Pre-Trib Dispensationalism IS False

[Davy]

Just because a doctrine of men is popular does NOT mean it is true per God's Word. There are many deceivers, and deceived, out in the world, and they make up a lot of brethren in the Churches.

One of the EASIEST Bible proofs that man's Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory is FALSE is the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture given by Lord Jesus Christ Himself showing that His future coming will be AFTER... the "great tribulation", NOT prior to it. So check it out for yourself if you don't believe He showed us that, I dare ya.

Now if you do check that out, what Lord Jesus showed in those Scriptures, but you STILL... refuse to accept what He said about His future coming AFTER the tribulation, because it would DEFLATE your emotional ball & chain of faith on a pre-trib rapture, then just imagine how much your emotional ball n' chain is gonna fall to the ground when Lord Jesus does... appear AFTER the coming "great tribulation", ESPECIALLY if you are found playing the spiritual harlot with the false-Messiah that comes first, playing Lord Jesus!

IF... you do not yet know that a false-Christ with SUPERNATURAL POWERS of great signs, wonders, and miracles to work on earth is coming FIRST, prior... to our Lord Jesus' return, then you had best get busy in study of God's Word for yourself and quit listening to deceivers and the deceived, and instead stay in God's written Word for yourself! The time today is not just 'short', but it is very, very, short! And that means that false-Messiah, or false-Christ, is soon to appear on the scene, in Jerusalem, on earth.

 

[The Light]

Just because a doctrine of men is popular does NOT mean it is true per God's Word.

I agree. However, the pretribulation rapture is certainly in God's Word. Do you not understand that God clearly says that He is coming in an hour that you think not.

There are many deceivers, and deceived, out in the world, and they make up a lot of brethren in the Churches.

And there are many that just plain do not understand Gods word that attack the Word of God in ignorance.

One of the EASIEST Bible proofs that man's Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory is FALSE is the Matthew 24:29-31
and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture given by Lord Jesus Christ Himself showing that His future coming will be AFTER... the "great tribulation", NOT prior to it. So check it out for yourself if you don't believe He showed us that, I dare ya.

The Lord obviously comes immediately after the tribulation. And He obviously comes is an hour that you think not.

Now if you do check that out, what Lord Jesus showed in those Scriptures, but you STILL... refuse to accept what He said about His future coming AFTER the tribulation, because it would DEFLATE your emotional ball & chain of faith on a pre-trib rapture, then just imagine how much your emotional ball n' chain is gonna fall to the ground when Lord Jesus does... appear AFTER the coming "great tribulation", ESPECIALLY if you are found playing the spiritual harlot with the false-Messiah that comes first, playing Lord Jesus!

A lot of empty words for those that do not understand that He is coming immediately after the tribulation and also coming in an hour that you think not.

IF... you do not yet know that a false-Christ with SUPERNATURAL POWERS of great signs, wonders, and miracles to work on earth is coming FIRST, prior... to our Lord Jesus' return, then you had best get busy in study of God's Word for yourself and quit listening to deceivers and the deceived, and instead stay in God's written Word for yourself!

What do the blind see? Why to do leave out so many scriptures that prove there is a pretrib rapture? Do you not understand the feasts of God?

The time today is not just 'short', but it is very, very, short! And that means that false-Messiah, or false-Christ, is soon to appear on the scene, in Jerusalem, on earth.

The false Christ which is soon to appear will not appear before the Church is in heaven. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Yeah, the rapture happens sometime after the anti-christ is revealed....

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

*The phrase ”Gathering together”
Strongs 1997 = from 1996; a complete collection; especially a Christian meeting (for worship): -- assembling (gathering) together.
Strongs 1996 = from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place: KJV -- gather (together).

*The phrase ”Falling Away”
Strongs 646 = feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"): KJV -- falling away, forsake.
Strongs 647 = neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce: KJV -- (writing of) divorcement.
Strongs 868 = from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: KJV -- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

*Same word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21 - so this is what the word means: many will forsake the Lord (speaking of those that were Christians but fall away)

Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed

This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct
where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power

Some claim the word translated “falling away” really means rapture… if that were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens and the anti-christ be revealed which it does NOT say.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

what He said about His future coming AFTER the tribulation

That's not the rapture.,.. that's His second coming

Two different events

 

[Douggg]

Yeah, the rapture happens sometime after the anti-christ is revealed....

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

*The phrase ”Gathering together”
Strongs 1997 = from 1996; a complete collection; especially a Christian meeting (for worship): -- assembling (gathering) together.
Strongs 1996 = from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place: KJV -- gather (together).

*The phrase ”Falling Away”
Strongs 646 = feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"): KJV -- falling away, forsake.
Strongs 647 = neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce: KJV -- (writing of) divorcement.
Strongs 868 = from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: KJV -- depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

*Same word is translated “forsake” in Acts 21:21 - so this is what the word means: many will forsake the Lord (speaking of those that were Christians but fall away)

Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed

This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct
where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power

Some claim the word translated “falling away” really means rapture… if that were true, then 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 would say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens and the anti-christ be revealed which it does NOT say.

The verses mean that the rapture could take place before the great falling away takes place. But the rapture must take place before the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin - by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The rapture could happen pre-70th week (i.e. the pre-trib misnomer view). Or it may not. But it has to happen before the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin.

 

[Keraz]

Any belief of a rapture removal to heaven, is false and cannot happen.
Taking His faithful peoples to heaven was and is; never part of God's plan.

We have the Great Commission, Matthew 28:20, - get on with that and don't be found slacking off when Jesus does Return.

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[The Light]

Yeah, the rapture happens sometime after the anti-christ is revealed....

More correctly......

Yeah, "A" rapture happens sometime after the Antichrist is revealed..........

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

*The phrase ”Gathering together”
Strongs 1997 = from 1996; a complete collection; especially a Christian meeting (for worship): -- assembling (gathering) together.
Strongs 1996 = from 1909 and 4863; to collect upon the same place: KJV -- gather (together).

This is Paul explaining to the people that they were not in the Day of the Lord. The people were troubled and thought they were in the Day of the Lord. Paul clarified that they had not missed the gathering because the Day of the Lord which is the day of vengeance cannot happen until there comes a falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

So Paul explained that they had not missed the gathering together.

The real question that needs to be addressed is what is the gathering and when does it occur.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering is from heaven and earth. Who is gathered from the earth? The twelve tribes across the earth. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. They are the ones on the earth during the tribulation. The Church is already in heaven. So at the gathering together, the Church comes out of heaven with the Lord and the seed of the woman, which are the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. Here is that harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

It is the Jews that are raptured from the earth immediately after the tribulation.................and BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. Those believers that are on earth during the tribulation are Jews and they are raptured at the 6th seal.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Definitions point to the rapture not happening until many who claim to be Christians fall away from the faith, and the anti-christ is revealed

Definitions point to "A" rapture happening after the falling of away and the Antichrist being revealed. Definitions also point to a coming when you think not.

This would mean the traditional pre-trib rapture view could not be correct

The pretrib view is correct. There are two raptures. The first is the Church raptured before the tribulation. The second is the 12 tribes across the earth being raptured at the 6th seal before the wrath of God.

When the one year wrath of God occurs, the Church and the twelve tribes across the earth are in heaven.

Those on earth during the wrath of God are the woman Israel, which has fled to a place of protection, the two witnesses and unbelievers.

where Christians are taken out before the anti-christ is revealed, but instead Christians will be here leading up to the start of the anti-christ coming to power

The Church is in heaven. This is the first harvest which is the grain harvest. Then part of Israel will have its eyes opened and there will be 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest which is the fruit harvest.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Just because a doctrine of men is popular does NOT mean it is true per God's Word. There are many deceivers, and deceived, out in the world, and they make up a lot of brethren in the Churches.

One of the EASIEST Bible proofs that man's Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory is FALSE is the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture given by Lord Jesus Christ Himself showing that His future coming will be AFTER... the "great tribulation", NOT prior to it. So check it out for yourself if you don't believe He showed us that, I dare ya.

Now if you do check that out, what Lord Jesus showed in those Scriptures, but you STILL... refuse to accept what He said about His future coming AFTER the tribulation, because it would DEFLATE your emotional ball & chain of faith on a pre-trib rapture, then just imagine how much your emotional ball n' chain is gonna fall to the ground when Lord Jesus does... appear AFTER the coming "great tribulation", ESPECIALLY if you are found playing the spiritual harlot with the false-Messiah that comes first, playing Lord Jesus!

IF... you do not yet know that a false-Christ with SUPERNATURAL POWERS of great signs, wonders, and miracles to work on earth is coming FIRST, prior... to our Lord Jesus' return, then you had best get busy in study of God's Word for yourself and quit listening to deceivers and the deceived, and instead stay in God's written Word for yourself! The time today is not just 'short', but it is very, very, short! And that means that false-Messiah, or false-Christ, is soon to appear on the scene, in Jerusalem, on earth.

Noah gathered pretrib
Lot gathered pretrib
Matt24 has one taken one left BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Noah never gathered postrib
Lot never gathered postrib.

The postrib workbook has the one taken one left as half the earth population saved, and half wicked.

That is hilarious

 

[The Light]

Noah gathered pretrib
Lot gathered pretrib

Lot gathered pre wrath

The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Matt24 has one taken one left BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Noah never gathered postrib
Lot never gathered postrib.

Lot gathers pre wrath.

There are two raptures. Noah is a picture of the Church. Lot is a picture of the 12 tribes being gathered before the Day of the Lord.

Those that get victory over the beast with the blood of Jesus during the tribulation are Jews as they sing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The postrib workbook has the one taken one left as half the earth population saved, and half wicked.

That is hilarious

Post trib can't even figure out they are post wrath. Additionally they have the Church going through the wrath of God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Lot gathered pre wrath

The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.



Lot gathers pre wrath.

There are two raptures. Noah is a picture of the Church. Lot is a picture of the 12 tribes being gathered before the Day of the Lord.

Those that get victory over the beast with the blood of Jesus during the tribulation are Jews as they sing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.



Post trib can't even figure out they are post wrath. Additionally they have the Church going through the wrath of God.

Show me Noah and Lot fitting your template.
Noah after 3.5 years of a world wide ruler and 4 horseman judgment, with power given to the world wide ruler to destroy Christians, then enters the ark.

Same with Lot.
You have painted yourself into a corner by claiming the words "wrath" and "tribulation" can not possibly overlap.

You have to assume the 4 horsemen have nothing to do with God and cannot possibly contain any wrath.
That is the basis of your assumption.
The ac is in power during the entire 7 yr trib.

If you do not understand the purpose of the trib, you will get it wrong.
The Jews are gathered MID TRIB....WHICH IS YOUR CUT OFF POINT.
That setting in Rev 14 is different than acts 1 and Matt 25.
Plus in romans 9 10 11 we see God regathers his Covenant Hebrews.
(That is Rev 14).
During the first half of the trib the ac kills all believers refusing the mark.
By the time your supposition after a postrib rapture comes around, there are no Christians left to rapture.
It even says "all take the mark, EVERY MAN, WOMAN,AND CHILD , not in the book.
Your theory is impossible.

Lot gathered pre wrath

The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.



Lot gathers pre wrath.

There are two raptures. Noah is a picture of the Church. Lot is a picture of the 12 tribes being gathered before the Day of the Lord.

Those that get victory over the beast with the blood of Jesus during the tribulation are Jews as they sing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.



Post trib can't even figure out they are post wrath. Additionally they have the Church going through the wrath of God.

"Those that get victory over the beast with the blood of Jesus during the tribulation are Jews as they sing the song of Moses."

That tells me you do not understand the purpose of the trib.
You are claiming all jews know Jesus.
The purpose of the Trib is "JACOBS TROUBLE"
The jews entering the trib are unconverted.
Rev 14 is that gathering, and it is mid trib right before the wrath is poured out.
THEY SEE THE MESSIAH AND are converted AT THAT TIME.
The church is already in heaven.
Acts 1
Matt 24
Matt25
All have the setting of the rapture.
Noah setting is pretrib, normal life, commerce
Same with lot and every rapture verse.

No postrib setting on ANY RAPTURE VERSE

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The verses mean that the rapture could take place before the great falling away takes place.

The verses say exactly the opposite of that. They say that the rapture must take place AFTER the great falling away takes place first.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The first thing to understand about this passage is that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" referenced in verse 1 is the event Paul calls "the day of Christ" or "the day of the Lord" in verse 2 and he refers to it as "that day" in verse 3. This should be obvious to anyone who reads the passage objectively.

So, what Paul said in this passage is that what has to happen first before the day that our Lord Jesus Christ comes and we're gathered to Him is "a falling away" and also "that man of sin be revealed". The idea that the rapture has to occur before the falling away is not indicated in the text whatsoever.

But the rapture must take place before the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin - by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

What are you basing this on? Show it in the text itself. I don't see that at all. Instead, it indicates that the man of sin has to be revealed first before the rapture takes place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Noah gathered pretrib
Lot gathered pretrib
Matt24 has one taken one left BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Noah never gathered postrib
Lot never gathered postrib.

The postrib workbook has the one taken one left as half the earth population saved, and half wicked.

That is hilarious

What's hilarious is that you define the terms pretrib and postrib differently than almost everyone else. When you say Noah was gathered pretrib, you really mean He was gathered before God's wrath came by way of the flood. Others, like me, who refer to pretrib are not talking about pretrib in terms of the rapture not occurring before God's wrath comes down. Instead, we are talking about the rapture not occurring before a time period of increased deception and wickedness and increased persecution of believers takes place.

So, you need to learn what others are talking about when using those terms instead of defining those terms your own way and expecting everyone else to define them the way you do. You end up mocking what others believe simply because you don't understand they are defining these terms differently than you are while they agree that the rapture occurs before Christ's wrath comes down. Now, that is hilarious that you can't even recognize that.

In the case of Noah and his family being gathered, it was just before "the flood came and destroyed them all". Likewise, we will be gathered to Christ "in the air" before He destroys all of His enemies. That's why He said this:

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So, Noah and his family gathered onto the ark first, and then God's wrath came and destroyed everyone else. Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." What He meant by that is that just as Noah and his family were first gathered on to the ark before the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers, the church will be gathered to Christ first and then Jesus will proceed to destroy all of His enemies. As is illustrated in this passage by Paul:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[The Light]

Show me Noah and Lot fitting your template.
Noah after 3.5 years of a world wide ruler
and 4 horseman judgment, with power given to the world wide ruler to destroy Christians, then enters the ark.

The Church will be in heaven before the world wide ruler. The rapture of the Church will usher in world government as the world will have to band together because of the lie that aliens have come.

Same with Lot.
You have painted yourself into a corner by claiming the words "wrath" and "tribulation" can not possibly overlap.

They do not overlap. Scripture clearly says immediately after the tribulation Christ will come and then the wrath of God will begin. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This tells us that Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. Then comes wrath.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
There it is...........right there. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. This is just simple logic. We see WHEN the tribulation is over. It's over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.

You have to assume the 4 horsemen have nothing to do with God and cannot possibly contain any wrath.
That is the basis of your assumption.

The 4 horsemen is not the wrath of God.............it is the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The ac is in power during the entire 7 yr trib.

First off there is not a 7 year tribulation. Secondly there is no scripture that says that the Antichrist is in power for 7 years. It says that he confirms a covenant for one week. The one week covenant is made with many and then at a later time he confirms that one week covenant, which strengthens it.

If you do not understand the purpose of the trib, you will get it wrong.
The Jews are gathered MID TRIB....WHICH IS YOUR CUT OFF POINT.

This is incorrect. The Jews are gathered at the end of the tribulation, at the 6th seal. Then Gods wrath, the one year Day of the Lord, day of vengeance begins after the 7th seal is opened.

That setting in Rev 14 is different than acts 1 and Matt 25.

Exactly.

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal. It is seen in Matthew 24 immediately after the tribulation. Which is before the 7th seal wrath of God.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is the second coming..........when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He is seen in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect which are the believing Jews. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. Then toward the end of wrath Jesus returns for Armageddon. Then at the seventh trumpet He sets up His kingdom on the earth. This is where His feet touch the mount of Olives which is the 2nd Advent, seen in Acts 1.

Plus in romans 9 10 11 we see God regathers his Covenant Hebrews.
(That is Rev 14).

Exactly. Revelation 14 is the second harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. The elect are the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

During the first half of the trib the ac kills all believers refusing the mark.

I can go with that as long as you understand that the tribulation is not 7 years long.

By the time your supposition after a postrib rapture comes around, there are no Christians left to rapture.

First off, the Church is in heaven before the tribulation begins. Secondly it the Jews that the dragon goes after when He cannot get to the woman Israel that is in her place of protection.

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And if the days were not cut short, there would be no flesh alive to be raptured to heaven. For the elect's sake the days are cut short.
Matthew 24
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It even says "all take the mark, EVERY MAN, WOMAN,AND CHILD , not in the book.
Your theory is impossible.

How are you possibly concluding this. Of course everyone takes the mark that is not in the book. How does that fact make what I'm saying incorrect.

"Those that get victory over the beast with the blood of Jesus during the tribulation are Jews as they sing the song of Moses."

That tells me you do not understand the purpose of the trib.
You are claiming all jews know Jesus.

Whoa, whoa.........where do I claim that all Jews know Jesus??????????????????????????????

Those in heaven at the 6th seal...........the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 and Matthew 24 are singing the song of Moses. Since they are in heaven they are obviously know Jesus.

Additionally...........the woman, Israel, that has fled to a place of protection prepared for her will be on earth during the wrath of God. But they won't experience wrath.

The purpose of the Trib is "JACOBS TROUBLE"
The jews entering the trib are unconverted.

Exactly. But when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture of the Church before the tribulation, part of Israel will have its eyes opened.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Note that I said the Church is raptured before the tribulation.............I did not say before the 7 years.

 

[The Light]

Rev 14 is that gathering, and it is mid trib right before the wrath is poured out.

No sir. Rev 14 is the gathering immediately after the tribulation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

THEY SEE THE MESSIAH AND are converted AT THAT TIME.
The church is already in heaven.
Acts 1
Matt 24
Matt25
All have the setting of the rapture.
Noah setting is pretrib, normal life, commerce
Same with lot and every rapture verse.

No postrib setting on ANY RAPTURE VERSE

Noah entered the ark on the first day of seven. We know Noah entered, the ark with all the animals on that first day. But we do not know what day the Lord shut the ark door.

As for Lot, the VERY DAY Lot left Sodom destruction came.
Luke 14
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

I would have to think those that were eating and drinking have the mark. The dragon is after the seed of the woman. They are the ones being killed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What's hilarious is that you define the terms pretrib and postrib differently than almost everyone else. When you say Noah was gathered pretrib, you really mean He was gathered before God's wrath came by way of the flood. Others, like me, who refer to pretrib are not talking about pretrib in terms of the rapture not occurring before God's wrath comes down. Instead, we are talking about the rapture not occurring before a time period of increased deception and wickedness and increased persecution of believers takes place.

So, you need to learn what others are talking about when using those terms instead of defining those terms your own way and expecting everyone else to define them the way you do. You end up mocking what others believe simply because you don't understand they are defining these terms differently than you are while they agree that the rapture occurs before Christ's wrath comes down. Now, that is hilarious that you can't even recognize that.

In the case of Noah and his family being gathered, it was just before "the flood came and destroyed them all". Likewise, we will be gathered to Christ "in the air" before He destroys all of His enemies. That's why He said this:

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So, Noah and his family gathered onto the ark first, and then God's wrath came and destroyed everyone else. Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." What He meant by that is that just as Noah and his family were first gathered on to the ark before the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers, the church will be gathered to Christ first and then Jesus will proceed to destroy all of His enemies. As is illustrated in this passage by Paul:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Show me the trib period that Noah was in.


The ac
The horsemen.
Etc.

Remember Jesus words with Lot and Noah.
NORMAL LIFE
COMMERCE
NO TRIBULATION.

PSSSSST...you need a horrible supernatural tribulation period DURING AND BEFORE noah enters ark.
That is your model and Jesus destroys it.

All because you can not discern the 7 yr trib.
With the last half horrible wrath.

That Noah dynamic by Jesus, CLEARLY is against you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No sir. Rev 14 is the gathering immediately after the tribulation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Noah entered the ark on the first day of seven. We know Noah entered, the ark with all the animals on that first day. But we do not know what day the Lord shut the ark door.

As for Lot, the VERY DAY Lot left Sodom destruction came.
Luke 14
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

I would have to think those that were eating and drinking have the mark. The dragon is after the seed of the woman. They are the ones being killed.

Ok
1) you do no include and do not understand first fruits.( 144 JEWISH FIRSTFRUITS)
You are not aware that we would have to have a JEWISH MAIN HARVEST?????
How can so many not actually read Rev 14??????
2) Rev 14 IN NO WAY fits you " all the tribes shall mourn, and Jesus coming in great glory.
Have you actually read Rev 14?

Jesus sits on a cloud with a sickle.
You turned it into Jesus coming on horses in warrior mode.( Rev 19)
In no way does that even begin to fit.

Look, you do not understand the Jewish gathering at all.
Romans 9 10 11.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Church will be in heaven before the world wide ruler. The rapture of the Church will usher in world government as the world will have to band together because of the lie that aliens have come.


They do not overlap. Scripture clearly says immediately after the tribulation Christ will come and then the wrath of God will begin. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. This tells us that Jesus comes at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. Then comes wrath.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
There it is...........right there. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. This is just simple logic. We see WHEN the tribulation is over. It's over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.


The 4 horsemen is not the wrath of God.............it is the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

First off there is not a 7 year tribulation. Secondly there is no scripture that says that the Antichrist is in power for 7 years. It says that he confirms a covenant for one week. The one week covenant is made with many and then at a later time he confirms that one week covenant, which strengthens it.


This is incorrect. The Jews are gathered at the end of the tribulation, at the 6th seal. Then Gods wrath, the one year Day of the Lord, day of vengeance begins after the 7th seal is opened.


Exactly.

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal. It is seen in Matthew 24 immediately after the tribulation. Which is before the 7th seal wrath of God.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is the second coming..........when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He is seen in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect which are the believing Jews. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. Then toward the end of wrath Jesus returns for Armageddon. Then at the seventh trumpet He sets up His kingdom on the earth. This is where His feet touch the mount of Olives which is the 2nd Advent, seen in Acts 1.


Exactly. Revelation 14 is the second harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. The elect are the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.


I can go with that as long as you understand that the tribulation is not 7 years long.

First off, the Church is in heaven before the tribulation begins. Secondly it the Jews that the dragon goes after when He cannot get to the woman Israel that is in her place of protection.

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And if the days were not cut short, there would be no flesh alive to be raptured to heaven. For the elect's sake the days are cut short.
Matthew 24
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


How are you possibly concluding this. Of course everyone takes the mark that is not in the book. How does that fact make what I'm saying incorrect.


Whoa, whoa.........where do I claim that all Jews know Jesus??????????????????????????????

Those in heaven at the 6th seal...........the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 and Matthew 24 are singing the song of Moses. Since they are in heaven they are obviously know Jesus.

Additionally...........the woman, Israel, that has fled to a place of protection prepared for her will be on earth during the wrath of God. But they won't experience wrath.




Exactly. But when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture of the Church before the tribulation, part of Israel will have its eyes opened.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Note that I said the Church is raptured before the tribulation.............I did not say before the 7 years.

"""Additionally...........the woman, Israel, that has fled to a place of protection prepared for her will be on earth during the wrath of God. But they won't experience wrath"""

Again you do not understand
Trib
Wrath
Jewish gathering
Or Rev 14.

The woman ushered to safety is during the first part of the trib

Rev 14 deals with the woman before thecwrath.
Because you do not understand Rev 14, you are getting stuff wrong.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No sir. Rev 14 is the gathering immediately after the tribulation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Noah entered the ark on the first day of seven. We know Noah entered, the ark with all the animals on that first day. But we do not know what day the Lord shut the ark door.

As for Lot, the VERY DAY Lot left Sodom destruction came.
Luke 14
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

I would have to think those that were eating and drinking have the mark. The dragon is after the seed of the woman. They are the ones being killed.

1 wrath ALWAYS HAS TRIBULATION.
EVERY SINGLE TIME.
SEE this is how we know you are confusing trib and wrath.
There was no reason for Jesus to consult anyone on if he could call the 7 yr tribulation something else.
Jesus had no reason to make it fit your doctrine.
Matt 24 is in fact the coming on white horses.
Your verse DECLARES a warrior coming in judgement.
You torture it to fit something else.
You have Jesus on a cloud holding a sickle transposed onto Jesus on millions of horses coming in war and judgement.
Totally off my friend.
You need to go back and see that deal in NO WAY fits.

 

[rebuilder 454]

More correctly......

Yeah, "A" rapture happens sometime after the Antichrist is revealed..........


This is Paul explaining to the people that they were not in the Day of the Lord. The people were troubled and thought they were in the Day of the Lord. Paul clarified that they had not missed the gathering because the Day of the Lord which is the day of vengeance cannot happen until there comes a falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

So Paul explained that they had not missed the gathering together.

The real question that needs to be addressed is what is the gathering and when does it occur.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering is from heaven and earth. Who is gathered from the earth? The twelve tribes across the earth. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. They are the ones on the earth during the tribulation. The Church is already in heaven. So at the gathering together, the Church comes out of heaven with the Lord and the seed of the woman, which are the 12 tribes across the earth are gathered from the earth. Here is that harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

It is the Jews that are raptured from the earth immediately after the tribulation.................and BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. Those believers that are on earth during the tribulation are Jews and they are raptured at the 6th seal.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.




Definitions point to "A" rapture happening after the falling of away and the Antichrist being revealed. Definitions also point to a coming when you think not.


The pretrib view is correct. There are two raptures. The first is the Church raptured before the tribulation. The second is the 12 tribes across the earth being raptured at the 6th seal before the wrath of God.

When the one year wrath of God occurs, the Church and the twelve tribes across the earth are in heaven.

Those on earth during the wrath of God are the woman Israel, which has fled to a place of protection, the two witnesses and unbelievers.


The Church is in heaven. This is the first harvest which is the grain harvest. Then part of Israel will have its eyes opened and there will be 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest which is the fruit harvest.

I agree.

Could be we only disagree on your placement of Noah and Lot