

Mark 13 is clear as a bell about the rapture
Christ gathers all things in Heaven and all things on earth who are in Him at His returning.

"And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."
Reality at this time is warping, things are falling apart, on earth and heaven refer to Rev 6 sixth seal


23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.


Rev 6

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances​

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [g]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky [i]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

His wrath is arriving on His returning, and they are going to feel it hard.
And none who are doomed to destruction will escape.

 

[Douggg]

Why do you keep trying to make this weak argument? That one passage doesn't contain all the same details as another passage is not evidence that the two passages are not about the same event. Why can't you understand such a simple concept?

Do you believe Matthew 24:30-31 is the same event as Revelation 19:11-21 (happens at the same time)?

Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21, both take place at Jesus's return.

There are 3 elements to the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18.

1. the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. the changing of the living in Christ.
3. to forever be with the Lord, where-ever He is.

Matthew 24:31 lacks the resurrection of the dead in Christ. So the gathering of the elect in that verse is not part of the rapture/resurrection event.

Since in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, it says Christians are not appointed to God's wrath to be poured out. Then the rapture/resurrection has to happen before the great tribulation begins. And where is Christ when the great tribulation begins ? In heaven.

So the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18 takes place before the great tribulation begins, and Christians are taken to to heaven to be with Christ, while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

 

[Douggg]

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering of the elect in that verse is referring to gathering the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel. It will be the fulfillment of a promise God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

Take note of the wording used in verse 4.

Deuteronomy 30:
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21, both take place at Jesus's return.

There are 3 elements to the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18.

1. the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. the changing of the living in Christ.
3. to forever be with the Lord, where-ever He is.

Matthew 24:31 lacks the resurrection of the dead in Christ. So the gathering of the elect in that verse is not part of the rapture/resurrection event.

Since in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, it says Christians are not appointed to God's wrath to be poured out. Then the rapture/resurrection has to happen before the great tribulation begins. And where is Christ when the great tribulation begins ? In heaven.

So the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18 takes place before the great tribulation begins, and Christians are taken to to heaven to be with Christ, while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

So you don't believe Christ when He says the resurrection is on the last day.
To me the Last Day is the last day of this world, otherwise why call it that as it would not be the last day then.

And why are people hung up on this great tribulation issue and God's people?
Who suffers from the great tribulation? Well saved and unsaved do suffer, but it is not coming from God on His people, it comes from Satan and who it does say goes off to make war against?

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Rev 12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

The gathering of the elect in that verse is referring to gathering the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel. It will be the fulfillment of a promise God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

Take note of the wording used in verse 4.

Deuteronomy 30:
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

That is out of context, as clearly Mark 13 is about the end and the Last Day when He returns when every eye shall see him coming in the clouds with great power and glory. His elect are His believers, Christians. Christ returns immediately at the end of the great tribulation.

But your saying this has already happened! You a full preterist.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21, both take place at Jesus's return.

But, Revelation 19:11-21 makes no mention of the angels gathering the elect, so if we use the same kind of logic that you use to conclude that 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:30-31 are not the same event, we would have to conclude that Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are not referring to the same event (Jesus's return), either.

So, can you see how flawed your argument is that you make when you claim that 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:30-31 are not the same event? Using that same type of argument would mean that even Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are not referring to the same event even though we both agree that they do.

There are 3 elements to the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:16-18.

1. the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
2. the changing of the living in Christ.
3. to forever be with the Lord, where-ever He is.

Matthew 24:31 lacks the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

LOL. You are just not getting it, Doug. This is not a valid argument. Revelation 19:11-21 lacks a reference to the gathering of the elect. So, does that mean Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are not related? Of course not, right? So, stop trying to use this type of argument.

So the gathering of the elect in that verse is not part of the rapture/resurrection event.

Since in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, it says Christians are not appointed to God's wrath to be poured out.

Yes, and would you agree that Paul was referring to this wrath that he had mentioned a little bit before that where he described it as "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape"?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[ewq1938]

So it may be that the false prophet will have the people of the world submit their gold to overlay the image of the beast-king.

Maybe they cover it with diamonds? The bible says nothing like any of this though.

Satan himself will not be turned to ashes, but retains his form because the angel binds him with a chain and casts him into the bottomless pit.

It says the devil will be destroyed, and Rev says he is cast into a lake of fire so he will be turned to ashes.

Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[Douggg]

That is out of context, as clearly Mark 13 is about the end and the Last Day when He returns when every eye shall see him coming in the clouds with great power and glory. His elect are His believers, Christians. Christ returns immediately at the end of the great tribulation.

But your saying this has already happened! You a full preterist.

No, I did not say the gathering of the elect ( the fulfilling of Deuteronomy 30:1-6) has happened yet. It will not be fulfilled until Jesus returns. Obviously, there are still Jews scattered around the world in many nations.

The Jews themselves are still waiting for the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 30:1-6, which that gathering they call "the final redemption".

 

[Douggg]

t says the devil will be destroyed, and Rev says he is cast into a lake of fire so he will be turned to ashes.

Satan will be cast into the lake of fire after the final rebellion after the one thousand years are over.

Ezekiel 28:16-19, speaks about him being exposed to the kings of the earth. Verse 18 is about Satan being turned to ashes - which it is referring to the statue image he will be indwelling. And thus being exposed to the kings of the earth, who will be with their armies in Jerusalem that day.

Then in verse 19, it says he will be a terror (referring to when Satan is cast down to earth as the third woe, having great wrath), but that he will be a terror no more - referring to Satan being cast into the bottomless pit.

Ezekiel 28:
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Douggg]

So you don't believe Christ when He says the resurrection is on the last day.
To me the Last Day is the last day of this world, otherwise why call it that as it would not be the last day then.

That particular resurrection is for the Great White Throne judgment. Revelation 20:13.

 

[ewq1938]

Satan will be cast into the lake of fire after the final rebellion after the one thousand years are over.

Ezekiel 28:16-19, speaks about him being exposed to the kings of the earth. Verse 18 is about Satan being turned to ashes - which it is referring to the statue image he will be indwelling.

The bible never says satan indwells within the image of the beast nor does Ezekiel say anything about a statue being burned to ashes. This is eisegesis in it's purest form.

 

[Scott Downey]

That particular resurrection is for the Great White Throne judgment. Revelation 20:13.

John 5
note v28 the resurrection is of the just and unjust all at the same time, at a certain hour.

Life and Judgment Are Through the Son​

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

 

[Scott Downey]

The 'First Resurrection' of Rev 20, is Christ's resurrection not their own separate resurrection, which occurs when Christ returns

Christ, the first fruits of Christ, we are the first fruits, so we are of His resurrection, who raised us up together with HIM to be seated with Him in heavenly places. Ephesians 2


James actually states it.

,
James 1:18
Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power

v23, the first fruits, those reigning with Him now as kings and priests unto God, in Heaven 'the millennial reign', with us not yet glorified or resurrected. We go to be with Him at our physical deaths.

afterwards those who Christ's at His coming, our bodily resurrection

Rev 1
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who [a]loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us [b]kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

[Brakelite]

Ido not wish to sound like I'm being arrogant and conceited... far from it. Just grateful. Oused to believe as you guys. Or more accurately, a little bit here and a little bit there of what you guys have presented

Grateful for what you may ask. Well, the more I browse through these eschatology threads, and rediscover the abject failure of so many to contribute to the topic without using their own imagination to invent theories completely unrelated to biblical revelation, or to mix and match unrelated symbolism, and draw conclusions without foundation, makes me grateful for God grace in leading me to Seventh Day Adventist eschatology.
It's the only one that harmonises prophecy with history... is the only one that uses biblical answers to interpret symbols... is the only one that gives a clear picture of where we are in the stream of time.
Yes I know you will all be up in arms at such a claim. That's fine. I know you mean well. Take the actual topic of this thread. Querying the hermeneutics that people use for understanding prophecy. Nearly all of you follow hermeneutics invented as part of the counter Reformation by two Jesuits, with the sole purpose of hiding the papacy in prophecy. The reformers had the antichrist, the man of sin, the little horn, dead to rights. They knew who it was. The reformation was built and grew and threatened to tear down the fabricated web of lies and deceit erected by the papal system. Without them, we would all be still living in the dark ages believing in the same superstitions and trusting in the same relics and rituals foisted on Christianity by that false counterfeit.
Discard those lies of Jesuitism. Futurism and preterism are lies. They are deceptive, misleading, distracting, rabbit holes without end or resolution. Shed them now before it's too late.
Some of you can see the inconsistencies in your own schemes. But have to use your imagination and unravel truth in order to support other concoctions to get round them. The Bible is correct when it describes the last day church as Babylon the Great. It's confused, it doesn't know, it doesn't understand, and it's too proud to admit it. "I sit a Queen etc etc. "