Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Rich R]

Welcome to the discussion.

I am quoting Scripture GG posted today, it would be a great start

She posted -

-------------------

You want scripture re believing that Jesus is God?

John 8:58
58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

John 10:30
30"I and the Father are one.”

John 1:1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

WHO IS THE WORD? FIND OUT BECAUSE IN JOHN 1:14 IT BECOMES FLESH.

John 20:28
28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Colossians 2:9
29For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Hebrews 1:3
3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

John 5:18
18This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Titus 2:13
13Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

All those verses can easily be understood in a non-trinitarian way, but I'm sure you've heard them all and have come to a decision on the matter. Let's wait until Jesus returns and we no longer see through a dark glass to continue the discussion.

 

[Jack]

Yes, but it identifies who the one God is, namely, the Father. I don't think even the staunchest Trinitarian would say Jesus is God.

Huh?

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn’t say he wasn’t divine.....you will see that in my posts .

He had to be divine in part, as he was the Son Of God....that goes without saying...he just wasn’t fully God, so far that is my belief.

@ProDeo


Voila!

(just posted to you regarding the comment the above member made here).

 

[Rich R]

Huh?

Oops, meant to say, " don't think even the staunchest Trinitarian would say Jesus is the Father." I'll correct the post. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[GodsGrace]

All those verses can easily be understood in a non-trinitarian way, but I'm sure you've heard them all and have come to a decision on the matter. Let's wait until Jesus returns and we no longer see through a dark glass to continue the discussion.

Give it shot Rich....
We Christians don't tire of defending our faith.

The above was for @ProDeo and I can't read each and every post....this just popped up.

 

[GodsGrace]

Born Again is exactly what God says it is.....we have been supernaturally birthed into Christ, our spirit is as one in Christ.

Only Gods Living testimony can define who we are in Christ.....

No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think you understand that the Holy Spirit is Alive And Active in His Born Again children.

The verses you posted, did not state that Jesus was God...correct.

Please don’t start putting words into my mouth again....I have said nowhere that those who don’t believe as I do aren’t Born Again...

You need to ask God for the truth.

I already know the truth, that God and Jesus exists, I don’t need to know the truth from any human...only from God’s Living testimony his Living Holy Spirit ...when he birthed my spirit into his..Spirit gives birth to spirit.

By Gods Living testimony....who can prove that, no one...it’s biblical....plus how can one explain supernatural divine heart revelation...they can’t.

I understand the written word as I’ve been brought to understand it in my spirit...instead of voicing that I don’t understand the word of God..maybe say, I don’t understand the word the same as you do...

I’m not a Jew, I’m Born Again, therefore I have been grafted into the true vine...I said I don’t believe that Jesus is God...I said nothing about his death...no idea what you are referring to here.

You said Jesus was God.

There is no scripture that teaches that there is a Trinity.

A Born Again is not under the Old covenant, they are under the New Covenant.

Can you give me a verse where God says that Jesus is God?

I am one in spirit with Christ as a Born Again...which doesn’t make me Christ...one in spirit means, we belong to him in spirit, we are under the leading and authority of the Spirit...once we are Born Again, chosen and predestined to become Born Again, then we will be conformed into Jesus image...tell me how else can we be conformed into Jesus image if our spirit isn’t Born Again?

Already tried to help you understand this.

I am a Born Again Christ follower....

I am going by what I believe the Holy Spirit has brought me to believe/ understand, which is obviously not the same as what you believe...no problem...Jesus is not God...that’s what you believe the word of God to be saying.

Once again, you are telling me that I’m not under the authority of the Spirit....disagree, I am Gods child and am 100% under the authority of the Holy Spirit, who does the will of God through his children.

Matthew 7:21-23​

​

King James Version​

​

​

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You do write your opinions, same as everyone else, you can’t prove what you say is Gods truth, no more than I can...

All according to you....I was chosen and predestined to become Born Again just as Gods word says.
Of course I believe in predestination....it’s 100% biblical...which you don’t seem to understand what it means....which is quite understandable, going by reading your posts.

OK RJ,,,as usual...you know I'm not going to discuss with you forever.
3/4 of the stuff you wrote has nothing to do with anything.
Sorry.

 

[GodsGrace]

Relax a bit...

I'm afraid you might not like my answer. The list of beliefs and doctrines comes from the word of God, the Bible. Not from fables and the writings of religious fanatics and philosophers that took an interest in the Bible at one time, and then departed from it to use it and mix it in with their own vane ideas to make a name for themselves.

APAK
I'm so calm.
But yes,,,,very passionate about what is going on in Christianity.

So those that assembled the bible are FANATICS and PHILOSPHERS (you know, NOT theologians I guess) that took an interest in the bible at some time.

WHICH bible? Do you mean the NT?
There was no NT.

Then they departed from it?
BUT there was no bible right at the time the church was founded.

So, I can't first walk you through history to then be able to discuss history.

Your turn.

 

[GodsGrace]

Relax a bit...

I'm afraid you might not like my answer. The list of beliefs and doctrines comes from the word of God, the Bible. Not from fables and the writings of religious fanatics and philosophers that took an interest in the Bible at one time, and then departed from it to use it and mix it in with their own vane ideas to make a name for themselves.

But you forgot to post the list....

 

[Ritajanice]

OK RJ,,,as usual...you know I'm not going to discuss with you forever.
3/4 of the stuff you wrote has nothing to do with anything.
Sorry.

Of course it has nothing to do with anything, “ according to you” I can live with that...I’m here to represent Jesus,I’m not here to make sense to you.........by the way, under my avatar, check it out , Praise God for his wonderful Living testimony, bringing us to the truth of God, in our heart/ spirit...

A Born Again Christian....a 100% Christ follower....for the past 33 yrs....but, only because I know in my spirit that it’s Born Again and I belong to God.in the world not of the world....

Especially for you @GodsGrace

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure which Bible version you are quoting. Maybe the English Standard version? That is the only version I found that said Jesus upheld the "universe." About a dozen other versions I looked at, including the original Greek, say he upholds all "things." The question becomes what are those "things?"

Upholds the universe
Upholds all things

What's the difference?

I find it interesting that verse 2 says that God appointed Jesus as heir to all "things." There may be a clue to what the things are. But one thing is for sure, verse 2 says that God appointed Jesus to be the heir of all things. Seems to me that if Jesus were God, he'd already have those things. Did one part of God lack something until another part gave it to him?

Jesus is the heir because He is the Son of God.....Jesus is the Son,,,the REAL son, not the 2nd Person of the Trinity...the Word/Logos.
Jesus is superior to all the prophets because He is the Son in the sense of
Matthew 21:33-39
33“Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
34“When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.
35“The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.
36“Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
37“But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
38“But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’
39“They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40“Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?”

PS
I want to post this link.
I liked it for several reasons.

Christ Is Appointed Heir Of All Things - Gil Rugh

 

[Ritajanice]

 

[APAK]

APAK
I'm so calm.
But yes,,,,very passionate about what is going on in Christianity.

So those that assembled the bible are FANATICS and PHILOSPHERS (you know, NOT theologians I guess) that took an interest in the bible at some time.

WHICH bible? Do you mean the NT?
There was no NT.

Then they departed from it?
BUT there was no bible right at the time the church was founded.

So, I can't first walk you through history to then be able to discuss history.

Your turn.

Amusing as you continue to interpret my words into what you want it to mean to further your obvious agenda of the Trinity model of God not found in the Bible.

You know I never said or want to even think that the Bible was written by non-inspired people of God. What happened however after a few centuries after Christ, and you must know this already, some sneaky people of power and of the pen snuck into the Holy writ and modifies scripture here and there that served, you guessed it, their Trinity nondescript God. Now would you want to build your beliefs and doctrines on these contaminated areas of scriptures? It's disgusting.

So continue to shout out, as if folks with listen, that I might have said or suggested these Bible writers were fanatics, and it is lie of course. It is a wild gesture of desperation that will only get you a bad reputation, if not already.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but it identifies who the one God is, namely, the Father. I don't think even the staunchest Trinitarian would say Jesus is the Father.

Well, a case could be made.
But I'm not the one to explain it...

Well, as you correctly pointed out, a comma could make the difference. I suspect you know that there was no punctuation whatsoever in the original Greek text of Titus' letter. So the presence or absence of a comma really can't be used as a deciding factor.

Correct....the deciding factor is the concept GOD AND SAVIOR ...said concurrently indicating one person only.

Also, this phrase is repeated in 2 Peter 1:1 (GOD AND SAVIOR)

1To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Also, although interpretations might differe, I do beleive we should at least trust translators to do their best (although, yes, some bibles are prejudiced to one doctrine or other).

But what could be used to decide what Titus is saying is how Jesus is portrayed in other verses. Sorry to keep bringing it up, but 1 Cor 8:6 is still in the Bible and it does say quite clearly that only the Father is God.

Ok. So Romans 8:29 states that we are predestined. Should we all be reformed?
One verse does not doctrine make.
AND
it's correct in its statement, which is why I said it was irrelevant.
There is only One God
Jesus is the 2nd Person of Trinity...the Son eternal
God Father is not Jesus and V V.
I'm sure you've seen the diagram so I won't post it.
Or I could.

While Titus can go one way or the other, Corinthians is crystal clear. I would think it prudent to understand an unclear verse in light of a clear verse instead of the other way around.

Amen Rich. We might have gone to the same theological school (jk) except you forgot to take the Trinity course!

But this is not what I'm saying.
I cannot debate 1 Cor....I AGREE WITH IT.
But I've given many other verses (or have I but not to you?)

I think I understand what you are saying. But in any case, according to Phil 2:5-8, whatever was in Jesus' mind should be in our mind also. So if Jesus thought he was God, then we should also?

No Rich....you're a smart fella. I'm not replying to this because you can't be saying this.

In fact, what I like to point out is this:
IF Jesus is not God....then He must be a really good liar/impersonator (of the Messiah - wouldn't be the first one)
or
He was a crazy man that thought He was God.

Also, you're going beyond the point I was trying to make...

I might also point out that one thing being in the "form" of another thing does not make the two things equal. After his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples in "another form" (Mark 16:12). Was Jesus suddenly not God for a while?

NOT a physical form!
God Father is spirit....there is NO physical form.
He was in the form in other ways...

Also, Jesus stated I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

Also, you bring up another point which is not discussed much:
"God" was seen in the OT at times. Abraham's 3 angels comes to mind.
Maybe Jacob....
WHO was being seen if God is spirit and is the Invisible God??

I'd stop with the "it's not exactly like that." It's not really at all close to explaining the trinity.

Well, I teach the Trinity (or I used to, sorry) and there is really no way to explain it in human terms that will not get us into heresy....
But those were my best 3 tools....

I respect you for not accepting them - although most persons do.

A better analogy would be I'm Rich the Father, Rich the Son, and Rich the Brother. Unless we abandon the agreed upon meaning of simple words, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Why does that not make any sense?
I'm GG the Mother.
I'm GG the sister.
I'm GG the aunt.

But I'm still only one person.
(this is a heresy called modulism BTW,, but we'll put that aside - it's IS an acceptable way of explaining to those that are not scholars).

And if God did abandon the meaning of simple words, how would we know where else He may have done that? The Bible would be meaningless!

Agreed.


You don't know how many times I've stated this.
But I see no problem with the Trinity OR with Jesus being God as not being contained within scripture.

No words are being changed.....say so if you think I don't understand something.
I do this to the reformed all the time. lol

Making that align with trinity doctrine would mean that liquid is a "person," gas is a "person," and solid is a "person" and yet there is only one person. That doesn't help make the case.

Hmmm. Guess I should post the diagram.
Actually there ARE 3 PERSONS in ONE BEING.

I was hoping you'd understand it like this:
It's ONE ITEM
with 3 QUALITIES that are THAT ITEM but that CHANGE.

If one verse says Jesus is God and another says he is not God, then yes, there would be a glaring contradiction. That's precisely why I believe all verses say he is God or they all say he is not God. I think there are a few relatively unclear verses that could be taken as saying he is God. But I see many many more that say he is the son of God.

But some are speaking of JESUS as the human being (not person, Jesus is a divine Person, not a human person)
anyway....in that way Jesus can be said to the the Son of God.
BUT
it's never meant that way.
It's meant to minimize who Jesus is: GOD in the flesh. See John 1:14 THE WORD BECAME FLESH.

Jesus is the Son of God.
Mary is the mother.
God is the father. Joseph was not His father.

I find it more prudent to make the few unclear verses fit with the many clear verses. I'll admit there are some verses that I don't fully understand, but that doesn't change the fact that many verses say Jesus is in fact the son of God.

I prefer to err on the side of God's word which I'm told is inspired.
And how about those that the Apostles taught?
They believed Jesus was God...couldn't be clearer.
I like to read them when there's some conflict.
Some here tell me they're not inspired...which is interesting since they assmebled the NT, but....whatever (as they say).
I'm not here to give history lessons. But my belief is that every Christian should read the Early Church Fathers...very early...
pre nicene and preferably those that were taught by the Apostles.
They must surely know more than we do.

In the spirit of brotherly love, I'll read your reply, but I probably won't continue debating the subject. I don't want to create friction in the body. I love all Christians, Trinitarian or not.

I agree.
Except I've come to the conclusion that it's not up to US to decide if we're Christian or not.
If a person does not believe Jesus is God...what makes him think he's Christian?
I'm not asking you....just a thought.
Who makes the rules anyway?
Each individual?

And I feel like this is a very nice conversation...not easy to find on these sites...
but I respect your wish.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amusing as you continue to interpret my words into what you want it to mean to further your obvious agenda of the Trinity model of God not found in the Bible.

You know I never said or want to even think that the Bible was written by non-inspired people of God. What happened however after a few centuries after Christ, and you must know this already, some sneaky people of power and of the pen snuck into the Holy writ and modifies scripture here and there that served, you guessed it, their Trinity nondescript God. Now would you want to build your beliefs and doctrines on these contaminated areas of scriptures? It's disgusting.

So continue to shout out, as if folks with listen, that I might have said or suggested these Bible writers were fanatics, and it is lie of course. It is a wild gesture of desperation that will only get you a bad reputation, if not already.

Go back and read you post Apak.
YOU called the assemblers of the bible FANATICS.

It's there for everyone to see.
And this is turning into an argument...so I won't be replying to you.

THE TRINITY is in THE BIBLE.
What kind of a HUGE conspiracy would it have taken?
The persons in the NT would have had to plot with the writers hundreds of years later to come up with what you're talking about.

I love sci-fi, but not when it comes to theology.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As a godhead, God is reduced to a "thing" instead of a loving person, our Father. Doesn't seem that good to me.

As long as we don't care about the meaning of simple words and logic, we can make the Bible say whatever we want.

1 Cor 8:6,

yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we [are] for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we [are] through him.​

​

Even the trinity doctrine would not say Jesus is the Father, and yet this verse clearly says the one God is the Father. But again, if we want to abandon the normal meaning of "father" as well as Logic 101, then yes, we could make it say that Jesus is God.

Trinity doctrine does not say Jesus is the father, and would not.

There is one father. One son and one spirit

 

[Wrangler]

We Christians don't tire of defending our faith.

We are all Christian’s in this thread - despite claims to the contrary.

 

[Wrangler]

Who exalted Jesus greatly?

 

[Rich R]

Well, a case could be made.
But I'm not the one to explain it...

Correct....the deciding factor is the concept GOD AND SAVIOR ...said concurrently indicating one person only.

Also, this phrase is repeated in 2 Peter 1:1 (GOD AND SAVIOR)

1To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Also, although interpretations might differe, I do beleive we should at least trust translators to do their best (although, yes, some bibles are prejudiced to one doctrine or other).

Ok. So Romans 8:29 states that we are predestined. Should we all be reformed?
One verse does not doctrine make.
AND
it's correct in its statement, which is why I said it was irrelevant.
There is only One God
Jesus is the 2nd Person of Trinity...the Son eternal
God Father is not Jesus and V V.
I'm sure you've seen the diagram so I won't post it.
Or I could.

Amen Rich. We might have gone to the same theological school (jk) except you forgot to take the Trinity course!

But this is not what I'm saying.
I cannot debate 1 Cor....I AGREE WITH IT.
But I've given many other verses (or have I but not to you?)

No Rich....you're a smart fella. I'm not replying to this because you can't be saying this.

In fact, what I like to point out is this:
IF Jesus is not God....then He must be a really good liar/impersonator (of the Messiah - wouldn't be the first one)
or
He was a crazy man that thought He was God.

Also, you're going beyond the point I was trying to make...

NOT a physical form!
God Father is spirit....there is NO physical form.
He was in the form in other ways...

Also, Jesus stated I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

Also, you bring up another point which is not discussed much:
"God" was seen in the OT at times. Abraham's 3 angels comes to mind.
Maybe Jacob....
WHO was being seen if God is spirit and is the Invisible God??

Well, I teach the Trinity (or I used to, sorry) and there is really no way to explain it in human terms that will not get us into heresy....
But those were my best 3 tools....

I respect you for not accepting them - although most persons do.


Why does that not make any sense?
I'm GG the Mother.
I'm GG the sister.
I'm GG the aunt.

But I'm still only one person.
(this is a heresy called modulism BTW,, but we'll put that aside - it's IS an acceptable way of explaining to those that are not scholars).

Agreed.


You don't know how many times I've stated this.
But I see no problem with the Trinity OR with Jesus being God as not being contained within scripture.

No words are being changed.....say so if you think I don't understand something.
I do this to the reformed all the time. lol


Hmmm. Guess I should post the diagram.
Actually there ARE 3 PERSONS in ONE BEING.

I was hoping you'd understand it like this:
It's ONE ITEM
with 3 QUALITIES that are THAT ITEM but that CHANGE.

But some are speaking of JESUS as the human being (not person, Jesus is a divine Person, not a human person)
anyway....in that way Jesus can be said to the the Son of God.
BUT
it's never meant that way.
It's meant to minimize who Jesus is: GOD in the flesh. See John 1:14 THE WORD BECAME FLESH.

Jesus is the Son of God.
Mary is the mother.
God is the father. Joseph was not His father.


I prefer to err on the side of God's word which I'm told is inspired.
And how about those that the Apostles taught?
They believed Jesus was God...couldn't be clearer.
I like to read them when there's some conflict.
Some here tell me they're not inspired...which is interesting since they assmebled the NT, but....whatever (as they say).
I'm not here to give history lessons. But my belief is that every Christian should read the Early Church Fathers...very early...
pre nicene and preferably those that were taught by the Apostles.
They must surely know more than we do.

I agree.
Except I've come to the conclusion that it's not up to US to decide if we're Christian or not.
If a person does not believe Jesus is God...what makes him think he's Christian?
I'm not asking you....just a thought.
Who makes the rules anyway?
Each individual?

And I feel like this is a very nice conversation...not easy to find on these sites...
but I respect your wish.

Thanks for the kind words. I'll just say that I went to a Catholic school for 12 years where we had religion class 5 days a week. I'm very familiar with the trinity. I've just come to a point where I accept Jesus as the son of God and let it go at that. There is a world of difference between "the son of God" and "God the Son." The former is all over the scriptures whereas the latter is noticeably absent. I can't help but see that.

As per Romans 10:9 I confessed Jesus as my lord (he's my boss. Sometimes I actually do what he says. ) and I believed that God raised him from the dead. As the same verse says, that make me saved. Whether Jesus is God or not, I definitely don't see where I have to believe he is God in order to be saved. On the other hand, I don't see where someone who believes Jesus is God is not a Christian. I'd never suggest you are not a born again Christian. You're just a born again Christian who believes in the trinity. We'll both be on the new earth where we can continue this conversation with a more perfect insight. I look forward to meeting you face to face!

 

[Rich R]

Trinity doctrine does not say Jesus is the father, and would not.

There is one father. One son and one spirit

That's exactly my point. Jesus is not the Father. He's the son. Now couple that with 1 Cor 8:6 saying only the Father is God which would mean the son is not God. But I respect your belief.

 

[Lizbeth]

We are Born Of The Spirit that comes by Living supernatural divine heart revelation....the Bible confirms this...the Bible is not Gods Living testimony.and no, I don’t need two or 3 witnesses as in humans...to tell me my spirit is Born Again, that can only come by Gods Living testimony....who testifies with my spirit all day every day that I am Gods child.....no one could possibly know who is Born Again...just because they don’t understand the Bible as some others do....does not mean they are not Born Again.....we have different levels of faith also.....a Born Again is also a partaker Of the divine nature, we also have a new heart and spirit within.....hence being Born Again/ regenerated/ ....our spirit is in Christ Spirit.....we are under the leadership and authority of the Holy Spirit.....we no longer belong to the world, we belong to the Spirit Of God we are his spirit children..

By whose testimony?.....reading that your spirit is Born Again...does not make it so,as I’ve already explained as well as the word explains how we become Born Again....and it’s not by reading words and believing them....

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children...that’s when we know of Jesus and God in our heart/ spirit....the Living Spirit testifies Of God’s truth...not the Bible...the Bible confirms that we are Born Again by supernatural divine heart revelation....” Spirit gives birth to spirit “ pretty obvious that comes by supernatural divine heart revelation.

Scripture does confirm the testimony of the Living Holy Spirit....we are Born Of The Living Holy Spirit.....we are not Born Again by the Bible...

Flesh gives birth to flesh = a human birth..

Spirit gives birth to spirit = a Living supernatural rebirth, that comes by Gods Living Holy Spirit, he is Gods Living testimony....

I'm not just talking about being born again, but about doctrine. Everything isn't about being born again....after being born again there is so much to learn and grow in.

I don't think too many of us even knew the term born again until we read it in the bible sis....all we knew at the time it happened was Christ and Him crucified .....we hardly knew what on earth had just happened to us, only that we were changed and God and Jesus were real....until we started reading the bible and hearing it preached. Think I will rest my case right there.