When the Son of Man Comes:

[Keraz]

Scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurrected when He returns (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23)

This assertion is purely your personal opinion. Those verses do not say ALL the Christians will be resurrected then.
But the proof that only the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years will be brought back to life, is in Revelation 20:4.

Your continued promotion of false teaching of a general resurrection at the Return, is an indictment against you.

Where does it indicate that no one has glorified bodies there?

Where does it say - people will get glorified bodies?
Again; a wrong assumption by you.

You can't inherit that kingdom of God with mortal flesh and blood (1 Corinthians 15:50). So, they must have glorified bodies at that point.

That point comes after the Millennium, at the GWT Judgement. When the Kingdom of Jesus becomes the Kingdom of God.

And Matthew 25:31-46 will occur when Jesus returns. Which supports Amil.

Yet another wrong assumption made to suit a false belief.
Matthew 25:46 does not say when it will happen, we know when from Rev 20:11-15

 

[Keraz]

Do you think some people are going to appear both before the judgment seat of Christ and before a separate GWT?

Matthew 25:31-33 is a Judgment of the nations..
Revelation 20:11-15, is a Judgment of every individual who has ever lived.

Combining them. is gross error.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This assertion is purely your personal opinion.

Based on clear scriptures which indicate that the dead in Christ will be resurrected when He returns. You really can't be more clear than passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. When you miss something as simple as this, it makes me surprised whenever you do understand something correctly.

Those verses do not say ALL the Christians will be resurrected then.

Yes, they sure do. We've been over this and everyone here can see that you are in denial of clear scripture. It's sad. This isn't Ezekiel 38 or something difficult to interpret that we're talking about here. This is very straightforward.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

First, Paul said in Christ shall ALL be made alive. Is that verse in our Bible? Then it says when that will occur. It will be "at his coming", which is a reference to His return. Very simple. If you can't understand something this simple, then I'm not sure how you can understand anything.

But the proof that only the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years will be brought back to life, is in Revelation 20:4.

Why do you think it's okay to interpret Revelation 20:4 in such a way that blatantly contradicts clear scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23? Where does Paul indicate that dead believers will be resurrected at multiple times in the future? Nowhere! Do you thinnk that Paul didn't know what he was talking about?

Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection and everyone who becomes saved has part in His resurrection. That is what Revelation 20:4 is about. Those who are dead, but had spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection when they were alive which is why their souls then go to heaven to reign with Christ there.

The first resurrection:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Having part in the first resurrection:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Your continued promotion of false teaching of a general resurrection at the Return, is an indictment against you.

Empty words. It is what scripture teaches and is true.

Where does it say - people will get glorified bodies?
Again; a wrong assumption by you.

If you were honest, you would acknowledge that it doesn't mention one way or another if they have glorified bodies. So, we're both making assumptions about it. But, tell me, how else can someone inherit "eternal life" unless they have a glorified, immortal body? I think my assumption is a lot safer than yours.

That point comes after the Millennium, at the GWT Judgement. When the Kingdom of Jesus becomes the Kingdom of God.

That happens at His return, according to Paul. But, it seems that you don't care much for what Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Yet another wrong assumption made to suit a false belief.
Matthew 25:46 does not say when it will happen, we know when from Rev 20:11-15

Your pathetic attempt to separate Matthew 25:46 from Matthew 25:31-45 shows how you just believe what you want to believe instead of accepting what scripture teaches. It's very obvious that Matthew 25:46 relates directly to the verses that immediately precede it.

It talks about the sheep inheriting "eternal life" and we can safely assume it's talking about them inheriting eternal life when they inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world, as found in Matthew 25:34. Why would you think that Matthew 25:34 and Matthew 25:46 happen at different times? That's nonsense.

Likewise, it has the goats inheriting "everlasting punishment" in verse 46. It's safe to assume that everlasting punishment will be inherited in the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", as referenced in verse 41. There's no basis for trying to separate what is described in verse 41 from what is described in verse 46 as it relates to the goats (unbelievers).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 25:31-33 is a Judgment of the nations..
Revelation 20:11-15, is a Judgment of every individual who has ever lived.

Combining them. is gross error.

You aren't even reading Matthew 25:31-46 carefully. Do you think that entire nations will inherit "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"? Will entire nations be judged on how they treated the needy? What if some from a nation treated them well and some not? How can the entire nation be judged the same way? That's nonsense. Will entire nations be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"? The answer to all those questions is no. Those things apply to individuals, not nations. It's not a judgment of nations, it's a judgment of every individual who has ever lived, just like Revelation 20:11-15. Eternal rewards or sentences are given out in Matthew 25:31-46. Since when does that concept apply to nations rather than individuals? Never.

 

[Keraz]

Do you think that entire nations will inherit "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"?

Remember we are reading a translation.
'nations' in Matthew 25, refers to people groups, not countries as we know them today.

Why do you think it's okay to interpret Revelation 20:4 in such a way that blatantly contradicts clear scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23?

It is Revelation 20:4 which makes the definitive statement. ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised at Jesus' Return.
1 Cor 15:22-23 does not say when all will be raised. Again; Revelation 20:11-15 does.

The false teaching of a general resurrection when Jesus Returns, is deeply ingrained into Christian belief. Not going to happen, - ALL the rest of the dead must wait until the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:5 after the thousand years is past....

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Remember we are reading a translation.
'nations' in Matthew 25, refers to people groups, not countries as we know them today.

My point stands. It's not talking about the judgment of nations or people groups. Matthew 25:31-46 describes the judgment of individuals. People groups as a whole will not inherit "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world". People groups as a whole will not be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Individuals will.

It is Revelation 20:4 which makes the definitive statement. ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised at Jesus' Return.
1 Cor 15:22-23 does not say when all will be raised. Again; Revelation 20:11-15 does.

Yes, 1 Cor 15:22-23 does say all will be raised. You just choose to ignore that because you apparently think Paul didn't know what he was talking about.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The false teaching of a general resurrection when Jesus Returns, is deeply ingrained into Christian belief.

It's the truth. You lack the discernment to see it.

Not going to happen,

It will happen for certain.

- ALL the rest of the dead must wait until the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:5 after the thousand years is past....

The rest of the dead are unbelievers who do not spiritually have part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection. Instead of reigning with Christ since His resurrection, they only look forward to judgment when they stand before Him to give an account of themselves.

The first resurrection:

Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Having part in the first resurrection:

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

 

[Keraz]

Yes, 1 Cor 15:22-23 does say all will be raised. You just choose to ignore that because you apparently think Paul didn't know what he was talking about.

It just doesn't say when.
Do you deny that it is Revelation 20:11-15 that tells us when - all will be raised. At the final Judgment, a thousand years after Jesus Returns.

Any fanciful ideas of anyone receiving immortality before they stand before God and the Book of Life is opened, is false and cannot happen.

 

[ewq1938]

It just doesn't say when.
Do you deny that it is Revelation 20:11-15 that tells us when - all will be raised. At the final Judgment, a thousand years after Jesus Returns.

Any fanciful ideas of anyone receiving immortality before they stand before God and the Book of Life is opened, is false and cannot happen.

How can the two prophets in Rev 11 survive rising from Earth into heaven unless they have been raised immortal? Same with the raptured saints, who survive the trib. How can they survive meeting Christ in the clouds if they are still mortal? How can anyone who rules with Christ for a thousand years, survive for a thousand years if they are mortals?

 

[face2face]

@Keraz I saw on your website that you have an understanding of the second exodus. Do you align with the Jubilee Period in relation to the events surrounding the Lord's return?

 

[Keraz]

@Keraz I saw on your website that you have an understanding of the second exodus. Do you align with the Jubilee Period in relation to the events surrounding the Lord's return?

I believe the Jubilee periods are important, but I am unable to reconcile Jubilees with the 7000 year time for mankind and the pivotal events.

I will post a thread on the great Second Exodus.

 

[Keraz]

How can the two prophets in Rev 11 survive rising from Earth into heaven unless they have been raised immortal? Same with the raptured saints, who survive the trib. How can they survive meeting Christ in the clouds if they are still mortal? How can anyone who rules with Christ for a thousand years, survive for a thousand years if they are mortals?

Those 2 Witnesses, will be raised by Jesus at His Return, along with all the other Christians murdered during the 42 months of 'beast' control.
The Voice calls from heaven, but they will just go up into the clouds, as will everyone; 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31, then to Jerusalem, where they will be His priests and co-rulers.

All the people in the Millennium will be mortal and can die, just as Lazarus did; - Some raised back to physical life and all living much, much longer.
Revelation 20:6, makes this clear, how their second death will not affect their receiving immortality at the GWT Judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It just doesn't say when.

Yes, it does. It says it will happen when Jesus comes again. You're not reading 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 as one narrative, but it is. In verse 22, Paul says that all will be resurrected and then he proceeds to say there is an order to the resurrections. He reiterates that Christ's resurrection was first in order and next in order are those that belong to Christ at His second coming. He doesn't mention any other resurrections, so it's safe to conclude that the all that He said would be resurrected will be resurrected at Christ's return. You are denying the obvious here.

Do you deny that it is Revelation 20:11-15 that tells us when - all will be raised. At the final Judgment, a thousand years after Jesus Returns.

No, the judgment occurs when He returns. Again, you are missing the obvious. That can be clearly seen in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 that talks about all people standing before the throne to be judged right after Jesus comes with His angels.

Any fanciful ideas of anyone receiving immortality before they stand before God and the Book of Life is opened, is false and cannot happen.

You keep saying that, but what is your reasoning for saying that? Believers will have their immortal bodies when standing before the throne but will have not yet be told to inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. They will not yet have been placed on the new earth to spend eternity there, but it will happen right after the judgment is over.

 

[ewq1938]

Those 2 Witnesses, will be raised by Jesus at His Return, along with all the other Christians murdered during the 42 months of 'beast' control.
The Voice calls from heaven, but they will just go up into the clouds, as will everyone; 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31, then to Jerusalem, where they will be His priests and co-rulers.

All the people in the Millennium will be mortal and can die, just as Lazarus did; - Some raised back to physical life and all living much, much longer.
Revelation 20:6, makes this clear, how their second death will not affect their receiving immortality at the GWT Judgment.

You didn't answer how mortal saints can survive going into heaven, going up to the clouds, or how they can live for a thousand years to rule with Christ.

 

[Keraz]

You didn't answer how mortal saints can survive going into heaven, going up to the clouds, or how they can live for a thousand years to rule with Christ.

I didn't because such an idea is totally unscriptural and contradicts the Words of Jesus. John 3:13 NO ONE goes to heaven......

Those people in the Millennium, will live on earth, much the same as we do now.

all that He said would be resurrected will be resurrected at Christ's return. You are denying the obvious here.

You are a denier of plainly stated scripture. Revelation 20:4-6, obviously says that ALL Christians are not Judged at the Return.

We shouldn't worry about when the Judgment and immortality comes. All in Gods good time.
But I think that any wrong beliefs and doctrines are bad and need to be corrected. They can lead to further error and confusion.

 

[jeffweeder]

Those people in the Millennium, will live on earth, much the same as we do now.

It is now

You are a denier of plainly stated scripture. Revelation 20:4-6, obviously says that ALL Christians are not Judged at the Return.

All who have believed are rewarded.

2Thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day ,
and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives]. 11 With this in view, we constantly pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of your calling [to faith] and with [His] power fulfill every desire for goodness, and complete [your] every work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you [by what you do], and you in Him, according to the [precious] grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2tim 4
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure [from this world] is at hand and I will soon go free. 7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error].
8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.

We shouldn't worry about when the Judgment and immortality comes. All in Gods goof time.

We have a goofy God?
Think you meant good

But I think that any wrong beliefs and doctrines are bad and need to be corrected. They can lead to further error and confusion.

They clearly lead to more error and confusion

 

[ewq1938]

I didn't because such an idea is totally unscriptural and contradicts the Words of Jesus. John 3:13 NO ONE goes to heaven......

You are very wrong.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Those people in the Millennium, will live on earth, much the same as we do now.

You still avoid answering HOW the saints that rule with Christ can live for a thousand years.

 

[Keraz]

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The Greek word translated - heaven is 'ouranon'. It refers to the sky, NOT to Gods heavenly dwelling place.

You still avoid answering HOW the saints that rule with Christ can live for a thousand years.

God says it; ask Him. Remember Methuselah nearly made it!

 

[ewq1938]

The Greek word translated - heaven is 'ouranon'. It refers to the sky, NOT to Gods heavenly dwelling place.

You clearly haven't studied this because that is false:

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven (ouranon), and devoured them.

God says it; ask Him. Remember Methuselah nearly made it!

It's because they are immortal at the resurrection and rapture. That's how they live through and past the thousand years, how the two prophets rise up into the heaven where God is, and how the living raptured saints can survive going into the clouds/

 

[Keraz]

You clearly haven't studied this because that is false:

Jesus will call the 2 Witnesses up to Him, as He arrives in the clouds. 1 Thess 4:16-17, says it.
Why would they go to heaven? Or any earth person; What earthly use is that?

It is foolishness to believe Gods heaven is our ultimate destination. Revelation 21-22 refutes such a crazy idea.

It's because they are immortal at the resurrection and rapture

Nowhere does the Bible say Jesus will make people immortal when He Returns, or for the Millennium. Revelation 20:4-6 says the dead must wait for the GWT Judgment. The living faithful Christians will inhabit the world during the Millennium, but they will die off and the generation alive at the end, will be susceptible to Satan when he is released. Rev 20:7-10

I suggest you re-think your stand on when people get immortality and whether people ever go to heaven. The Bible does inform us.
Making definitive statements, as you do; which are not Biblical truths, is a serious mistake.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus will call the 2 Witnesses up to Him, as He arrives in the clouds. 1 Thess 4:16-17, says it.
Why would they go to heaven?

Because God says so. You were wrong about what 'ouranon' means and you are wrong about this also.

Do you admit 'ouranon' can indeed be the heaven where God is? I proved it with scripture and you side stepped it,. Do you accept valid correction or not?