Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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APAK

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I don’t think anyone is desperate at proving the validity of the trinity, or the non validity of the trinity, we’re all just discussing the subject matter.

I don’t think either way can be proved, it’s just interesting to discuss from all points of view using scripture.

That’s my opinion anyway.
Hopefully, given more time and study in the holy writ and lead in the Spirit will convince you differently, and drastically change your current opinion RJ. It was a lightning bolt moment for me when I knew I was being led astray for maybe only a few years. Nevertheless it was a life-changing event for me when the difference was mad known to me. My eyes were opened up for sure, and out of the foggy stupor that I see most people still in....The Trinity is dead wrong RJ. It can and does draw folks away for the true one God we (should be) worship(ping).

Have a great day RJ..going to storm here soon
 
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Ritajanice

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I would never presume to limit the almighty Sovereign God's creative capability.

"Seed" is a euphemism in Scripture for sperm. Some claim Mary was merely a surrogate and the seed of God never came to her egg. There is evidence to support this. Blood on Shroud of Turin Has Only 23 Chromosomes.
Seed is the Living Holy Spirit...that’s what is placed in us when our spirit becomes Born Again..

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God....as he’s indwelling our spirit...

It’s certainly a difficult one for me to understand how God Got Mary pregnant.

Did God just plant his seed in Mary womb, then it just started to grow.

I mean the Spirit planted his seed into our hearts/spirit, then it starts to grow..it’s like, God prepares our heart to receive his spirit, ...then once planted , starts to grow, plus we all grow at different rates....and we are all different parts of the vine/ body aren’t we?


[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

says “Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.”



Just my thoughts.
 
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Ritajanice

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Aren’t all the Born Again growing up to become more and more like Jesus, aren’t we his representatives?

I’ve been a poor one at times, yet, isn’t that all part of God growing us?
He started a work in us and as his word says, will bring it to completion.....he’s always working in us, isn’t he?

In fact he never stops working in us....at the moment I feel he’s forgotten me in a situation, then I hear, don’t go by feelings, what does Gods word say,lol.

We’re all part of the Body of Christ and we all need fellowship with each other, I’d go crazy if I never got fellowship with you guys....the ways of the world are dead boring to us, all we want to do is talk God!!

1 Corinthians 12:12-27​

King James Version​

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 
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APAK

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Seed is the Living Holy Spirit...that’s what is placed in us when our spirit becomes Born Again..

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God....as he’s indwelling our spirit...

It’s certainly a difficult one for me to understand how God Got Mary pregnant.

Did God just plant his seed in Mary womb, then it just started to grow.

I mean the Spirit planted his seed into our hearts/spirit, then it starts to grow..it’s like, God prepares our heart to receive his spirit, ...then once planted , starts to grow, plus we all grow at different rates....and we are all different parts of the vine/ body aren’t we?


[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

says “Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.”



Just my thoughts.
I see we are speaking of the seed as applied to two different areas: Christ's birth and then the seed given to all new believers with Christ's spirit at rebirth.

This planted seed does have one thing in common, the Spirit of God's involvement; and two functions in this case and discussion, to produce new life, one for Christ and one for all genuine believers.
 
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Ritajanice

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I see we are speaking of the seed as applied to two different areas: Christ's birth and then the seed given to all new believers with Christ's spirit at rebirth.

This planted seed does have one thing in common, the Spirit of God's involvement; and two functions in this case and discussion, to produce new life, one for Christ and one for all genuine believers.
See how we love talking God, Brother.

Can’t beat it can we!!..God morning, noon and night ,lol.
 
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David in NJ

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Let's take a moment to examine John 1:30. John is a witness and he is testifying of the prophet they were expecting (v21). He says of this expected prophet
A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am

Why denigrate God incarnate if he is merely a man, who is the expected prophet? Also, it is hugely lacking in humility for John to compare himself to God (incarnate). Sure, he says this man, this expected prophet, is greater than him but he is directly comparing one man to another man. He is not comparing a man to God incarnate as trinitarians demand 1:1 to mean.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's take a moment to examine John 1:34 in light of trinitarians demand to interpret John 1:1 imbued with trinitarian significance.
I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One OF God

Why add the words son OF or the Chosen One OF? Why not simply says he is God? Because he is NOT God but OF God. Language Usage. The reason you say something is yours is because it is yours. The reason you say something is OF a thing is because it is not that thing but belongs to that thing, e.g., Trump of Mar-a-Lago.

These verses show the desperation trinitarians have to impose trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text. It's absurd to claim in the same chapter that Jesus is a man Chosen by God to be the expected prophet and God at the same time.
Why denigrate God incarnate if he is merely a man
FATHER - God offered Himself in His SON so that you could be washed from the sins that you are currently trapped under and cannot get out from.

SON - God offered Himself as a man to show man the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE

HOLY SPIRIT - God offered Himself so that man can be filled with CHRIST by the Holy Spirit and thereby become One with God


This is the MOST SPECTACULAR WONDER of all of Creation, which you are fighting against.

The Lord Says to @Wrangler: "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
 
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APAK

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See how we love talking God, Brother.

Can’t beat it can we!!..God morning, noon and night ,lol.
well, we are done now with all the formalities I see....so expect tougher queries and comments in the future RJ....hlo:gd
 
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face2face

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Such hard work for you to ignore all the scriptures that directly state, without equivocation, that all things were created by God’s Word, His Son.
From this, you would agree that all those things in Hebrews were already held by the Son and were not actually an inheritance, correct?

Rather than your usual throw away comments it would be good to hear some clarity on this.

F2F
 

APAK

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FATHER - God denigrated Himself so that you could be washed from the sins that you are currently trapped under and cannot get out from.

SON - God denigrated Himself as a man to show man the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE

HOLY SPIRIT - God denigrated Himself as a man so that man can be filled with CHRIST by the Holy Spirit and thereby become One with God


This is the MOST SPECTACULAR WONDER of all of Creation, which you are fighting against.

The Lord Says to @Wrangler: "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
It's astonishing how you and your fellow Triuners, go to great lengths to grip on with dear life, to sustain this Triune pagan model you worship that does not exist in reality. Adding creative invalid non-scriptural, new reasons for this pagan model to exist does not constitute any real truth either. You apply some truth by mixing it in with the common usual lies. In this case, for one, that God denigrated himself somehow. No, it is man and evil spirits who denigrate God, who is the Father, and also denigrate his Son. Although the Son did denigrate himself for other obvious reasons.

And so now you think the Father died on the Cross and by doing so, therefore denigrated himself. And I'm not trapped in any sins today. Maybe you are...?

And your second line for the Son.

You do know what you are actually saying about the Son, and yes who actually did denigrate himself because he was a created human being and man, not that he was some demi-god as the Greek would agree he might have been. He did it for his love of his God and us. He is the way, to the Father, who is God, who is truth and the only way to immortal life, right? You knew this already? They are not just catchy words to pull out every once in a while and apply them to any situation.

And again the (holy) Spirit of God is the composition and form of God himself who never denigrated himself(personified)/itself for anyone for any purpose. It was by the corrupted elements of his creation.

And of course you believe in not one Spirit of God, but two, the so-called other forced separate person, the holy spirit.
 

face2face

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I believe it would be beneficial to review certain members here to determine whether they are adequately equipped for online discussions regarding the Word of God.

J.
I agree. Perhaps a good first step would be to focus less on others' findings and works, and more on your own efforts in the Word! I’m tired of seeing poorly formatted Greek and Hebrew posts, along with an overemphasis on grammar and syntax. Could we see more contextual analysis with deeper connections between the Old and New Testaments? Could you follow the example of the Master and the Apostles, who drew on a monotheistic understanding? For example, when the Apostle John quotes Genesis 1:1, maybe he wanted you to reflect on the spiritual insight into what an all-powerful God was doing through a submissive and obedient Son?

@Wrangler @APAK - Unless someone has a sound knowledge of the OT writings the Gospel of John is wasted on them!

Throughout this discussion, Johann has repeatedly shown his lack of understanding of the Old Testament, particularly in how Christ is the fulfillment of it in every way.

Unfortunately, his mind is so consumed with the details and terminology of creedal language that he is unable to perceive the truth—Biblical truth. He is a "Jot & Title" believer yet the weightier matters of the Gospel are lost on him.

Bible phrases like "Haven’t you read what David did..." or "Haven’t you read..." "It is written in the Prophets" or "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing..." "Scripture cannot be set aside..."

What I received instead were links to Council Creeds, acknowledging that his beliefs are based on the formulated doctrines of men, rooted in religious traditions.

Yes, God is undoubtedly more profound than our mortal minds can grasp, but the Trinity is at best an illogical and flawed theory, unfortunately held by the majority of Christians who have neither critically examined their Bibles nor the dogma inherited from their creeds.

We find nowhere in the Gospels, nor in the preaching of the apostles in Acts, nor the apostolic epistles nor the first century writings of Clement, Polycarp or the Didache, nor even in most of the Christian writers up to the 4th Century do we read a clear explication of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as a Trinity. Instead we have increasing confusion as Christian philosophy—redolent with pre-Christian neo-Platonic concepts—blurred the identity and nature of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The resulting political schism gave birth to the Nicene and Athanasian creeds. This strange, convoluted, and occasionally violent path does not reflect the calm theological maturity of the early church, guided into all wisdom by the Holy Spirit.

Hopefully, those who are less convinced by its confusion can distance themselves from its contradictions and grasp the truth with both hands!

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-14

You all do well to heed what God has achieved in Christ Jesus!

F2F
 
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David in NJ

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It's astonishing how you and your fellow Triuners, go to great lengths to grip on with dear life, to sustain this Triune pagan model you worship that does not exist in reality. Adding creative invalid non-scriptural, new reasons for this pagan model to exist does not constitute any real truth either. You apply some truth by mixing it in with the common usual lies. In this case, for one, that God denigrated himself somehow. No, it is man and evil spirits who denigrate God, who is the Father, and also denigrate his Son. Although the Son did denigrate himself for other obvious reasons.

And so now you think the Father died on the Cross and by doing so, therefore denigrated himself. And I'm not trapped in any sins today. Maybe you are...?

And your second line for the Son.

You do know what you are actually saying about the Son, and yes who actually did denigrate himself because he was a created human being and man, not that he was some demi-god as the Greek would agree he might have been. He did it for his love of his God and us. He is the way, to the Father, who is God, who is truth and the only way to immortal life, right? You knew this already? They are not just catchy words to pull out every once in a while and apply them to any situation.

And again the (holy) Spirit of God is the composition and form of God himself who never denigrated himself(personified)/itself for anyone for any purpose. It was by the corrupted elements of his creation.

And of course you believe in not one Spirit of God, but two, the so-called other forced separate person, the holy spirit.
Why is it you choose to fight against the LORD as did the monotheistic atheists who cried: "crucify Him crucify Him"

the Angels sing HOLY HOLY HOLY = 3 times Spoken as Elohim is FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT

Why are you against the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = 3 times Spoken

Genesis = Elohim is PLURAL = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = 3 times Spoken

GOSPEL = Elohim 3 times Spoken = John 14:15
“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Salvation and the Holy Spirit is only given to those who LOVE the LORD Jesus Christ

Dear @APAK = What will be the Judgment of those who oppose the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE ???
 

ProDeo

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I agree F2F that the common underlining spiritual logic and foundation of such scripture and intent in this exchange of this post is that 'our great God' represents strictly God's agent, representing God, aka Jesus the Christ. And it is of course the his agent is the one who will eventually return the Kingdom to his Father, our great God, and not the Father himself.

Just curious about your opinion on John 3:13, do you like F2F also agree that - Christ did not literally descend from heaven! ?
 

APAK

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@Ritajanice ...yes RJ
Trinitarians do believe that God, Jesus the Son, the Holy Spirit all have the same one nature, one spirit, or one substance. And here's why they also had/have to hide a nasty secret in the process, in order for their model to be more buoyant as it is under water already, and they do not know it.

They believe they, all 3 persons, all have the same or share the same spirit if you can imagine that.

And since their model of worship is composed of 3 unique persons as the one divine God, co-equal in all things with each other, they cannot have the Son of God parading around saying or having folks believe he was a human being with a human nature. They substitute or hide this thorny distraction by constantly using the term 'the humanity of Jesus.'

You see if they say that Jesus had a human nature and also a divine nature, their model would instantly 'fall apart. They would then have 4 persons instead of 3 persons in their one God. They would have 3 divine natures and one human nature in the mix. So then they could not be all of one divine spirit or of one substance anymore. They deleted the Son's human nature component altogether back in the 4th century AD, and most folks still believe in this other Jesus not of the Bible.
 

APAK

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I agree. Perhaps a good first step would be to focus less on others' findings and works, and more on your own efforts in the Word! I’m tired of seeing poorly formatted Greek and Hebrew posts, along with an overemphasis on grammar and syntax. Could we see more contextual analysis with deeper connections between the Old and New Testaments? Could you follow the example of the Master and the Apostles, who drew on a monotheistic understanding? For example, when the Apostle John quotes Genesis 1:1, maybe he wanted you to reflect on the spiritual insight into what an all-powerful God was doing through a submissive and obedient Son?

@Wrangler @APAK - Unless someone has a sound knowledge of the OT writings the Gospel of John is wasted on them!

Throughout this discussion, Johann has repeatedly shown his lack of understanding of the Old Testament, particularly in how Christ is the fulfillment of it in every way.

Unfortunately, his mind is so consumed with the details and terminology of creedal language that he is unable to perceive the truth—Biblical truth. He is a "Jot & Title" believer yet the weightier matters of the Gospel are lost on him.

Bible phrases like "Haven’t you read what David did..." or "Haven’t you read..." "It is written in the Prophets" or "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing..." "Scripture cannot be set aside..."

What I received instead were links to Council Creeds, acknowledging that his beliefs are based on the formulated doctrines of men, rooted in religious traditions.

Yes, God is undoubtedly more profound than our mortal minds can grasp, but the Trinity is at best an illogical and flawed theory, unfortunately held by the majority of Christians who have neither critically examined their Bibles nor the dogma inherited from their creeds.

We find nowhere in the Gospels, nor in the preaching of the apostles in Acts, nor the apostolic epistles nor the first century writings of Clement, Polycarp or the Didache, nor even in most of the Christian writers up to the 4th Century do we read a clear explication of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as a Trinity. Instead we have increasing confusion as Christian philosophy—redolent with pre-Christian neo-Platonic concepts—blurred the identity and nature of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The resulting political schism gave birth to the Nicene and Athanasian creeds. This strange, convoluted, and occasionally violent path does not reflect the calm theological maturity of the early church, guided into all wisdom by the Holy Spirit.

Hopefully, those who are less convinced by its confusion can distance themselves from its contradictions and grasp the truth with both hands!

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-14

You all do well to heed what God has achieved in Christ Jesus!

F2F
It all about the Triunity in 'all things,' nothing else matters or is of no consequence to them F2F. Is this the way a believer is meant to worship his one God? The credo kid still is living in the 4th century, with one exception, he is one of the many, who also wear spiritual-blinders, where men's power and politics trod, no, stomped all over the true worship of the one God, and then true Christianity began to decline or dissipate and fade in the background as an after-thought.

It is even worst today as over 96 percent officially live their life depending on other carnal, godless men to get them to paradise. What a scary notion.
 
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face2face

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@Wrangler @APAK

You may already be familiar with what I’m about to show you, so please forgive me if I’m repeating things you already believe and know.

I'm trying to show how important the record of Scripture is to those who approach it with the care it deserves.

just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Luke 1:2

The term 'eyewitnesses' is used only once in all of Scripture, and it highlights individuals like Luke the physician—men of strict integrity, 'attendants on the word.'

It’s the word from which we get 'autopsy' (ow-top'-tace). Isn’t it fitting that a physician would use such a term?

To paraphrase what Luke is saying here, 'We are going to conduct an autopsy on the Word of God'

Why?

To determine the cause of "Life"

And who does Luke lead us to but 'The Word made Flesh,' the manifestation of the Holy Spirit’s power upon a humble servant of the Lord, Mary.

Everything about Jesus is recorded 'in the Word of God,' and it is through servants of the Word, like Luke and John, that we are given the task of understanding him in terms familiar to them at that time.

John was a Hebrew, trained as a Hebrew, understood as a Hebrew, schooled in the Law and the Prophets, making him the best person to show us 'in the beginning'.

So heres the issue:

Do we base our understanding of John 1:1 on the culmination of philosophical musings of men, or do we accept the careful examination (autopsy) of those servants of the Word of God, who were entrusted with recording these truths through the inspiration of God?

You see the interpratation of any text can only happen if we use the skills and techniques used by the writers at the time.

Let me give you an example:

Take Luke 1:5

In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.

Where do we go to learn of this “Course of Abiah”?

Would we go to a council of men to discover the origins of such a group?

No, we wouldn't

The eighth course was in David’s kingdom 1 Chron 24:10

"The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah." It means “Yahweh is father”. (Consider Romans 1:4 and the context of what is about to happen!:gd)

"Abijah" is derived from the Hebrew words "ab" (father) and "Yah" (a shortened form of Yahweh).

Now, I doubt there is a single person here who would disagree with this example. If they were given time they would be able to search the Scripture and discover that David arranged the priestly divisions.

According to 1 Chronicles 24:1-3, King David, along with Zadok the priest and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, divided the descendants of Aaron into 24 groups for service in the Temple.

This example, and I could provide many more like it, teaches us how to study and interpret the Bible using the Bible itself. Yes, extra-biblical tools are very helpful, but we must acknowledge, for those deceived in this forum, that the Bible—the Word of God—is, in and of itself, our teacher, not the works of men (myself included)

Once you approach the Word of God with the preconceived notions of men, you are already at risk of misinterpreting the text.

Now I know you both know this, but I sense many don't.

F2F
 
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APAK

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@Wrangler @APAK

You may already be familiar with what I’m about to show you, so please forgive me if I’m repeating things you already believe and know.

I'm trying to show how important the record of Scripture is to those who approach it with the care it deserves.

just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Luke 1:2

The term 'eyewitnesses' is used only once in all of Scripture, and it highlights individuals like Luke the physician—men of strict integrity, 'attendants on the word.'

It’s the word from which we get 'autopsy' (ow-top'-tace). Isn’t it fitting that a physician would use such a term?

To paraphrase what Luke is saying here, 'We are going to conduct an autopsy on the Word of God'

Why?

To determine the cause of "Life"

And who does Luke lead us to but 'The Word made Flesh,' the manifestation of the Holy Spirit’s power upon a humble servant of the Lord, Mary.

Everything about Jesus is recorded 'in the Word of God,' and it is through servants of the Word, like Luke and John, that we are given the task of understanding him in terms familiar to them at that time.

John was a Hebrew, trained as a Hebrew, understood as a Hebrew, schooled in the Law and the Prophets, making him the best person to show us 'in the beginning'.

So heres the issue:

Do we base our understanding of John 1:1 on the culmination of philosophical musings of men, or do we accept the careful examination (autopsy) of those servants of the Word of God, who were entrusted with recording these truths through the inspiration of God?

You see the interpratation of any text can only happen if we use the skills and techniques used by the writers at the time.

Let me give you an example:

Take Luke 1:5

In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.

Where do we go to learn of this “Course of Abiah”?

Would we go to a council of men to discover the origins of such a group?

No, we wouldn't

The eighth course was in David’s kingdom 1 Chron 24:10

"The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah." It means “Yahweh is father”. (Consider Romans 1:4 and the context of what is about to happen!:gd)

"Abijah" is derived from the Hebrew words "ab" (father) and "Yah" (a shortened form of Yahweh).

Now, I doubt there is a single person here who would disagree with this example. If they were given time they would be able to search the Scripture and discover that David arranged the priestly divisions.

According to 1 Chronicles 24:1-3, King David, along with Zadok the priest and Ahimelech the son of Abiathar, divided the descendants of Aaron into 24 groups for service in the Temple.

This example, and I could provide many more like it, teaches us how to study and interpret the Bible using the Bible itself. Yes, extra-biblical tools are very helpful, but we must acknowledge, for those deceived in this forum, that the Bible—the Word of God—is, in and of itself, our teacher, not the works of men (myself included)

Once you approach the Word of God with the preconceived notions of men, you are already at risk of misinterpreting the text.

Now I know you both know this, but I sense many don't.

F2F
Yes, and this very important subject you bring is part of the study of and using the context, the backgrounds of the writers and when and where they wrote their prose. I'm very wary of this point. I have a mental context checklist as I approach scripture...it serves me well.

And knowing the meaning of a word or even an expression from one language into another can be dangerous if applied in the 'raw' to an application or in a discussion, as I see the credo kid doing quite a lot. His knowledge and wisdom usually stops there.

One has to usually manipulate the 'raw' word for word or expression translation to conform with the language at hand more correctly and precisely else we could have literally Jesus coming down from heaven when it is meant to mean God, his Spirit, who is from heaven, he(personified) /it came down and birthed a human son...
 
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ProDeo

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@Wrangler @APAK - Unless someone has a sound knowledge of the OT writings the Gospel of John is wasted on them!
Like Isa 9:6 perhaps?

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder, // Matt 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

1Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
1Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

See, you don't even need the Gospel of John to proof the child that is born to us is divine.
 
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face2face

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It all about the Triunity in 'all things,' nothing else matters or is of no consequence to them F2F.
It carries with it its own blindness, not unlike the Pharisees, who were condemned for their traditions of men. And notice what the Lord does?

Jesus quotes Isaiah:
  • "You hypocrites!"
  • "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:"
  • "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;"
  • "In vain do they worship me,"
  • "Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
Their examples are everywhere if they look.

F2F
 
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