Schemes...

[ewq1938]

These are always lively threads, with much cotentious debate. Basically it can be said that eshcatology is how one interprets the bible. There are two camps, some read it literally (PreMil) and figuratively (Amil).

Both interpret some things literally and some figuratively. Premill usually is more literal and less figurative while Amill is more figurative and less literal.

 

[ProDeo]

Here’s the thing, in my opinion, there is no eschatological view that doesn’t have problems. When we find something like three or four verses that seem to point in one direction while another verse points a different way,

That's the whole point, there is no sound eschatology, on any there are buts...

we tend to come up with rational reasons as to why that might be (I’m including myself).

I know and after some time I gave up, because it made no sense.

One day I might understand, Lord willing.

 

[Keraz]

You are misinterpreting that passage, as many others do as well. It's not talking about Bible readers like you and me and others having their own private interpretations of the prophecies that they are reading. It's talking about the prophets themselves not having their own private interpretations of the future apart from what the Holy Spirit was telling them. Which means that the prophecies were from God Himself and not from the prophets' imaginations (private interpretations).

2 Peter 1:19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Verse 21 has the explanation of what Peter said in verse 20 and it has nothing to do with people's interpretations of the prophecies, but rather with the fact that the prophets were given prophecies directly by God by way of the Holy Spirit and did not originate with their own minds (their own private interpretations of the future apart from what was revealed by God).

What Peter said applies to both the Prophets and to us today.
Jesus warned us to be careful of Pastors and teachers, who promote figments of their imagination. Like a rapture to heaven and AMill, for example.

 

[MA2444]

Both interpret some things literally and some figuratively. Premill usually is more literal and less figurative while Amill is more figurative and less literal.

Isn't that what I said?

But of course there will always be exceptions to the rule. That's just the way of people.

 

[Brakelite]

Historicism clings to the belief that prophecy began to be fulfilled from the time the prophecy was given, except in cases where particular time periods are specified.
For example. The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 began at a specific time, that being the time of the going forth of the commandment from Artexerxes for the rebuilding of the city and temple. This commandment is given in Ezra and is dated at 457BC. So 457BC can be the verifiable beginning of the 70 weeks, which from its fulfillment... the anointing of Messiah, can only be understood by interpreting the prophetic time as metaphorical days to be understood as years.
On the other hand, the visions of Daniel 2,7,8, and 11 begin from the time the first vision was given. That is, from the time and reign of Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon, the time of his dream of the statue. Daniel's prophecies and/visions are based on that sure foundation. As history unfolded, so also did the prophecy. That's historicism.
Apocalyptic prophecies particularly as in Daniel and revelation, end at the second coming.
Some views, for example, such as the interpretation that Daniel 2 finished at the reformation makes no sense when taking into account the complete destruction of the 5 powers in the statue by the yet to come second coming of Christ.
Historicism has history very firmly on its side. Often written across the pages of history in the blood of martyrs. On the other hand, the most popular view, made so only through fictional media, has no historical context. Some futurists believe the last days began in 1948, others don't see the last days at least for another hundred years or so. Preterism however has all or most prophecy fulfilled by 70AD, which fails to explain why God didn't know anything about the last 1950 years. Quite the conundrum when God promised that He would do nothing without revealing His intentions to His servants the prophets. Amos 3:7.
And historicism is really in the same boat as preterism. No explanation for the last 2000 years. Did God not know?
The irony is that both futurism and preterism were created by two Catholic Jesuit priests as tools of the counter Reformation. The reformers were historicists. They may have disagreed with each other on many things. But on who scripture unmistakeably pointed to as the Antichrist the reformers were in almost unanimous agreement. And Rome's only counter argument was to reinvent the wheel and make one version oval and the other square. Neither works. Except in hiding the real enemy to Protestantism on prophecy, and the real Christ.

 

[covenantee]

And historicism is really in the same boat as preterism. No explanation for the last 2000 years. Did God not know?

Can't be accurate, since historicism recognizes the Reformation, as you've observed.

 

[Brakelite]

Can't be accurate, since historicism recognizes the Reformation, as you've observed.

Sorry, you're right. Meant preterism the same as futurism. Both effectively hide the papacy from view.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Both interpret some things literally and some figuratively. Premill usually is more literal and less figurative while Amill is more figurative and less literal.

This is not true about Amill. Amill is primarily based on literal, clear scriptures. The difference between Amil and Premill is that Amill interprets literal text literally and figurative text figuratively while Premill often interprets figurative text literally and sometimes literal text figuratively.

The Amill belief that Jesus is reigning now and has been since His resurrection is based on literal scriptures such as Matthew 28:18 where Jesus said all authority was given to Him in heaven and on earth.

The Amil belief that believers are priests of God and of Christ now is based on literal scriptures like 1 Peter 2:9 which calls the church "a royal priesthood" and on Revelation 1:5-6 where it says Jesus has made us kings and priests (or a kingdom of priests).

The Amil belief that the saved and lost will be resurrected at the same general time is based on taking John 5:28-29 literally when Jesus said a singular hour or time is coming when all of the dead will be raised.

The Amil belief that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns is based on literal scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39 where Jesus associates heaven and earth passing away with the day of His second coming and where He said just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood in Noah's day it will be like that when He comes again (all unbelievers will be destroyed). And on literal scrpiture like 2 Peter 3:10-12 which indicates that the earth will be burned up on the day the Lord Jesus comes as a thief in the night.

The Amil belief that all people will be judged at the same time is based on literal scripture like Matthew 13:36-43 where Jesus explains the parable of the wheat and tares (Matt 13:24-30) by indicating that the righteous and wicked will be judged at the same time when the end of the age comes. He indicated the same thing in Matthew 13:47-50 and in Matthew 25:31-46 He has all people, saved and lost, being gathered before Him to be judged at the same time.

 

[Scott Downey]

This is not true about Amill. Amill is primarily based on literal, clear scriptures. The difference between Amil and Premill is that Amill interprets literal text literally and figurative text figuratively while Premill often interprets figurative text literally and sometimes literal text figuratively.

The Amill belief that Jesus is reigning now and has been since His resurrection is based on literal scriptures such as Matthew 28:18 where Jesus said all authority was given to Him in heaven and on earth.

The Amil belief that believers are priests of God and of Christ now is based on literal scriptures like 1 Peter 2:9 which calls the church "a royal priesthood" and on Revelation 1:5-6 where it says Jesus has made us kings and priests (or a kingdom of priests).

The Amil belief that the saved and lost will be resurrected at the same general time is based on taking John 5:28-29 literally when Jesus said a singular hour or time is coming when all of the dead will be raised.

The Amil belief that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns is based on literal scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39 where Jesus associates heaven and earth passing away with the day of His second coming and where He said just as all unbelievers were destroyed in the flood in Noah's day it will be like that when He comes again (all unbelievers will be destroyed). And on literal scrpiture like 2 Peter 3:10-12 which indicates that the earth will be burned up on the day the Lord Jesus comes as a thief in the night.

The Amil belief that all people will be judged at the same time is based on literal scripture like Matthew 13:36-43 where Jesus explains the parable of the wheat and tares (Matt 13:24-30) by indicating that the righteous and wicked will be judged at the same time when the end of the age comes. He indicated the same thing in Matthew 13:47-50 and in Matthew 25:31-46 He has all people, saved and lost, being gathered before Him to be judged at the same time.

Agree that it makes the most sense.
There is a '1000' year reign in heaven right now and it's symbolic of a long time between Christ ascending and leading the captivity captive into heaven with him as we read in Acts and Ephesians and the end of the world at His return.

Christ is the Door into heaven, no one enters heaven but by Him, so all the OT saints who died, Christ brought them into the New
Covenant so they could be removed from the captivity of sheol, and be taken into heaven to be with Him

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Agree that it makes the most sense.
There is a '1000' year reign in heaven right now and it's symbolic of a long time between Christ ascending and leading the captivity captive into heaven with him as we read in Acts and Ephesians and the end of the world at His return.

Christ is the Door into heaven, no one enters heaven but by Him, so all the OT saints who died, Christ brought them into the New
Covenant so they could be removed from the captivity of sheol, and be taken into heaven to be with Him

Jesus reigns over the earth as well. Not physically, obviously. But, spiritually. He said Himself that He was given all power in heaven AND earth (Matthew 28:18). Scripture says that He IS the ruler of the earth (Revelation 1:5). Also, I would not say that the thousand years ends at His return. There is Satan's little season that occurs when the thousand years ends (Rev 20:3,7-9) and then He returns.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus reigns over the earth as well. Not physically, obviously. But, spiritually. He said Himself that He was given all power in heaven AND earth (Matthew 28:18). Scripture says that He IS the ruler of the earth (Revelation 1:5). Also, I would not say that the thousand years ends at His return. There is Satan's little season that occurs when the thousand years ends (Rev 20:3,7-9) and then He returns.

Satan is over and out when Christ returns for sure. Satan is consumed with the brightness of Christ at His coming.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.1

 

[Scott Downey]

Seeing at Christ's return Satan is destroyed, we know at that point he must have been cast into the lake of fire, not just locked up.
Satan being locked up happened at the Accension of Christ when Christ was given all authority and power. Of course, the demons, and his angels were still left free to cause mischief. And there was also communication between Satan and His angels while locked up. But Satan himself was constrained in his prison, so limited in what he could do. Christ triumphed over principalities and powers.

But at the end of the age, Satan is fully loosed and that is why the end of the last days is so terrible. What with all the lying wonders and false miracles, the beast rising out of the sea, the numbering of the beast, the war against the saints, the one world evil government, the antichrist figure, the false prophet, unholy trinity, etc...

You cannot read Revelation as a road map except in a symbolic generalized sense. IF you are going to make the millennial reign 'amillennial', you also have to make the other verses in that chapter symbolic.

Satanic Rebellion Crushed​

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The above must happen at the fiery return of Christ in 2 Thess 2, as we read that is when Satan is destroyed, and consumed. So Satan is gone at the rending of the world before the final judgement.

 

[ewq1938]

Satan is over and out when Christ returns for sure. Satan is consumed with the brightness of Christ at His coming.

No, he isn't. You are confusing what is said about the man of sin, not satan.

 

[Douggg]

Seeing at Christ's return Satan is destroyed, we know at that point he must have been cast into the lake of fire, not just locked up.

When Jesus's returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives directly across from the Temple mount, He will stare at the statue image of the beast -king on the temple mount - indwelt by Satan.

That statue image will go up in flames, turned to ashes. Exposing Satan for everyone to see that day. Fulfilling Ezekiel 28:16-19.

Exposed, then the angel in Revelation 20:1-3 descends and binds Satan with a chain and casts him into the bottomless pit for the 1000 years.

Ezekiel 28:
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[ewq1938]

When Jesus's returns to stand on the Mt. of Olives directly across from the Temple mount, He will stare at the statue image of the beast -king on the temple mount - indwelt by Satan.

That statue image will go up in flames, turned to ashes. Exposing Satan for everyone to see that day. Fulfilling Ezekiel 28:16-19.

That isn't about a statue, but a former Cherub which many believe is satan. Has nothing at all to do with the image of the beast.

 

[Douggg]

What Peter said applies to both the Prophets and to us today.
Jesus warned us to be careful of Pastors and teachers, who promote figments of their imagination. Like a rapture to heaven and AMill, for example.

Keraz, the rapture is not Matthew 24:31 because the rapture is preceded by a resurrection of them in Christ according to 1Thessalonians4:16-18.

The rapture/resurrection event will be before God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation, as the Church, i.e. the corporate body of believers, is taken out of this world.... to forever be with Christ... forever. Jesus is in heaven right now and does not return to earth until after the great tribulation is over.

Which then, the raptured/resurrected saints will return with Him.

 

[Douggg]

That isn't about a statue, but a former Cherub which many believe is satan. Has nothing at all to do with the image of the beast.

The statue image, the false prophet has made in Revelation 13:14. Once placed on the temple mount as the abomination of desolation, it says in Revelation 13:15 that the false prophet performs a miracle making it come to life and speak.

But it will be a false miracle because Satan will indwell the statue image. And people who worship the statue image will unknowingly be worshiping Satan. (Ezekiel 28:19, the people will be shocked to see it was Satan they had been worshiping.)

Revelation 13:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[Scott Downey]

You want proof the book of revelation is not linear time ?, read this
Revelation 6

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances​

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [g]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky [i]receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, [j]the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Revelation is a series of books in a book about the last days.
Different subchapters describing things occurring at different times, but it is not like a movie. So do not read it as one.

It is symbolic in places and literal in others.
You have to understand what Jesus said in the gospels about the end, and the letters to the churches describing the end, are literal, not symbolic

 

[Scott Downey]

The 1000 year restraint of Satan has Satan locked away by an angel. The angel who did that is the restrainer, not the church.
Satan is bound by order of God by an angel into a 'bottomless pit' until the end of the world where Satan is released to work all the false miracles and deceive the nations at the end of the age.

I take that to be Michael who typically has been the one to fight Satan through the history of this world. The 'he' of v7 cannot be the church as it is not a 'he', and cannot be God Himself as God cannot be taken away by any, but he can be a powerful angel.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. (locked up and bound by chains in the pit)

7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

v9-12 is in the future!
And even though written after v8, it occurs in linear time in the middle of v8

In the same way various parts of Revelation go into more detail about other parts of Revelation but not written in linear event of time.

 

[ewq1938]

The statue image, the false prophet has made in Revelation 13:14.

The FP doesn't make the image.

Once placed on the temple mount as the abomination of desolation, it says in Revelation 13:15 that the false prophet performs a miracle making it come to life and speak.

But it will be a false miracle because Satan will indwell the statue image.

Rev doesn't say satan indwells this "statue".

And people who worship the statue image will unknowingly be worshiping Satan. (Ezekiel 28:19, the people will be shocked to see it was Satan they had been worshiping.)

Revelation 13:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The verse in Ezekiel says nothing about a statue but speaks about a Cherub. It is not about the image of the beast. You are using eisegesis to force the image of the beast into the passage so you can say it gets burned at the second coming which is not found anywhere in the bible. It's being made up by you, or someone who you got it from.