Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Lizbeth]

Please explain?

You class yourself as wheat do you? and those who don’t believe as you do are the tares?

Because anyone can see that’s what you’re referring to...thankfully that nonsense don’t work on me.
Another word for the above underlined and highlighted in black...is SUPERIOR NONSENSE!

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Praise God for the testimony of his Living Spirit, that belief in any trinity..does not save us from eternal damnation......The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children, no trinity belief is needed...we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God.....Flesh gives birth to flesh.....Spirit gives birth to spirit....

Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God The Creator

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

I think my point was clear enough sister. Can't be a good thing when Christians start seeing Jesus as the world and false religions do, as a mere man or prophet. I would call that a falling away...apostasy.

 

[Wrangler]

YOU do NOT believe what Jesus taught.

LOL Pathological refusal to answer questions and projecting what is true about yourself. Jesus taught us to pray only to God the Father, who he taught is the only true God, where only true worshippers worship the Father.

 

[Ritajanice]

I think my point was clear enough sister. Can't be a good thing when Christians start seeing Jesus as the world

I’m not a Christian, I’m Born Again Christ follower as my spirit has been birthed into Christ ?

Spirit gives birth to spirit...means what?

and false religions do, as a mere man or prophet. I would call that a falling away...apostasy.

You just voiced your opinion..I would say that those who say , if you don’t believe the trinity then they have fallen away...apostasy...

I would say that is someone who doesn’t understand what it means to be Born Again...I would call them doctrine followers who follow their own understanding of the trinity.and bible...they have yet to understand what Spirit gives birth to spirit means/ Born Again/ regenerated/ Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed?

​

◄ 1 Corinthians 2 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Paul’s Message by the Spirit’s Power 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. Spiritual Wisdom (Ephesians 1:15–23) 6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God,a which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”b 10But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.c 14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?”d But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

On that point I was just pointing out that He was before the creation of the world. (And to my understanding that speaks of eternity.)

@Hepzibah also

IF the Word was brought forth, then it could not be equal to God.
God has to be uncreated.

I think this word BEGINNING is tripping up H....but I can't explain better than to say that BEGINNING has no meaning with God....He always existed....the Word always existed....

Some of us don't think enough....
Some of us think too much...

There must be a happy medium somewhere!

 

[GodsGrace]

I think my point was clear enough sister. Can't be a good thing when Christians start seeing Jesus as the world and false religions do, as a mere man or prophet. I would call that a falling away...apostasy.

Reminds me of the Arians....

They were banished from the early church....
and rightly so.

Unfortunately, some churches accept anything - I guess.

We are truly in the end times Paul spoke of when the very elect would be deceived.
Matthew 24:24
24for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.

 

[Ritajanice]

Reminds me of the Arians....

They were banished from the early church....
and rightly so.

Unfortunately, some churches accept anything - I guess.

We are truly in the end times Paul spoke of when the very elect would be deceived.
Matthew 24:24
24for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.

​

◄ 1 Corinthians 2 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Paul’s Message by the Spirit’s Power 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. Spiritual Wisdom (Ephesians 1:15–23) 6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God,a which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”b 10But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.c 14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?”d But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Lizbeth]

I’m not a Christian, I’m Born Again Christ follower as my spirit has been birthed into Christ ?

Spirit gives birth to spirit...means what?

You just voiced your opinion..I would say that those who say , if you don’t believe the trinity then they have fallen away...apostasy...

I would say that is someone who doesn’t understand what it means to be Born Again...I would call them doctrine followers who follow their own understanding of the trinity.and bible...they have yet to understand what Spirit gives birth to spirit means/ Born Again/ regenerated/ Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed?

​

◄ 1 Corinthians 2 ►

​

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Paul’s Message by the Spirit’s Power 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith would not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. Spiritual Wisdom (Ephesians 1:15–23) 6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God,a which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”b 10But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.c 14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment. 16“For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?”d But we have the mind of Christ.

The deity of Christ is orthodox Christianity 101, Rita. Those who believe otherwise are believing an aberration and departing from sound doctrine. I'm really sad for those who can't see/hear the truth about this matter. As I said it's all over the scriptures. I can't keep up with threads very well any more and I'm sure these scrips and others I've posted have probably already been posted on this topic somewhere along the way, but here goes as a reminder anyway in case it helps:

Col 2:8-9

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.



Col 1:13-19

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

 

[Ritajanice]

The deity of Christ is orthodox Christianity 101, Rita. Those who believe otherwise are believing an aberration and departing from sound doctrine. I'm really sad for those who can't see/hear the truth about this matter. As I said it's all over the scriptures. I can't keep up with threads very well any more and I'm sure these scrips and others I've posted have probably already been posted on this topic somewhere along the way, but here goes as a reminder anyway in case it helps:

Col 2:8-9

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.



Col 1:13-19

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

Please stop evading my questions.

I am Born Again..I asked you what it means..Spirit gives birth to spirit?

If you don’t understand Born Again, which you clearly don’t...then belief in the trinity....is from your own following of doctrine...doctrine doesn’t bring your spirit Alive in Christ...?

You follow doctrine..from imo your own understanding no problem...

The word says..we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God?

He didn’t say that we must be Born Again of doctrine or follow doctrine to see the Kingdom Of God.?

If you understand Born Again...you could maybe then see clearly that Jesus was not fully God.

 

[Lizbeth]

Please stop evading my questions.

I am Born Again..I asked you what it means..Spirit gives birth to spirit?

If you don’t understand Born Again, which you clearly don’t...then belief in the trinity....is from your own following of doctrine...doctrine doesn’t bring your spirit Alive in Christ...?

You follow doctrine..from imo your own understanding no problem...

The word says..we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God?

He didn’t say that we must be Born Again of doctrine or follow doctrine to see the Kingdom Of God.?

I've talked with you before about the new birth and I agree with you on that.

It matters what happens after we are born again if we don't want to fall away. It matters what we believe and it matters how we walk.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please stop evading my questions.

I am Born Again..I asked you what it means..Spirit gives birth to spirit?

If you don’t understand Born Again, which you clearly don’t...then belief in the trinity....is from your own following of doctrine...doctrine doesn’t bring your spirit Alive in Christ...?

You follow doctrine..from imo your own understanding no problem...

The word says..we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God?

He didn’t say that we must be Born Again of doctrine or follow doctrine to see the Kingdom Of God.?

If you understand Born Again...you could maybe then see clearly that Jesus was not fully God.

Oh for goodness sake RJ
You're soooooo tiring.

Be happy.

YOU ARE THE ONLY BORN AGAIN HERE.
ONLY YOU KNOW WHAT BORN AGAIN MEANS.
ONLY YOUR SPIRIT IS BIRTHED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
ONLY YOU DON'T NEED DOCTRINE...BUT YOU SURE DO LOVE CALVIN.
ONLY YOU ARE ALIVE IN CHRIST.

 

[Ritajanice]

I've talked with you before about the new birth and I agree with you on that.

It matters what happens after we are born again if we don't want to fall away. It matters what we believe and it matters how we walk.

Once again you have evaded my questions.

What are you talking about, it matters what we believe after we’re Born Again.

By whose testimony were you Born Again...because you are making no sense?

Doctrine doesn’t birth our spirit....

@Lizbeth ..as soon as you were Born Again...what did the Spirit testify with your spirit?

Maybe you can answer that simple question?

 

[Ritajanice]

Oh for goodness sake RJ
You're soooooo tiring.

Be happy.

YOU ARE THE ONLY BORN AGAIN HERE.
ONLY YOU KNOW WHAT BORN AGAIN MEANS.
ONLY YOUR SPIRIT IS BIRTHED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
ONLY YOU DON'T NEED DOCTRINE...BUT YOU SURE DO LOVE CALVIN.
ONLY YOU ARE ALIVE IN CHRIST.

Try not to keep putting words into my mouth that I’ve never said...you spoke for me....which is a lie.

I’ve yet for you to explain what Born Again actually means?

No wonder you’re confused over the trinity, how can you possibly understand that the trinity isn’t biblical, if you don’t understand what it means to be Born Again...

You’re all over the place with your understanding of Born Again...

Maybe when you come to full understanding of what it means to be Born Again..we might be able to converse, you never want to discuss Born Again @GodsGrace .

Yet the word says we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Hepzibah also

IF the Word was brought forth, then it could not be equal to God.
God has to be uncreated.

God was in eternity. He was spirit and had no beginning, and was not begotten, and scripture says He can not change. He wanted to set up the universe, with the garden of Eden within, in order to produce His children, but He could not enter into another realm (physical) so in eternity, His Word was begotten, not made and that being shared in the same essence (and also did the Holy Spirit who would proceed later).

I earlier used the rib of Adam becoming woman as an analogy. Something like that.

The three are the only persons who can share in that nature. They share in the same nature but are in different positions of agency. The Father is at the top as far as agency is concerned according to he many scriptures the Uni's are producing.

Because the Begotten shared in His essence, He was also God. I believe at that point the Word came into being, God the Father had broken though and now there was creation, and in the beginning of it was the Word, and the Word was God, in a way we cannot quite grasp.

I think this word BEGINNING is tripping up H....but I can't explain better than to say that BEGINNING has no meaning with God....He always existed....the Word always existed....

Some of us don't think enough....
Some of us think too much...

There must be a happy medium somewhere!

 

[Hepzibah]

Also to add, that after the resurrection, Jesus resumed His form, of that being a sort of halfway between spirit and material. Part of both.

 

[Ritajanice]

ONLY YOU DON'T NEED DOCTRINE...BUT YOU SURE DO LOVE CALVIN

You do not need to read any doctrine to become Born Again.?

We are not Born Again by reading doctrine...we are Born Again by the Living Holy Spirit.

I have already spoken to you about Calvin, I have never ever read any of his teachings in my life...so stop with the remarks that I’m a Calvinist....I am not...I’m Born Again.

 

[Ritajanice]

Also to add, that after the resurrection, Jesus resumed His form, of that being a sort of halfway between spirit and material. Part of both.

How would you know that ...could you point me to the scripture that revealed that truth...that’s if it is Gods truth..thanks.

I noticed he did say to his disciples something about touching him etc...weren’t they scared when they saw him after his resurrection?

According to the New Testament writing, Jesus was firstborn from the dead, ushering in the Kingdom of God. He appeared to his disciples, calling the apostles to the Great Commission of forgiving sin and baptizing repenters, and ascended to Heaven

 

[Wrangler]

Once again you have evaded my questions.

It really is pathological how trinitarians evade questions.

 

[Hepzibah]

How would you know that ...could you point me to the scripture that revealed that truth...that’s if it is Gods truth..thanks.

I guess God is revealing it to my spirit eh Rita. Not everything is written down but we can use our minds to work somethings out that are implied. We are given the framework and having spiritual minds can discern things not specified like for example, how a man knows he is called to the ministry. He cannot give you personal scrips.

However I am open to be proven wrong.

 

[Hepzibah]

We are told that He could walk through walls and eat.

However I am open to be proven wrong.

 

[Ritajanice]

It really is pathological how trinitarians evade questions.

I think I’m going to give up with @GodsGrace @Lizbeth .....they evade all questions, don’t listen, and just voice what they believe....well that ain’t no discussion is it?..then keep trying to shut me up, when I speak about being Born Again ...my mind boggles.i have no idea why they keep doing that to be honest...then @Lizbeth says being Born Again is just the beginning...which makes no sense....anyway best leave it there...