When the Son of Man Comes:

[Keraz]

Because God says so. You were wrong about what 'ouranon' means and you are wrong about this also.

Do you admit 'ouranon' can indeed be the heaven where God is? I proved it with scripture and you side stepped it,. Do you accept valid correction or not?

We can get verification from other scripture and in this case, 1 Thess 4:17, tells us that when Jesus Returns, He will be in the clouds, He has left Gods heaven and at the point when He gathers up His faithful peoples, those who remain alive AND the dead martyrs; INCLUDING the two Witnesses, He will be in the atmospheric clouds.

I wonder if its possible for you to admit error?

 

[Keraz]

Do you accept the two Witnesses being raised by Jesus at His Return, will be either Priests or co-rulers with Hin for the Millennium?
Why would they go to heaven, to do what? - while King Jesus rules on earth?

Your whole premise about the two Witnesses, is wrong and without scriptural support.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you accept the two Witnesses being raised by Jesus at His Return, will be either Priests or co-rulers with Hin for the Millennium?
Why would they go to heaven, to do what? - while King Jesus rules on earth?

Your whole premise about the two Witnesses, is wrong and without scriptural support.

You are avoiding the error of yours I corrected.

Do you admit 'ouranon' can indeed be the heaven where God is? I proved it with scripture and you side stepped it. Do you accept valid correction or not?

 

[Douggg]

Jesus will call the 2 Witnesses up to Him, as He arrives in the clouds.

No, at the time of the two witnesses ascending up to heaven in a cloud - the people of the earth will have been making merry and exchanging gifts over their deaths.

Making merry and exchanging gifts does not fit the condition of the world at the end of the 7 years.

The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the first half of the 7 years, coinciding with the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6.

 

[Keraz]

You are avoiding the error of yours I corrected.

Do you admit 'ouranon' can indeed be the heaven where God is? I proved it with scripture and you side stepped it. Do you accept valid correction or not?

Words in any language have meaning according to their context. The 'ouranon' in 1 Thess 4:17, refers to the sky.
That is all I need to say.

Making merry and exchanging gifts does not fit the condition of the world at the end of the 7 years.

This isn't a valid argument, as although the world will have just experienced the Great Tribulation, the survivors can and will celebrate the deaths of the two Witnesses. Your shuffling of Revelation to suit your private beliefs, is error.

 

[Douggg]

This isn't a valid argument, as although the world will have just experienced the Great Tribulation, the survivors can and will celebrate the deaths of the two Witnesses. Your shuffling of Revelation to suit your private beliefs, is error.

No, no one is going to be making merry and exchanging gifts 3 1/2 days before Jesus descends from heaven. The world will be in fear of the coming judgment, preparing to make war on Jesus and His army, as the heavens themself will have been shaken and Jesus is seen by them on the earth, with sickle in His hand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding the timing of the two witnesses's 1260 days....

To understand the timeline events in Revelation, it is simply a matter of matching like timeframes together - as to whether they are in the first half or the second half.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3
1260 days - Revelation 12:6

Second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2
42 months - Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14
time, times, half time - Daniel 7:25
time, times, half time - Daniel 12:7

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Words in any language have meaning according to their context. The 'ouranon' in 1 Thess 4:17, refers to the sky.
That is all I need to say.

While I agree that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers to the sky when it refers to "the air", it's not the word "ouranon" that is translated as "the air" in that verse. Instead, it is the word "aēr", which is a word used to refer to the air around us or to the earth's atmosphere extended up into the sky that we can see. So, you can't really use 1 Thess 4:17 to definitively prove what the word "ouranon" means in Revelation 11:12 since that word isn't even used in 1 Thess 4:17.

With that said, the word "ouranon" used in Revelation 11:12 CAN refer to the earth's atmosphere, which can be referred to as the first heaven (in contrast to the third heaven where Jesus resides) and I believe it does. That word can be used to refer to the heaven where Jesus resides (the third heaven) as well, so that's why this is debatable.

 

[ewq1938]

No, no one is going to be making merry and exchanging gifts 3 1/2 days before Jesus descends from heaven.

Of course they will be. The two prophets who tormented them are dead and they believe they have a God with them so they will celebrate. Sudden destruction will come to them, just as Christ promised.

 

[Douggg]

Of course they will be. The two prophets who tormented them are dead and they believe they have a God with them so they will celebrate. Sudden destruction will come to them, just as Christ promised.

No, the world will be in terror/fear mode, not celebrating mode, the last 3 1/2 days of the seven 7 years when Jesus descends to earth.

 

[Douggg]

This isn't a valid argument, as although the world will have just experienced the Great Tribulation, the survivors can and will celebrate the deaths of the two Witnesses. Your shuffling of Revelation to suit your private beliefs, is error.

Keraz, it does not say anything in Revelation 11 about the world seeing Jesus when the two witnesses are called up to heaven. The event does not take place at Jesus's return.

When Jesus returns, every eye will see Him.

Revelation 11:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[ewq1938]

No, the world will be in terror/fear mode, not celebrating mode, the last 3 1/2 days of the seven 7 years when Jesus descends to earth.

It's 42 months total not 84/7 years and at it's end, they will be celebrating as Rev 11 shows but 3.5 days later Christ suddenly returns and brings wrath with him.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

This matches this same concept:

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

They always live normally and happily until sudden wrath comes. In those days a flood of watery wrath and in the future, a flood of wrath from Christ and 7 vials.

 

[ewq1938]

Keraz, it does not say anything in Revelation 11 about the world seeing Jesus when the two witnesses are called up to heaven. The event does not take place at Jesus's return.

When Jesus returns, every eye will see Him.

Revelation 11:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

LOl...that happens later in Rev 11 at the 7th trump. It is the last trump when Christ returns.

 

[Keraz]

No, the world will be in terror/fear mode, not celebrating mode, the last 3 1/2 days of the seven 7 years when Jesus descends to earth.

You love your own opinions and lack of scriptural support is of no concern to you.
Think hard: Won't those who see the 2W's, who had caused much trouble to them: be happy to see them dead?

However. the Prophesies blow any false interpretations out of the water. Revelation 11:1-13, quite clearly tells of the two Witnesses doing their thing during the 1260 day period of world control by the 'beast'. WHY would their Ministry be in the first 1260 days, when Jerusalem will be peaceful, as the peace treaty holds.
Proved by the earthquake of verse 13, being the same one as in Revelation 16:18

 

[Douggg]

You love your own opinions and lack of scriptural support is of no concern to you.
Think hard: Won't those who see the 2W's, who had caused much trouble to them: be happy to see them dead?

Of course those who will be celebrating the deaths of the two witnesses will be happy to see them dead. That is not the issue.

Revelation 11:1-13, quite clearly tells of the two Witnesses doing their thing during the 1260 day period of world control by the 'beast'. WHY would their Ministry be in the first 1260 days, when Jerusalem will be peaceful, as the peace treaty holds.

The little horn person becomes the beast in latter part of the 1260 day first half of the two witnesses.

The two witnesses will be testifying and prophesying against the newly anointied king of Israel thought-to-be messiah. Warning the Jews of what is to come. And what to do when they see the abomination of desolation on the temple mount - flee to the mountains right away.

The two witnesses will battle the beast-king for 75 days, while the Jews flee to the mountains.

Keraz, do you really think people of the world will be making merry and exchanging gifts when Jesus sickle in hand is appearing over them during that time ?

 

[Douggg]

LOl...that happens later in Rev 11 at the 7th trump. It is the last trump when Christ returns.

The 7th trumpet announces what the third woe will be...... Satan cast down to earth having but a time, times, half time left.

Back to the two witnesses. No-one sees Jesus when the two witnesses are called up to heaven in Revelation 11. Since every eye will see Jesus at His return, the two witnesses are not called up at Jesus's return.

 

[Keraz]

Of course those who will be celebrating the deaths of the two witnesses will be happy to see them dead. That is not the issue.

What??? That IS the issue. You did say there will be no celebrating at the death of the 2W's.
You have been shown to be wrong and your charts just shredder material.

The little horn person becomes the beast in latter part of the 1260 day first half of the two witnesses.

The 'beast' is exposed after he sits in the Temple, at the beginning of the second 1260 day period.

The two witnesses will be testifying and prophesying against the newly anointied king of Israel thought-to-be messiah. Warning the Jews of what is to come

What 'king of Israel? Nowhere in scripture have I seen any mention of a King in Israel, except when Jesus returns; Rev 19:16
As for the Jews, it will be way too late for any warning; they will be gone on the Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Matthew 8:12 Romans 2:18, +

Keraz, do you really think people of the world will be making merry and exchanging gifts when Jesus sickle in hand is appearing over them during that time ?

The Prophecy in Revelation 14:18-20, I believe applies to the Sixth Seal event. It does not fit anywhere else.

 

[Douggg]

What??? That IS the issue. You did say there will be no celebrating at the death of the 2W's.

No, I did not say that. I wrote that the making marry and exchanging gifts will not be at the end of the 7years, but at the middle of the 7 years.

The 'beast' is exposed after he sits in the Temple, at the beginning of the second 1260 day period.

The sitting in the temple act reveals him as the man of sin. Then he will be killed for the act.

Then the person becomes the beast after he returns to life from being killed.

After becoming the beast, the statue image will be made of him and placed on the temple mount on day 1185 of the timeline - 1335 days before Jesus returns. Day 1185 is still in the first half, 75 days before the exact midpoint of day 1260. During that 75 days the two witnesses will battle the beast as the Jews flee to mountains.

 

[ewq1938]

The 7th trumpet announces what the third woe will be...... Satan cast down to earth having but a time, times, half time left.

No, satan was cast down LONG before the 7th trump sounds. He also does not have another 3.5 years. When the last trump sounds, Christ returns and Armageddon will be fought, and satan will be imprisoned for a thousand years.

 

[Douggg]

No, satan was cast down LONG before the 7th trump sounds. He also does not have another 3.5 years. When the last trump sounds, Christ returns and Armageddon will be fought, and satan will be imprisoned for a thousand years.

When Satan is cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9, he will have but a short time left, the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

Having great wrath, it says in the text of Revelation 12:12, woe to the inhabiters of the earth - the third woe.

There is an entire thread about the three woes...

the three woes

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! So, the last three trumpets of the seven...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Douggg]

What 'king of Israel? Nowhere in scripture have I seen any mention of a King in Israel, except when Jesus returns; Rev 19:16
As for the Jews, it will be way too late for any warning; they will be gone on the Day of the Lords fiery wrath. Matthew 8:12 Romans 2:18, +

"Anti" means instead of, or against. The Antichrist will be both instead of and against the true Christ - Jesus.

You have never heard about Jesus being the king of Israel, the king of the Jews ? What did the sign say that Pilate placed on Jesus's cross when He was crucified ?

You have never read Mark 15:31-32 ?

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

You have never read John 12:12-15 ?

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

You have never read John 5:43 ?

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

--------------------------------------------------------------

That blows your whole theory of a replacement nation of Christians called Beulah, doesn't it ? It will be the current nation of Israel, Jews, who will temporarily believe that the little horn prince that shall come is their long awaited king of Israel messiah.



Keraz,

Your timing of the two witnesses is off.
Your understanding of the Antichrist is off.
Your theory of a replacement nation of the current nation of Israel is off.
Your discounting of what Jews (Judaism) believe is off.
Your concept of the rapture is off.