Arguments and comments on the Post Trib position

[KUWN]

I wrote this in Word and then cut and paste. So, no need to complain about the structure.

Post Trib arguments and comments



A. The historical argument. There are several major arguments on which the

posttribulationist rests his case. The first of these is the historical argument. His position is that pretribulationism is a new doctrine, arising in the last hundred years, and therefore to be rejected because it is not apostolic. Several things are to be noted.

(1) Such an argument is an argument from silence. If the same line of reasoning were followed one would not accept the doctrine of justification by faith, for it was not clearly taught until the Reformation. The failure to discern the teaching of the Scripture does not nullify that teaching.

(2) The early church lived in the light of the belief in the imminent return of Christ. Their expectation was that Christ might return at any time. Pretribulationism is

the only position consistent with this doctrine of imminence. If an argument from

silence be followed, the weight of evidence favors the pretribulation view.



This whole concept of the progress of bible doctrine would be our strongest argument against the posttribulation rapturist who argues that the doctrine must be rejected because it was not clearly taught in the early church.



B. The argument against imminency. A second major argument of the

posttribulation rapturist is the argument against imminency. It is evident that if belief

in the imminent return of Christ is the Scriptural doctrine then the church must be

raptured before the signs of the tribulation period unfold. The adherent of that

position discounts all the Scriptural admonitions to the church to watch for Christ and bids us watch for signs. His position rests on the argument that the announcements of events such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the death of Peter, the imprisonment of Paul, and the announced program for the age as set forth in Matthew 28:19-20, together with the outlined course of the age. with its development of apostasy, all make an imminent return impossible; therefore the Lord could not come until these events had taken place. Such argument fails to see that the very men who received such announcements themselves believed that what would be the natural course of history could be interrupted by the translation of the believers out of the sphere in which history unfolds and held to the imminent return.

The doctrine of imminency is taught in Scripture in such passages as John 14:2-3; 1

Corinthians 1:7; Philippians 3:20-21; 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 4:16-17; 5:5-9; Titus 2:13; James 5:8-9; Revelation 3:10; 22:17-22. While the views of the early church can be studied later, several citations may be made at this point to show that the early church held to the doctrine of imminency.



In the Didache (AD 75 to 110) we read:

Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins

unloosed; but be you ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. This is clearly not the teaching of Post Trib.



Cyprian says: “It were a self-contradictory and incompatible thing for us, who pray that the kingdom of God may quickly come, to be looking for a long life here below…” These give evidence that the exhortation to watchfulness addressed to the church became the hope of the early church and that they lived in the light of the expectation of the imminent return of Christ. The testimony of the Scriptures and the evidence of the early church can not be denied.





C. The promise of tribulation. A third major argument of the posttribulation

rapturist is the argument based on the promise of tribulation given to the church.

Passages such as Luke 23:27-31; Matthew 24:9-11; Mark 13:9-13, which are addressed to Israel and promise them tribulation, are used to prove that the church will go through the tribulation period. In addition, passages such as John 15:18-19; and John 16:1-2, 33, which are addressed to the church, are also so used. Their argument is that in the light of such specific promises it is impossible to say that the church will be raptured prior to the tribulation period. Their argument is substantiated by citing the persecutions recorded in Acts into which the church came (Acts 8:1-3; 11:19; 14:22; Rom. 12:12) as being a partial fulfillment of those warnings.





1. In reply to this argument it is necessary to notice, first of all, that Scripture

abounds in promises that Israel will be brought into a time of purging to prepare them as a nation for the millennium to follow the advent of Messiah. However, since Israel is to be distinguished from the church in the economy of God, those scriptures which promise tribulation to Israel can not be made to teach that the church is to experience the tribulation period. Israel and the church are two distinct entities in the plan of God and must be so regarded. (The main truth regarding these position is that of one’s method of interpretation (literal, symbolic, etc.)

2. Further, it must be noticed that the term tribulation is used in several different

ways in Scripture. It is used in a nontechnical, non-eschatological sense in reference to any time of suffering or testing into which one goes. It is so used in Matthew 13:21; Mark 4:17; John 16:33; Romans 5:3; 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; Revelation 1:9. It is used in its technical or eschatological sense in reference to the whole period of the seven years of tribulation, as in Revelation 2:22 or Matthew 24:29. It is also used in reference to the last half of this seven-year period, as in Matthew 24:21. When the word tribulation is used in reference to the church, as in John 16:33, it is used in a nontechnical sense, in which the church is promised an age-long opposition from the god of this age, but it is not teaching that the church will be brought into the period technically known as the tribulation. Otherwise one would have to teach that the tribulation has already existed for over nineteen hundred years.



Since the posttribulation rapturist insists that the church is not only promised

tribulation, but is even now experiencing that tribulation, as has the church down

through the ages, he must give that period a different character from that set forth in the Scriptures. It can be shown in detail that the characterization of that period, according to the Scripture, is described by such words as wrath, judgment, indignation, trial, trouble, destruction. This essential characterization must be denied by the adherent to this position.


continued...

 

[KUWN]

The Passover was exactly in “the middle of the seventieth week,” or 486 1/2

years after “the commandment to RESTORE, and to build Jerusalem.” Christ, according to this theory, becomes the one who confirms the Covenant and in

the period of His ministry the great promises of Daniel 9:24 have already been

fulfilled.

1. In reply to this interpretation it can be noted that the six great areas of promise

in Daniel 9:24 are related to Daniel’s people and Daniel’s holy city, that is, related to

the nation Israel. These promises are the logical outgrowth of God’s covenants with

that nation. Israel as a nation has not yet experienced her national salvation. The church can not be now fulfilling these promises. Thus we must conclude that these areas are awaiting a future fulfillment.



2. Again, the “he” of Daniel 9:27 must have as its antecedent “the prince that shall

come” of the preceding verse. Because this one is related to the people who

destroyed the city and the sanctuary, that is the Romans, this one confirming the

covenant can not be Christ, but must be the man of sin, spoken of by Christ (Matt.

24:15), by Paul (2 Thess. 2), and John (Rev. 13), who will make a false covenant with

Israel. The fact that sacrifices and oblation continued after the death of Christ until the year 70 A.D. would point out the fact that it was not Christ who caused these sacrifices to terminate. It is interesting to note that the Lord, in that great eschatological passage dealing with the future of Israel (Matt. 24-25), speaks of a yet future fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy (Matt. 24:15) after His death.



3. It is of importance to note that the prophecies of the first sixty-nine weeks were

fulfilled literally. Thus a literal fulfillment of the seventieth week, both as to time and

events, is made necessary. Prophecy Scholar J. Walvoord writes:

“The important point is that the first sixty-nine weeks had a literal fulfillment, both as to details and as to chronology. In approaching the task of interpreting the

prophecy concerning the seventieth week, we must in all fairness to the principles

approved by the fulfillment of the sixty-nine weeks, expect a literal fulfillment of

the seventieth week both in its detail and in its chronology.”



Since the posttribulation rapture interpretation is out of harmony with the principle of literal interpretation, for the prophecies must be spiritually interpreted to have them fulfilled historically, it must be denied.



The Post trib argument takes on the form of a syllogism, the major premises being

(1) the Old Testament Scriptures prove that the resurrection of the Old Testament

saint is at the revelation of Christ, just prior to the millennial kingdom; the minor

premise being

(2) all Darbyists agree that the resurrection of the church synchronizes with the resurrection of Israel; hence, the conclusion is drawn

(3) therefore the resurrection of the church sets the time of the rapture as

posttribulational.

1. In reply to the conclusion it need only be pointed out that most present day pretribulation rapturists do not agree with the position of Darby that the

resurrection at the time of the rapture includes the Old Testament saints. It is

better to place the resurrection of these Old Testament saints at the time of the second advent. But, if one separates the resurrection of the church from the resurrection of Israel, there is no strength left in the post trib’s argument. Here is the corrected syllogism and makes the point clear:

(1) The Old Testament saints are raised after the tribulation;

(2) Darby says that Israel’s resurrection occurs before the tribulation with that of the church;

(3) therefore, Darby was wrong in respect to the time of Israel’s resurrection.

It does seem strange that a post trib, who argues that Darby is wrong so frequently, insists that he is infallible on this point as to the relation of Israel’s resurrection to that of the church.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Passover was exactly in “the middle of the seventieth week,” or 486 1/2

years after “the commandment to RESTORE, and to build Jerusalem.” Christ, according to this theory, becomes the one who confirms the Covenant and in

the period of His ministry the great promises of Daniel 9:24 have already been

fulfilled.

1. In reply to this interpretation it can be noted that the six great areas of promise

in Daniel 9:24 are related to Daniel’s people and Daniel’s holy city, that is, related to

the nation Israel. These promises are the logical outgrowth of God’s covenants with

that nation. Israel as a nation has not yet experienced her national salvation. The church can not be now fulfilling these promises. Thus we must conclude that these areas are awaiting a future fulfillment.



2. Again, the “he” of Daniel 9:27 must have as its antecedent “the prince that shall

come” of the preceding verse. Because this one is related to the people who

destroyed the city and the sanctuary, that is the Romans, this one confirming the

covenant can not be Christ, but must be the man of sin, spoken of by Christ (Matt.

24:15), by Paul (2 Thess. 2), and John (Rev. 13), who will make a false covenant with

Israel. The fact that sacrifices and oblation continued after the death of Christ until the year 70 A.D. would point out the fact that it was not Christ who caused these sacrifices to terminate. It is interesting to note that the Lord, in that great eschatological passage dealing with the future of Israel (Matt. 24-25), speaks of a yet future fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy (Matt. 24:15) after His death.



3. It is of importance to note that the prophecies of the first sixty-nine weeks were

fulfilled literally. Thus a literal fulfillment of the seventieth week, both as to time and

events, is made necessary. Prophecy Scholar J. Walvoord writes:

“The important point is that the first sixty-nine weeks had a literal fulfillment, both as to details and as to chronology. In approaching the task of interpreting the

prophecy concerning the seventieth week, we must in all fairness to the principles

approved by the fulfillment of the sixty-nine weeks, expect a literal fulfillment of

the seventieth week both in its detail and in its chronology.”



Since the posttribulation rapture interpretation is out of harmony with the principle of literal interpretation, for the prophecies must be spiritually interpreted to have them fulfilled historically, it must be denied.



The Post trib argument takes on the form of a syllogism, the major premises being

(1) the Old Testament Scriptures prove that the resurrection of the Old Testament

saint is at the revelation of Christ, just prior to the millennial kingdom; the minor

premise being

(2) all Darbyists agree that the resurrection of the church synchronizes with the resurrection of Israel; hence, the conclusion is drawn

(3) therefore the resurrection of the church sets the time of the rapture as

posttribulational.

1. In reply to the conclusion it need only be pointed out that most present day pretribulation rapturists do not agree with the position of Darby that the

resurrection at the time of the rapture includes the Old Testament saints. It is

better to place the resurrection of these Old Testament saints at the time of the second advent. But, if one separates the resurrection of the church from the resurrection of Israel, there is no strength left in the post trib’s argument. Here is the corrected syllogism and makes the point clear:

(1) The Old Testament saints are raised after the tribulation;

(2) Darby says that Israel’s resurrection occurs before the tribulation with that of the church;

(3) therefore, Darby was wrong in respect to the time of Israel’s resurrection.

It does seem strange that a post trib, who argues that Darby is wrong so frequently, insists that he is infallible on this point as to the relation of Israel’s resurrection to that of the church.

Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

 

[Davy]

I wrote this in Word and then cut and paste. So, no need to complain about the structure.

Post Trib arguments and comments


....

Your false premise just ain't... gonna' work. Anyone can make up a study that tries to debunk what others say about a doctrine that one prefers, and that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL BIBLE SCRIPTURE OF HOW THINGS REALLY ARE AS WRITTEN.

So go ahead, pour hot coals upon your head if you prefer to believe to men's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY which goes directly opposite of what Lord Jesus said below for when His coming to gather His Church will be...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Lord Jesus comes to gather His Church AFTER... the great tribulation, NOT PRIOR to it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus returns in fire and final Judgement (The End)

Then Acts 1 is a lie.
Your doctrine is just flat out poorly thought out.
What will you guys do with rev14?????
Tell is the " correct interpretation".

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your false premise just ain't... gonna' work. Anyone can make up a study that tries to debunk what others say about a doctrine that one prefers, and that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL BIBLE SCRIPTURE OF HOW THINGS REALLY ARE AS WRITTEN.

So go ahead, pour hot coals upon your head if you prefer to believe to men's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY which goes directly opposite of what Lord Jesus said below for when His coming to gather His Church will be...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Lord Jesus comes to gather His Church AFTER... the great tribulation, NOT PRIOR to it.

You posted A verse, that declares that Angels gather from heaven after the trib.
That points to the obvious pretrib rapture.
IOW ANGELS GATHER the saints ALREADY in heaven AFTER the trib to mount millions of white horses.
It's hilarious that you just placed the church in heaven during the trib where angels gather them up.


So when will you make a point rapture is postrib??????

Pssst...the rapture is Jesus gathering from earth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

A doctrine that by faith ...or just a notion... that the church goes through the trib..with out ANY VERSES????

HUH????

 

[Truth7t7]

Then Acts 1 is a lie.
Your doctrine is just flat out poorly thought out.
What will you guys do with rev14?????
Tell is the " correct interpretation".

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You posted A verse, that declares that Angels gather from heaven after the trib.
That points to the obvious pretrib rapture.
IOW ANGELS GATHER the saints ALREADY in heaven AFTER the trib to mount millions of white horses.
It's hilarious that you just placed the church in heaven during the trib where angels gather them up.


So when will you make a point rapture is postrib??????

Pssst...the rapture is Jesus gathering from earth.

Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven right now? John saw those souls of the dead in Christ in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4. Why do you assume that any reference to saints being in heaven refers to them having already been raptured?

 

[jeffweeder]

You posted A verse, that declares that Angels gather from heaven after the trib.
That points to the obvious pretrib rapture.
IOW ANGELS GATHER the saints ALREADY in heaven AFTER the trib to mount millions of white horses.
It's hilarious that you just placed the church in heaven during the trib where angels gather them up.


So when will you make a point rapture is postrib??????

Pssst...the rapture is Jesus gathering from earth.

Jesus descends from Heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ and resurrects them to a body like his glorious body.
The living in Christ are caught up together with them within the earth's atmosphere (air) with their glorious body also.

Why would the Angels gather those already with the Lord as he descends from Heaven?

1Thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

Do you still find it hilarious? The living do not proceed the dead in Christ into his presence or heaven until the dead in Christ are raised at his coming from heaven.

Jesus was right when he said we will have tribulation in this world. Paul knew that all too well didn't he. Ater enduring beatings, stoning's and whipping several times he lost his head.

How could he possibly get anyone to believe a pretrib rapture of those churches he helped to establish. Hilarious.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus descends from Heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ and resurrects them to a body like his glorious body.
The living in Christ are caught up together with them within the earth's atmosphere (air) with their glorious body also.

Why would the Angels gather those already with the Lord as he descends from Heaven?

1Thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

Do you still find it hilarious? The living do not proceed the dead in Christ into his presence or heaven until the dead in Christ are raised at his coming from heaven.

Jesus was right when he said we will have tribulation in this world. Paul knew that all too well didn't he. Ater enduring beatings, stoning's and whipping several times he lost his head.

How could he possibly get anyone to believe a pretrib rapture of those churches he helped to establish. Hilarious.

Lol
You just proved my point.
Thank you.




You guys work tirelessly to torture that bible to make it say something else.

Blame Jesus for telling you that AFTER THE TRIB angels gather FROM HEAVEN.

PSSSST .....THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN ARE GATHERED TO THE WHITE HORSES.
HOW DO YOU THINK THEY ARE CONGREGATED TO THAT LOCATION IN HEAVEN.

AHEM...ANGELS GATHER THEM ALREADY IN HEAVEN.
PRETRIB RAPTURE ONLY FITS

TELL IT TO JESUS.
I AM ONLY A REPORTER.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus descends from Heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ and resurrects them to a body like his glorious body.
The living in Christ are caught up together with them within the earth's atmosphere (air) with their glorious body also.

Why would the Angels gather those already with the Lord as he descends from Heaven?

1Thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

Do you still find it hilarious? The living do not proceed the dead in Christ into his presence or heaven until the dead in Christ are raised at his coming from heaven.

Jesus was right when he said we will have tribulation in this world. Paul knew that all too well didn't he. Ater enduring beatings, stoning's and whipping several times he lost his head.

How could he possibly get anyone to believe a pretrib rapture of those churches he helped to establish. Hilarious.

QUOTE
"Jesus was right when he said we will have tribulation in this world. Paul knew that all too well didn't he. Ater enduring beatings, stoning's and whipping several times he lost his head."

We all know tribulation is promised.

Are you say some trial you are going through is exactly comparable to the tribulation under the ac?????

Just plain ludicrous.

That postribber talking point is so tired and false.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Bingo.
Yep yep yep.
Acts 1 in no way can be transposed onto your verses.
Decisely points ONLY to a pretrib rapture!!!!
Thank you!!!!!

 

[Keraz]

NO RAPTURE
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and totally un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.
Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous peoples will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is depopulated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 and Zephaniah 1:14-18, describe it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people.
More at logostelos.info; 37 articles refuting the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bingo.
Yep yep yep.
Acts 1 in no way can be transposed onto your verses.
Decisely points ONLY to a pretrib rapture!!!!
Thank you!!!!!

I see that you still are only able to make claims that you're not able to back up with scripture. You don't even attempt to back them up with scripture except to make a vague reference to Acts 1 as if anything there supports pretrib (not even close). You think your words are on the same level as scripture, which is ludicrous. You can't be taken seriously. I hope you realize that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

NO RAPTURE
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and totally un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.
Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous peoples will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is depopulated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 and Zephaniah 1:14-18, describe it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people.
More at logostelos.info; 37 articles refuting the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory.

You shouldn't say "no rapture". That can be misleading. There will be a rapture, but not to heaven. The word rapture refers to being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord. And I know your actual point is not that there won't be a rapture, but that there won't be a rapture to heaven, which is correct. If there was going to be a rapture to heaven, then why does Paul say we will meet Him "in the air" instead of in heaven? If we were going to be raptured to heaven, then we would be gathered and caught up to meet Him there, not "in the air".

 

[Davy]

You shouldn't say "no rapture". That can be misleading. There will be a rapture, but not to heaven. The word rapture refers to being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord. And I know your actual point is not that there won't be a rapture, but that there won't be a rapture to heaven, which is correct. If there was going to be a rapture to heaven, then why does Paul say we will meet Him "in the air" instead of in heaven? If we were going to be raptured to heaven, then we would be gathered and caught up to meet Him there, not "in the air".

You're right on that point, that there is no rapture to Heaven. But not completely. I think what Keraz is mainly pointing to is the false pre-trib rapture theory that wrongly teaches the Church is raptured to Heaven to be with Jesus while the "great tribulation" is going on. That idea of course is false.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Lord Jesus did actually refer... to the gathering of the still alive saints on earth being "caught up" to... "heaven". And how does that link to 1 Thess.4:17 about their being "caught up" to Jesus in the "air"?

This is where I am constantly amazed at many of my Christian brethren that still do not yet understand about the future resurrection body type, a "spiritual body", which is also the type of body the "caught up" saints will be "changed" to also, according to Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 also.

1 Cor 15:49-52
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

The Greek for the word "air" in 1 Thess.4:17 means 'the breath'. What part of our being that God created us with would point to that idea of 'breath'?? Our spirit. So what Paul was actually referring to with being "caught up" to Christ in the "air" is about being 'changed' to the "spiritual body", and that type body is a 'heavenly' type body. It can live upon this earth, eat our food, etc. That will be the body type of the world to come.

Thus I see Christian brethren still thinking with their 'flesh' about this point of being "caught up" when Lord Jesus comes. Per Zechariah 14 and Acts 1, Jesus will return to earth, at the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from. But He nor us will be in flesh bodies, but spirit bodies. At some point, Jesus' raised flesh body was "quickened" to a Spirit body with which He went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel to them (1 Peter 3).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're right on that point, that there is no rapture to Heaven. But not completely. I think what Keraz is mainly pointing to is the false pre-trib rapture theory that wrongly teaches the Church is raptured to Heaven to be with Jesus while the "great tribulation" is going on. That idea of course is false.

Yes, that is obviously what he is saying is false. I'm simply saying we should be careful about saying there is no rapture at all, which is misleading. With the understanding that the word "rapture" simply refers to our being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord in the air after He descends from heaven. The idea that we are then taken to heaven after that is complete nonsense and not taught in scripture.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Lord Jesus did actually refer... to the gathering of the still alive saints on earth being "caught up" to... "heaven". And how does that link to 1 Thess.4:17 about their being "caught up" to Jesus in the "air"?

It doesn't say anything about being caught up to heaven, it talks about the elect being gathered from both the uttermost part of the earth, which refers to those who are alive and remain, and from the uttermost part of heaven, which refers to the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now.

This is where I am constantly amazed at many of my Christian brethren that still do not yet understand about the future resurrection body type, a "spiritual body", which is also the type of body the "caught up" saints will be "changed" to also, according to Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 also.

1 Cor 15:49-52
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV

Right. Some people think that the reference to a spiritual body refers to a non-physical or non-material body, but that isn't the case. Jesus was resurrected with a spiritual body. Paul contrasted the spiritual body we will have when we are changed with the natural body we have now.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul indicated that the spiritual body we will have when we're changed will be incorruptible, glorious and powerful in contrast to the natural body we have now which is corruptible, dishonorable and weak. Notice that he does not indicate that the natural body is physical or material and the spiritual body is not.

The Greek for the word "air" in 1 Thess.4:17 means 'the breath'. What part of our being that God created us with would point to that idea of 'breath'?? Our spirit. So what Paul was actually referring to with being "caught up" to Christ in the "air" is about being 'changed' to the "spiritual body", and that type body is a 'heavenly' type body. It can live upon this earth, eat our food, etc. That will be the body type of the world to come.

No, being caught up to meet the Lord "in the air" means to be literally caught up into the air in the earth's atmosphere to meet the Lord there. From blueletterbible.org, it shows this:



The Greek word aēr (Strong's G109) is also used in verses like these:


As you can see, the word is used to refer to the air or atmosphere around us, not our breath.

 

[Davy]

Yes, that is obviously what he is saying is false. I'm simply saying we should be careful about saying there is no rapture at all, which is misleading. With the understanding that the word "rapture" simply refers to our being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord in the air after He descends from heaven. The idea that we are then taken to heaven after that is complete nonsense and not taught in scripture.

I gathered that was your point. The only way I would disagree using the word 'rapture' is, that we need to explain where it came from, as it is not in the Greek New Testament. It comes from a Latin translation. Furthermore, the Pre-trib Rapture theory school misuses the word 'rapture', because they often do not include their false idea of 'pre-trib' with that word 'rapture', and that is what makes their theory false.

It doesn't say anything about being caught up to heaven, it talks about the elect being gathered from both the uttermost part of the earth, which refers to those who are alive and remain, and from the uttermost part of heaven, which refers to the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now.

Well, yes it does point to their being gathered to... heaven. You didn't finish reading it...

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Where it says "heaven" above, read heavenly dimension, or Paul's "image of the heavenly". That is what it is pointing to, Paul's "spiritual body" type body the caught up saints will be 'changed' to like he pointed to in 1 Cor.15:49-52.

Right. Some people think that the reference to a spiritual body refers to a non-physical or non-material body, but that isn't the case. Jesus was resurrected with a spiritual body. Paul contrasted the spiritual body we will have when we are changed with the natural body we have now.

Yet it actually is... an immaterial type body. It is one of Spirit, of that other dimension of existence. There's only 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word. Apostle Paul called them "image of the earthy" and "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15:49.

And Hebrews 11:3 reveals that this material world did not create itself, meaning matter did not create matter, which happens to agree with one of the main laws of physics, that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only change its state. In John 4, he said "God is a Spirit", and that means that other dimension of existence, the realm of Spirit, which is where material matter was created from. The realm of material matter is this material universe we live in, the planets, stars, solar systems, etc. But it is not... the realm of Spirit. That also means our individual 'spirit' which God also created us with, is non-material, not earthly. Instead, our spirit is of that other... dimension of reality, the heavenly.

What many brethren fail to realize per that from Bible Scripture, is how both... dimensions can exist together with the earth, in the same time and space. With the appearance of angels per God's Word, there is nothing that suggests they had to first put on a flesh body in order to appear in our earthly dimension. Some try... to force that idea, but nowhere in God's Word is such an idea even suggested. It should be common sense too, because like Lord Jesus suddenly appeared, and then disappeared among His disciples, with all the windows and doors closed, that is proof that He appeared in a different type body than a flesh one like ours.

And with the future world to come, God's Word declares these differences, that we will no longer experience hot or cold, sickness, hunger, nor even death. That certainly does not mean a flesh body like we have today. And what's funny, are the rich during this world trying to advance science into figuring out how to make their present flesh immortal. Not going to happen. When we die, we are done with these flesh vehicles, won't need them any more, as Paul even revealed that we, at present, have another body, not one made of flesh, but from God, eternal in the heavens (2 Corinthians 5). That is about our spirit body that is attached to our flesh shell presently. That is even how The Holy Spirit works through us. And when Isaiah fell to the ground when he saw God in the heavenly, and Isaiah thought he was dead, it was by Isaiah's spirit inside his flesh body how God gave him the vision (Isaiah 6).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I gathered that was your point. The only way I would disagree using the word 'rapture' is, that we need to explain where it came from, as it is not in the Greek New Testament. It comes from a Latin translation. Furthermore, the Pre-trib Rapture theory school misuses the word 'rapture', because they often do not include their false idea of 'pre-trib' with that word 'rapture', and that is what makes their theory false.

If people know what is being referenced when using that word, then it shouldn't be a problem to use it. Most people know what it means. It's a waste of time to quibble over what terms we use to describe our being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord when He comes.

Well, yes it does point to their being gathered to... heaven. You didn't finish reading it...

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Where it says "heaven" above, read heavenly dimension, or Paul's "image of the heavenly". That is what it is pointing to, Paul's "spiritual body" type body the caught up saints will be 'changed' to like he pointed to in 1 Cor.15:49-52.

You're the one not reading it carefully enough. They are being gathered FROM heaven, not TO heaven. The ones being gathered from heaven are the souls of the dead in Christ, which is what verses like 1 Thess 3:13 and 1 Thess 4:14 are referring to when they talk about saints coming from heaven with Jesus. Pretribs falsely think it's talking about saints with their changed bodies coming with Jesus, but that makes no sense since our bodies are not even changed until what is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17 happens.

Yet it actually is... an immaterial type body. It is one of Spirit, of that other dimension of existence. There's only 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word. Apostle Paul called them "image of the earthy" and "image of the heavenly" in 1 Cor.15:49.

Do you not think that Jesus's body was changed to be a spiritual body? Remember, the ntaural body, according to Paul, is corrupt, dishonorable and weak. That is not the kind of body Jesus had after His resurrection. He had a spiritual body that was incorruptible, glorious and powerful. And He could touch things and eat with it. But, He could also appear out of nowhere in a locked house with it. So, while it was a physical or material body, it was different than the bodies we have now, obviously, where we are limited by gravity and we can't just appear out of nowhere inside a locked house and such.

And Hebrews 11:3 reveals that this material world did not create itself, meaning matter did not create matter, which happens to agree with one of the main laws of physics, that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only change its state. In John 4, he said "God is a Spirit", and that means that other dimension of existence, the realm of Spirit, which is where material matter was created from. The realm of material matter is this material universe we live in, the planets, stars, solar systems, etc. But it is not... the realm of Spirit. That also means our individual 'spirit' which God also created us with, is non-material, not earthly. Instead, our spirit is of that other... dimension of reality, the heavenly.

What many brethren fail to realize per that from Bible Scripture, is how both... dimensions can exist together with the earth, in the same time and space. With the appearance of angels per God's Word, there is nothing that suggests they had to first put on a flesh body in order to appear in our earthly dimension. Some try... to force that idea, but nowhere in God's Word is such an idea even suggested. It should be common sense too, because like Lord Jesus suddenly appeared, and then disappeared among His disciples, with all the windows and doors closed, that is proof that He appeared in a different type body than a flesh one like ours.

And with the future world to come, God's Word declares these differences, that we will no longer experience hot or cold, sickness, hunger, nor even death. That certainly does not mean a flesh body like we have today. And what's funny, are the rich during this world trying to advance science into figuring out how to make their present flesh immortal. Not going to happen. When we die, we are done with these flesh vehicles, won't need them any more, as Paul even revealed that we, at present, have another body, not one made of flesh, but from God, eternal in the heavens (2 Corinthians 5). That is about our spirit body that is attached to our flesh shell presently. That is even how The Holy Spirit works through us. And when Isaiah fell to the ground when he saw God in the heavenly, and Isaiah thought he was dead, it was by Isaiah's spirit inside his flesh body how God gave him the vision (Isaiah 6).

I am not saying the spiritual body we have is the like the flesh body we have today. Obviously, it will be very different. But, don't act like you know exactly how it will be already because...

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.